Bioshock 2 Catch-All

Umm... It looked to me more like the player is following Big Sister around. Who might have been escorted?

Then a cut to another point in the game, fighting splicers. Graphics look a little more detailed, and gameplay does look kind of fun, but this initial footage doesn't look to really bring anything new to the table, gameplay-wise...

My interest may begin to wane if this keeps up....

EDIT: DUURRP! I watched the footage again and noticed the Little Sister in the middle of the Splicer fight... THAT'S the escort mission you were talking about!

This game is the Treyarch to Infinity Ward of the Bioshock franchise.

Podunk wrote:

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I was skeptical of the original Bioshock until the demo knocked me on my ass.

Hey, I'm just getting a bad feeling about what I'm seeing so far. Expecting a game to be a disappointment is something I'm more than happy to end up being wrong about. My only loss is, well, yet another $60 out of my pocket during the fourth quarter.

Duoae wrote:

This game is the Treyarch to Infinity Ward of the Bioshock franchise.

I wish.

I'm happy there's going to be a BioShock 2, but I'm quite divided on how 2K Marin is going about it.

On the plus side, I'm glad it's not going to be a prequel. While I can see a prequel working from a story point-of-view, I'd find it very boring. We already know what happened to Rapture and how it happened. Giving me the ability to play through it isn't going to reveal a lot of new information. There are ways of fixing that, I suppose, but I'm not sure it can be done well enough without seeming contrived. It would solve the multiple endings of BioShock 1, of course, but then so would a parallell story.

Another point I have to concede to them is Big Sister. It sounded awful at first, but the little bits they show in the gameplay trailer look interesting. This can work!

The atmosphere appears to be intact, but they really had no choice about getting this right. BioShock was bigbig on atmosphere - to divert from that would be madness. Having the outside ocean play a bigger role is a plus in my book. The deep, dark depths are just as forboding as the crumbling city situated within them.

Now on the negative side, I'm not crazy about being a Big Daddy, even if it is the supposed "first one". To me it sounds like they're sacrificing too many ideas from the first game just to have you walk around with a drill on your right arm. Big Daddies certainly didn't appear to be very smart back then and their purpose was singular - protect the Little Sisters. Now suddenly there's one who can switch weapons, use plasmids and receive radio messages from NPCs. Why can't you be a splicer instead? They have a good reason for being there, they can use plasmids, and - as the first game demonstrated - they're not all criminally insane, which leaves some room for character development.

kuddles wrote:

Hey, I'm just getting a bad feeling about what I'm seeing so far. Expecting a game to be a disappointment is something I'm more than happy to end up being wrong about.

Yeah I am going to go into it with very low expectations.

kuddles wrote:
Duoae wrote:

This game is the Treyarch to Infinity Ward of the Bioshock franchise.

I wish. :)

I dunno, i mean, i'm not excited by it - the game looks entirely mediocre, a revision of what was done by the 'A' team (Infinity Ward) and IMO is what the Treyarch CoD games have been: entirely serviceable but ultimately standard fare.

I think what bioshock2 is missing for me is a story hook. Before it released they told us of bioshock1s world of Ryan's underwater utopia gone to ruin, and all that happened in it before and during the first game (besides the 'system shock spiritual successor link). They have a great setting, but right now I have no idea why I'd be interested in the events they want us to play through, as far as I know the Rapture scenario is 'spent', although with new areas they would imply there are new developments as well.

Duoae wrote:

I dunno, i mean, i'm not excited by it - the game looks entirely mediocre, a revision of what was done by the 'A' team (Infinity Ward) and IMO is what the Treyarch CoD games have been: entirely serviceable but ultimately standard fare.

Oh, I was cheekily referring to what I assumed was common knowledge about my opinion around here: That Treyarch is much better developer than Infinity Ward.

kuddles wrote:
Duoae wrote:

I dunno, i mean, i'm not excited by it - the game looks entirely mediocre, a revision of what was done by the 'A' team (Infinity Ward) and IMO is what the Treyarch CoD games have been: entirely serviceable but ultimately standard fare.

Oh, I was cheekily referring to what I assumed was common knowledge about my opinion around here: That Treyarch is much better developer than Infinity Ward.

I agree on a whole, but you have to give Infinity Ward this much at least-- they have made the best of the CoD series. On the other hand, Treyarch has made the best of the Tony Hawk series, as well as some good Spider-Man games. I heard Quantum of Solace was a good game as well (albeit short), but I never played it, so I can't say for sure. Plus, Wolfenstein! WOLFENSTEIN!!

I'm still excited about this game. The best parts of the original were the environments and the combat. The story was good, but it crapped out after the big reveal. If all the sequel offers is another chance to wander around Rapture and play with plasmids, with a few interesting tweaks, I'll be satisfied.
I'm also a little surprised at how negative people are being about the protagonist. He's not just a Big Daddy, he's the first Big Daddy. The prototype. There's plenty of potential for an incredibly rich backstory there. Who was this man? How/why did he become a Big Daddy? What role did he play in the fall of Rapture? Besides, it sounds like fun. The Big Daddies were the most impressive enemy in the first game, and now you get to be one - something the first game promised but failed to deliver.
Sure, maybe it'll suck, but I'm not ready to dismiss the game based on what I saw in one short gameplay trailer.

kuddles wrote:

Oh, I was cheekily referring to what I assumed was common knowledge about my opinion around here: That Treyarch is much better developer than Infinity Ward.

I've only played the CoD games by Treyarch so i can't comment on their other games' quality. It sounds like they're a more rounded development studio, i'll give them that.

muttonchop wrote:

I'm also a little surprised at how negative people are being about the protagonist. He's not just a Big Daddy, he's the first Big Daddy. The prototype. There's plenty of potential for an incredibly rich backstory there. Who was this man? How/why did he become a Big Daddy? What role did he play in the fall of Rapture? Besides, it sounds like fun.
Sure, maybe it'll suck, but I'm not ready to dismiss the game based on what I saw in one short gameplay trailer.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why i'm not looking forward to the game. I mean, in the first game you traipse around a whole lot of Bioshock and it almost gets destroyed in the process. How come you didn't encounter this 'first' big daddy? Where the hell was he all this time? If they 'pull him out of cryo-sleep' in Bioshock 2 i wouldn't be surprised.

The Big Daddies were the most impressive enemy in the first game, and now you get to be one - something the first game promised but failed to deliver.

Seriously, they were lumbering guys who had fixed weapons and no brains. They were cool to watch when defending the little sisters from splicers but they were either easy or just took a while whittling down their health by backpeddling and shooting them.

I'm also not convinced by the switching weapons and the 'plasmid resistant' suit (the flames were going through the glove! and the drill was 'mounted' on the arm for a reason, how else are you going to provide the counter force to be able to actually do any damage?). And maybe i'm missing something but you pretty much got the big daddy experience minus the weapons and the lunge... it's not that different. Plus the whole protecting the little sister while she's harvesting thing.... yeah, i hated that part.

muttonchop wrote:

I'm also a little surprised at how negative people are being about the protagonist. He's not just a Big Daddy, he's the first Big Daddy. The prototype.

I'm also negative about that specific distinction. It appears that for all intents and purposes, this "prototype" is superior to the "production" model. He can use plasmids and switch weapons, for instance. I know that Hollywood likes to think that "prototype" means "super awesome version that was too powerful to mass produce," but that's not really how it works. If the prototype is better than the production model, why didn't they just use the prototype AS a prototype for the production model?

You should probably think of it as the "concept" model, not the prototype. You know, like those concept cars that they are always showing at auto shows that are far more impressive than anything that ever comes off the assembly line.

The under-water effects in that trailer looked pretty damn neat.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

The under-water effects in that trailer looked pretty damn neat.

Yeah, definitely better than the exterior view effects from the first game (read: make everything foggy and wobbly).

LobsterMobster wrote:

I'm also negative about that specific distinction. It appears that for all intents and purposes, this "prototype" is superior to the "production" model. He can use plasmids and switch weapons, for instance. I know that Hollywood likes to think that "prototype" means "super awesome version that was too powerful to mass produce," but that's not really how it works. If the prototype is better than the production model, why didn't they just use the prototype AS a prototype for the production model?

But the prototype could have been a much more general-purpose model, before they differentiated them into more specific roles, i.e. Rosies and Bouncers. On top of that, he's been around for years, so he's had plenty of time to improve himself with plasmids, gear upgrades, etc. Besides, in the case of the Big Daddies, any prototype probably would be more powerful - much of the work done on them was to make them stupid and obedient, so it's possible that the first version was just a guy bulked up with plasmids and fused into a diving suit without all the crazy behavioural conditioning and programmed pheromone responses.

Duoae wrote:

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why i'm not looking forward to the game. I mean, in the first game you traipse around a whole lot of Bioshock and it almost gets destroyed in the process. How come you didn't encounter this 'first' big daddy? Where the hell was he all this time? If they 'pull him out of cryo-sleep' in Bioshock 2 i wouldn't be surprised.

Judging by the introductory bathysphere scene, Rapture is a pretty big place. You only visit a handful of locations in Bioshock. Who's to say someone in a different area would have even been aware of what went on in the first game? Most of the damage caused probably wouldn't have been visible from one of the other structures.

Anyways I agree it's not necessarily the best choice for a protagonist, but I think it's got some potential.

muttonchop wrote:

But the prototype could have been a much more general-purpose model, before they differentiated them into more specific roles, i.e. Rosies and Bouncers. On top of that, he's been around for years, so he's had plenty of time to improve himself with plasmids, gear upgrades, etc. Besides, in the case of the Big Daddies, any prototype probably would be more powerful - much of the work done on them was to make them stupid and obedient, so it's possible that the first version was just a guy bulked up with plasmids and fused into a diving suit without all the crazy behavioural conditioning and programmed pheromone responses.

It's more difficult and expensive to make something modular and general purpose than specialized, and even if they decided to make specialized ones after they already had the prototype, those would be better at their respective tasks than the general purpose model. And they wouldn't jump directly to production; they'd make specialized prototypes and chances are they'd modify the prototype they already had into one or the other.

I don't know enough about plasmids to know if Big Daddies can use them or not but it seems counter-productive to let them use them. Their purpose is as part of a mechanism for reclaiming used Adam, not consuming it themselves.

I will buy that the mind control stuff came later but it strikes me as irresponsible and dangerous for them to just let him go on with free will. Big Daddies have no ties to the rest of society. Seems to me they'd either test the mind control stuff on him till they got it right or just right-out kill him.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying improbable, cliched, and Hollywood almost always makes the "prototype" superior to all other versions.

LobsterMobster wrote:

It's more difficult and expensive to make something modular and general purpose than specialized, and even if they decided to make specialized ones after they already had the prototype, those would be better at their respective tasks than the general purpose model. And they wouldn't jump directly to production; they'd make specialized prototypes and chances are they'd modify the prototype they already had into one or the other.

Yeah, but in this case the main difference between a general-purpose Big Daddy and a specialized one is whether you give him a rivet gun or weld it to his arm. I just meant it could explain the weapon-switching.

It could. I'm not saying it couldn't. I'm just saying it's not satisfying to me.

LobsterMobster wrote:

It could. I'm not saying it couldn't. I'm just saying it's not satisfying to me. :)

I'm not entirely satisfied either, I just think if they handle it well it could be interesting. It's definitely a risky decision though.

My issue is why would any Big Daddy even have to make a moral choice (harvest Little Sisters or adopt them)? Their purpose, first and foremost, is to protect little Sisters (thus the name, "Big Daddy"). I'm with Lobster on this one-- it seems too cliched of a protagonist to hold my interest, and this makes me sad. I would rather they follow the line of thought from the teaser site-- It would be interesting if the story revolved around a detective investigating the disappearances of little girls (abducted by the Big Sister), eventually leading the detective to Rapture (somehow, I don't know), where he comes across Tennenbaum. There, she gives him a suit reminiscent of the Big Daddies so he might survive the ever-deteriorating state of Rapture, and perhaps traverse the ocean floor to gain access to other parts of Rapture that have become isolated with decay. That would actually make a cool game. In fact, I'm going to claim the rights to that game idea/story. 2K can't have it-- they can keep their stupid "first" Big Daddy.

I'm sure they'll describe this "First" Big Daddy's story as having escaped the labs before termination as a failed attempt at creating the BD's we all know and love, but at first glance, the collaboration with Tennenbaum and the fight against Big Sister seems too far-fetched. Unless, of course, they take the whole turn-the-story-on-a-dime theme from the first game, and have Tennenbaum collaborate with Firsty, only to reveal that she's been luring him into a trap-- a trap in which Big Sister is involved, being another "failed" attempt at creating the Big Daddies we are familiar with. Perhaps they are both meant to kill each other, so Tennenbaum won't have to worry about trying to herself? Being a sequel that doesn't appear to involve the original dev team, I'm sure we are going to see a game and story entirely derivative of the first, only to cash in on the success of the first (ie, Guitar Hero III : Guitar Hero II).

I'm going to stop with all the conjecture, now.

I'll add to that, WipEout, that it would be infinitely cooler and more logical for "Big Sister" to be Tennenbaum herself.

That was my first thought when I saw the Big Sister-- that Tennenbaum made the suit to protect the Little Sisters... *sigh*

I think that this would make too much in Bioshock 2 story hang off of the original game's details. Such a twist would be simply too unfriendly to the players unfamiliar with the first installment, and getting acquainted with Rapture world all anew with Bioshock 2. No matter how few and far between such players would be, the storywriters have to take them into account.

LobsterMobster wrote:
adam.greenbrier wrote:
Thirteenth wrote:

Debut Gameplay

:yawn:

I agree. Love the environments (again) but other than that, doesn't look nearly as engaging as the first.

Not sure how I feel about being able to switch between the drill and rivet gun on the same hand. It looked to me like those things were permanent parts of the suit.

For me, environments were what made the first game. Beyond the twist, which was nice, was secondary to my enjoyment of the environments. The gameplay came third in terms of why I loved the game. An advantage of cheap gaming is that when the price finally falls I can play the game involved in the hype of some other game I’m not playing. I think that this benefits from nostalgia and a bit of hype, but the environments are what I think really made this game special.

Aaron D. wrote:
Certis wrote:
kuddles wrote:
Aaron D. wrote:

I don't know, this just looks like BioShock 1.5...like an expansion pack or a mod project or something.

That's the vibe I'm starting to get...

Yeah, I've read a lot of impressions from the trailer and there's quite a number of people questioning why there's a sequel at all, esp. since this first trailer gives "more of the same" vibes…Who knows? Maybe they'll end up surprising us in the end.

Just happened to quote these , but I’m really surprised how many people seem dismissive of the game based on what, 1 minute of gameplay? Also, I ultimately agree with Aaron—it could be good. It could suck though, sure. We really don’t know much about the game. A month ago we knew nothing, and now fans of the first are willing to summarily dismiss this. It’s just odd to me how quickly a tide turns.

Duoae wrote:
kuddles wrote:
Duoae wrote:

This game is the Treyarch to Infinity Ward of the Bioshock franchise.

I wish. :)

I dunno, i mean, i'm not excited by it - the game looks entirely mediocre, a revision of what was done by the 'A' team (Infinity Ward) and IMO is what the Treyarch CoD games have been: entirely serviceable but ultimately standard fare.

I can understand being disappointed by a premise, but how does 1 minute that seems similar to the original seem mediocre? You’re not alone, must seem to be skeptical. I just find the confident opinion that this will suck to be odd and not based on content players have seen.

muttonchop wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

It's more difficult and expensive to make something modular and general purpose than specialized, and even if they decided to make specialized ones after they already had the prototype, those would be better at their respective tasks than the general purpose model. And they wouldn't jump directly to production; they'd make specialized prototypes and chances are they'd modify the prototype they already had into one or the other.

Yeah, but in this case the main difference between a general-purpose Big Daddy and a specialized one is whether you give him a rivet gun or weld it to his arm. I just meant it could explain the weapon-switching.

It could be the original Big Daddy destroyed it’s maker and many others in rapture, therefore all after were given more limitations so they could be better controlled. I don’t really care about speculating on the plot either way, just wanted to add that a prototype can be more powerful (esp if it proves to be unreliable and needs to be scaled back in future iterations).

demonbox wrote:

It could be the original Big Daddy destroyed it’s maker and many others in rapture, therefore all after were given more limitations so they could be better controlled. I don’t really care about speculating on the plot either way, just wanted to add that a prototype can be more powerful (esp if it proves to be unreliable and needs to be scaled back in future iterations).

I seem to remember one or two of Dr. Suchong's audio logs alluding to the fact that their first tests of Big Daddies were pretty dangerous for the people involved, so this is plausible. They never set anything up like an abandoned prototype or one that "got away", though, as far as I can remember.

demonbox wrote:
Duoae wrote:
kuddles wrote:
Duoae wrote:

This game is the Treyarch to Infinity Ward of the Bioshock franchise.

I wish. :)

I dunno, i mean, i'm not excited by it - the game looks entirely mediocre, a revision of what was done by the 'A' team (Infinity Ward) and IMO is what the Treyarch CoD games have been: entirely serviceable but ultimately standard fare.

I can understand being disappointed by a premise, but how does 1 minute that seems similar to the original seem mediocre? You’re not alone, must seem to be skeptical. I just find the confident opinion that this will suck to be odd and not based on content players have seen.

Maybe you're reading too much into my statement. Mediocre doesn't mean bad... i did say it would be "entirely serviceable but ultimately standard fare". I suppose a movie comparison would be Toy Story to Toy Story 2. There's nothing wrong with TS2 but the magic seemed to be gone. It just didn't click with me the same way the original did.

Minarchist wrote:

I seem to remember one or two of Dr. Suchong's audio logs alluding to the fact that their first tests of Big Daddies were pretty dangerous for the people involved, so this is plausible. They never set anything up like an abandoned prototype or one that "got away", though, as far as I can remember.

Wasn't Suchong killed by a Big Daddy? There's a corpse with a drill bit sticking out of it, I recall that much.

SpacePPoliceman wrote:
Minarchist wrote:

I seem to remember one or two of Dr. Suchong's audio logs alluding to the fact that their first tests of Big Daddies were pretty dangerous for the people involved, so this is plausible. They never set anything up like an abandoned prototype or one that "got away", though, as far as I can remember.

Wasn't Suchong killed by a Big Daddy? There's a corpse with a drill bit sticking out of it, I recall that much.

Yeah, he slapped a Little Sister who was annoying him. I think there are other audio logs alluding to more before that, though.

WipEout wrote:

Being a sequel that doesn't appear to involve the original dev team, I'm sure we are going to see a game and story entirely derivative of the first, only to cash in on the success of the first (ie, Guitar Hero III : Guitar Hero II).

2K Marin is made up mainly of the original Bioshock dev team. Same team, different creative director. It would be more accurate to make an analogy to God of War 1 and 2 than Guitar Hero 2 and 3.