And the top nations aren't even on the "Axis of Evil."
Indonesia - 74%
Nigeria - 72%
Russia - 71%
Turkey - 71%
The rest of the world could hate us like the French if we strive to create Liberal Democracies throughout the world.
OH NO! HERE GOES MY LOVE FOR LOCKE AND PAINE!
Oh, so the people of these nations enjoy being repressed then?
Most are uneducated, ignorant, and do not have the ablility to learn. I think it is horrible when we support those governments.
The governments Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Indonesia are all supported by the US government and their corporate friends.
They are also supported by every other world power. It is wrong. We need to push Liberal Democratic reforms in each of those nations.
And if they pick radical Islam or another form of government that is hostile to US ""interests""? Do you propose the US government pull another 9-11-75 to ""fix"" that problem?
I don''t think you understand what a Liberal Democracy is. It isn''t just one ""vote"" and that is it. We push Democratic institutions: Bill of Rights, Court system, Rule of Law, constitution, seperate power, etc.
So, we cram our values on a people rather than let them pick their own? Sounds suspiciously like 9-11-75 or any other time the US actively attemtped to prevent a populace from picking the ""wrong"" government.
Yes. Our values are better than theirs. Liberal Democracy is better for them and the rest of the world. They are free to worship as they want and able to persue happiness.
It is nothing like 9-11-75. That is when we get rid of one tyrant for another.
"Ulairi" wrote:Our values are better than theirs.
Dude, you are on fire tonight. And I know I''ve heard this somewhere before...errr...let me think...there was this monarch dude...and a skinny guy wearing white cloth...oh this is going to bother me all night.
No. I''m not PC and do not believe in moral equivalency.
"Ulairi" wrote:Our values are better than theirs.
Dude, you are on fire tonight. And I know I''ve heard this somewhere before...errr...let me think...there was this monarch dude...and a skinny guy wearing white cloth...oh this is going to bother me all night.
Our values being that the individual has the right to pursue his or her life to its fullest potential (or even the rights to not, btw), economic freedoms, and the rights of self-expression/beliefs.
Yeah, our values are much better then theirs.
Are we telling others how to live? Not really, we want them to tell themselves how to live, and give them the tools to do it well.
Give a man a fish vs teaching him how to fish and so on.
Part of what makes our values worthwhile is the difficult road we had to travel to make those values a part of our culture. Without that cultural growth, I doubt they will stick for a civilization so dramatically different than our own.
Just installing democracy, like some kind of cultural machine, is destined to fail. I hope I''m wrong, but there''s no evidence that I would be.
Part of what makes our values worthwhile is the difficult road we had to travel to make those values a part of our culture. Without that cultural growth, I doubt they will stick for a civilization so dramatically different than our own.
Just installing democracy, like some kind of cultural machine, is destined to fail. I hope I''m wrong, but there''s no evidence that I would be.
Ohhhh, philosophy! Good.
Look at the Stockholm (sp) syndrom. Prisoners come to be attached to their guards. Does that make it right? If they are innocent don''t they deserve to be free?
Plato''s allagory of the cave: Men born into chains and forced to watch shadows on the wall, belive those shadows to be reality. One day one of them breaks free only to learn there is a sun and the images he''s been staring at his whole life are only shadows. Plato argues that if that man tries to convience the others about their ''percieved'' reality, they would rather kill him, then be forced to believe their whole life was a lie. (much like you are suggesting, to paraphase).
The argument being is it better to allow citizens a worse life, if thats what they''ve come to expect, or do you challange them to lead better, enriching lives that will ultimately lead to the freedoms deserving of human beings? Even if at first they don''t want (or more importantly, don''t know) any better?
Just installing democracy, like some kind of cultural machine, is destined to fail. I hope I''m wrong, but there''s no evidence that I would be.
Worked for the Western world.
Because they installed it themselves, not having it crammed down their throats by an occupation force.
Germany, Japapn (They are apart of the Western world in a ""sense"").
Now that they have the freedom to choose, Germany has made it clear that they do not choose the US. Japan will side with the US so long as North Korea is beligerent. Hopefully, they''ll take a lead in dealing with Kim Jong Il since it seems the Administration is giving the DPRK a free pass on nuclear weapons.
a free pass? How?
Where''s the demand to let in weapons inspectors? Where''s the redeployment of military forces? Where''s the tough talk? So far, all we have is lip service, more attention paid to Iran''s WMDs, and talks of a troop scale down in South Korea.
Face it. While the Administration knocked over one petty dictator with little to no WMDs, they let another dictator admittedly stockpile nuclear weapons. Perhaps it is time for the government to explain why Saddam Hussein was a bigger danger to the US than Kim Jong Il, a man who now sits in striking distance of US soil with the worst weapon ever designed by man.
Go back and re-read the news.
Worked for the Western world.
No. No it didn''t. It may have worked for the US, but it''s been crap for the rest of us in America.
I agree with Elysium, and it''s something I''ve been thinking about for the past month. It''s useless that the US tries to ""Fix"" other countries. They have to fix themselves. Economic aid may be nice, but I think everyone needs a revolution.
[quote=""Mex""]
Worked for the Western world.
No. No it didn''t. It may have worked for the US, but it''s been crap for the rest of us in America. [quote]
Canada is doing fine. Mexico''s problem isn''t Liberal Democracy. There is no reason why Mexico should not be a rich nation. They have plenty of national resources, vacation spots, and the right tools to get a rich nation.
The argument being is it better to allow citizens a worse life, if thats what they''ve come to expect, or do you challange them to lead better, enriching lives that will ultimately lead to the freedoms deserving of human beings?
We aren''t challenging them. We''re just trying to do it for them (and a pretty piss poor job of it we''re doing). To challenge would be a diplomatic procedure, and as I''ve said before that''s a fine direction to take. The Plato story was nice. Not really applicable, but nice. It''s really noble to want everything to go from Hussein Iraq to democracy in even one generation (much less a matter of years), but it''s historically ludicrous.
I stand behind what I said above. The pride we feel in our culture stems from the centuries of work we put into it. That will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, even remotely begin to happen in an American created Iraqi government. You will get a lot of terrorists and a civilian population that feels oppressed, so if that''s the goal, then we''re on target.
[quote=""Ulairi""][quote=""Mex""]
Worked for the Western world.
No. No it didn''t. It may have worked for the US, but it''s been crap for the rest of us in America.
Canada is doing fine. Mexico''s problem isn''t Liberal Democracy. There is no reason why Mexico should not be a rich nation. They have plenty of national resources, vacation spots, and the right tools to get a rich nation.
I sure as hell hope you are not stating that Canada had democracy installed by someone other than Canadians. We fought for our democracy several times and cut our ties with Britian because as a nation that is what we wanted.
That is why democracy works in Canada.
So I will repeat what Mex and Elysium have already mentioned. You cannot force a way of living on anyone, they must choose it themselves. If the past has not taught you this lesson yet than I suggest you go and reread your history books!
I sure as hell hope you are not stating that Canada had democracy installed by someone other than Canadians. We fought for our democracy several times and cut our ties with Britian because as a nation that is what we wanted.
I was saying Liberal Democracy has worked well for Canada.
Has it worked well for France too?
And the top nations aren''t even on the ""Axis of Evil.""
Indonesia - 74%
Nigeria - 72%
Russia - 71%
Turkey - 71%
Ahh... they''re all a bunch of godless commies anyway.
Probably dirty, too.
Actually responding here, I''m gonna say it''s a lot more telling that more often than not that the citizens of these same countries usually feel quite postive about the citizens of the US. It''s nice that they acknowledge that we as a people are not entirely to blame.
Ahh... they''re all a bunch of godless commies anyway.
Probably dirty, too.
Read the whole study. 70% of Russians like us. So 71% think we''re a military threat while 70% like us.
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