Batman: Arkham City, Dark Souls, Orcs Must Die, Sticky Game Mechanics, Your Emails, Twitters and more!
This week Cory, Julian, Allen and Shawn talk sticky game mechanics and hit a whole bunch of your Twitters and Emails.
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Music credits:
Intro/Outtro Music - Ian Dorsch, Willowtree Audioworks
Main Theme - Batman: Arkham City - http://community.batmanarkhamcity.com/ - 35:33
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I disagree totally about Dark Souls, if anything the combat is methodical. It rewards paying attention to the enemies and the environment and usually allows you one mistake in a combat before it sends you back to the bonfire.
The problem is that every game up until now has been lying to you. You never saved the world or rescued the princess, the game pulled its punches and laughed at you behind your back once you walked away.
Dark Souls loves you and would never lie to you about your abilities, that's why it feels the need to stomp you into the ground when it senses weakness.
In the last year Dark Souls have provided the only moments where I jumped up off the couch, fist in the air, because I finally beat a boss.
I seem to remember a big discussion 2 years ago when Arkham Asylum came out about how much some of you (i don't remember who...maybe gaald?) just wished Assassin's Creed would steal this A.A's combat system in favor of their own because it was so much better... and now we're talking about how after only its second outing Batman's system is no longer interesting, meanwhile Assassin's is about to release its 4th game with (relatively) the same system. I haven't played anything past Assassin's Creed 2 yet so maybe things have changed but I just couldn't help but mention it.
Also all that Dark Souls talk was really entertaining. Demiurge I hope you keep trying.
imbiginjapan on Vanquish:The difficulty is punishing but it knows enough to punish me while wearing stiletto heels and a push up bra, so I forgive it.
In re the philosophy and gaming question: Is he reading Brainy Gamer? Is he reading other gaming blogs? There's a whole world of intelligent gaming discussion out there and while it may not be the best way to make your way in the journalistic portion of the industry (paying-wise), there is a definitely a subset of individuals who are held above as more "philosophical" than others.
Besides, it's not always about your faculties, it's about how much you're willing to work for it.
Edit: Two CC threads in a row have now mentioned Michael Abbott and Brainy Gamer.
How did I live before digital distribution of old, cheap games?
MilkmanDanimal wrote:You did live before digital distribution of old, cheap games. Now you just play games.
I am feeling the same way about the Arkham City combat, Shawn. I loved it the first time when I played Arkham Asylum, but I can't seem to get that rewarding feeling this time around. I think it is because, and it may be the same case with you, that I am coming off 80 hours of playing Dark Souls. Since the combat is so tactical, strategic, and methodical it was strange for me to switch to Batman's two-button rhythm system. I probably just need a few more hours with the game. The combat is pretty similar to Assassin's Creed and I have become burnt out on that series, so that may be a factor.
In regards to the Catwoman DLC and the future direction of games business, retail practices, I'll just say this: "I can't wait to pay for Xbox Live, pay for the online pass, pay for the multiplayer Elite subscription, and pay for the DLC season pass. And then pay for it again so my kids or siblings can play that content on their own profiles for multiplayer and achievements. Damn it." I know that is definitely an exaggeration, but I can definitely see these kinds of micro-costs being a common, pervasive standard for future games.
"A pirate I was meant to be, trim the sails and roam the sea!"
And done. Good show, guys. I like that you're doing a livecast of the show now as it seems to keep energy slightly higher. Or so it seems.
How did I live before digital distribution of old, cheap games?
MilkmanDanimal wrote:You did live before digital distribution of old, cheap games. Now you just play games.
I think I'm gonna have to get Dark Souls next paycheck. There's no doubt that my ego could stand a little deflation.
On Allen's point where Arkham City hand-holds you more: there are a few instances where you have to figure things out for yourself outside of the Riddler puzzles, of course. When they introduced the infrared goggles to the Predator section, I had the crazy idea of using the shock gun on the henchman with the goggles. Sure enough, it disabled the goggles and I was patting myself on the back for my ingenuity.
Oh, and I definitely want to hear everyone's reactions to the ending.
Edit: And it's not Nolan's Batman you're thinking of, it's Frank Miller's Goddamn Batman.
I wish you guys would stop encouraging him.
EvilHomer3k wrote:You are an evil, evil person.
Baron Of Hell wrote:YOU VILLAIN!
Links:
Go Make Me A Sandwich
Other great sites that look at gender and minorities in games:
Not You Mama's Gamer
The Border House
Yesterday's Fringe Buster column, mentioned on the show.
Words... are a big deal.
Jill Lapore wrote:Editing is one of the great inventions of civilization.
Me too. The various complaints about the story and writing made me sad because overall, I think Arkham City has a MUCH better story than Asylum. It can be hard to see how it all fits together before the ending, however.
It could be worse—muttonchop could be right too.
I've finished the story at this point, and I'm still not swayed. Clearly we need to have a conversation about all of this.
"$10 - Exclusive Sean-cam where he just shakes his head, over and over." From Pyro's Kickstarter, "Endless Pit of Human Misery Livestream"
Well for starters, I'm not convinced that Arkham Asylum had a particularly good story. It was very well-executed, but at its core:
Arkham City, on the other hand:
It could be worse—muttonchop could be right too.
To be fair, I agree with your stance on Asylum, as the magic was definitely in the execution and not the plot. But I think you're reading a *lot* into City's ending.
In fact, maybe that's why I felt City fell short - I don't feel like the execution was there. Which is probably why I don't see the details that I think you're reading into City's storyline.
I'll take your post under advisement, though. We're planning a spoiler section for the game and I'm curious what the others will think regarding your take. Have a hunch I'll be the only one unsatisfied.
"$10 - Exclusive Sean-cam where he just shakes his head, over and over." From Pyro's Kickstarter, "Endless Pit of Human Misery Livestream"
Probably, mostly I'm just trying to translate my emotional response into words and that doesn't always come across very well. All I know is that City's ending felt a lot more powerful to me than Asylum's. I can agree that the execution of Asylum's story was more consistent, but it was also a lot less ambitious than City both in terms of scope and complexity.
It could be worse—muttonchop could be right too.
Corey, as a fan of Street Fighter you should understand the way melee combat works in Dark Souls. If you commit to an uppercut and it misses, you will be exposed. Its all about identifying animations quickly and seeing your opportunities : )
I also thought Harley Quinn was kinda hot in AA. Here's an... interesting video on the motion capture in the first Batman game.
Michael
I will concede that City's ending affected me since I was a fan of The Animated Series from day one back in the 90s, but...they still did it in a way that even a fan of the franchise from the 1940s would still feel somewhat emotional (what emotion I'm still trying to figure out) about what happened. There was a sense of finality to it unlike anything I've felt even reading a mainstream comic. As I mentioned in the Arkham City thread...
*:
**:
I'll concede Shawn's receptiveness and write it off to the gameplay not being enough to draw him in, but if you're like me and a fan of the Batman franchise since near birth, this is one of the best Bat experiences you'll ever have. Same Bat time, same Bat console.
Oh, one last thing, Cory; not to spoil anything, but the Catwoman bits aren't really that integral to the main plot. The bat and the cat's paths only cross about three times, which is about the same number of times you take control of her during the course of the main storyline.
I wish you guys would stop encouraging him.
EvilHomer3k wrote:You are an evil, evil person.
Baron Of Hell wrote:YOU VILLAIN!
I never fail to find it alarming how quickly the folks on the podcast-- especially Corey-- are willing to throw away consumer choice just because you don't want to have to put on pants.
I've never understood how you can reconcile your mistrust of Gamestop as a corporation with your willingness to basically concede all control of your purchases to Valve, which is at its core just another corporation. It's like saying you think Exxon is raping the environment, so you want to give regulatory control to BP.
The Plants Versus Zombies steam patch and the Portal ending retrofit are just two examples of warning shots that people have completely ignored. Valve buries complete control over your purchases into an EULA that nobody reads, but we're supposed to trust them because so far they've only made changes for legal or marketing reasons. And when your copy of Left 4 Dead 2 becomes a CCG because they want to do a promotion for Left 4 Dead 3, I'm sure that will be completely fine with everyone.
Oh but Valve would NEVER do THAT. Just because they reserve the right to do it, have no legal obstacle and effectively have a monopoly on the digital market (Do Impulse and GOG really count as major competitors?)... well they're just run by generally nice people.
I like Gamestop. I like being able to buy used games. Am I thrilled that in-game content is being locked out, or must be purchased seperately if I buy used? No. But I'd rather have the option to decide for myself whether that content is worth the difference between the cost of a new game and a used game than to be stuck with a system where I'm buying something ephemeral that disappears at the whim of someone I've never met in some office building somewhere.
And if I don't want to wear pants, Amazon sells used games too. Can I play them instantly? No. Am I so impatient that I must have an entertainment product instantly? No again.
I realize I'm nowhere near a majority, though, and I have to resolve myself to the fact that Digital Only Distribution is coming and I can't do a damn thing about it.
Jonman Wrote:
Yes, you can cancel Darksiders, but only by using your Sony Golds. Which, while pretty good, aren't a patch on Zelda.
I'm A Steam Curator!
I find it alarming how quickly they throw away a good discussion to avoid spoilers.
Words... are a big deal.
Jill Lapore wrote:Editing is one of the great inventions of civilization.
It's not the fact that they're corporations, but rather that Gamestop has a long, long history of behavior that PC gamers do not find acceptable. Conversely, Valve has a long, long history of behavior the PC gamers find awesome. If people have a problem giving money to big companies, they can always buy indie, I suppose. But if I'm giving my money to a big company I'll give it to the one that's offered the best product, the best service, and the best treatment of gamers. That's Valve, full stop.
The fact remains, however, that we all have choices as consumers. You can support Gamestop all you want, and I can keep throwing cash into Gabe's money pit. (Even Valve sometimes doesn't know why we keep giving them money.) We can all tout the virtues of our preferred platforms until the cows come home, but you'll keep buying from Gamestop and I'll keep buying from Valve. And that's okay.
I wouldn't say they've been ignored; they get brought up on a regular basis. The typical response (and mine as well) is that these same things get pushed in patches all the time. You can choose not to update games automatically if you don't want to. And while it's beside the point, I have both of these games and these changes did not bother me in the slightest.
Your L4D comment is a bit of a slippery slope argument, but I for one would play a L4D CCG.
Michael
I have some input on the Digital Distribution markets. I don't know if any of you are familiar with a company out of Australia called Green Man gaming; they are allowing you to sell the game back to them as a digital only copy. So; just because physical media may die I suspect we will not see the death of the used gaming market. Then; there is the recent Impulse converting to Gamestop PC Gaming website. They are not (yet) allowing you to sell back digital PC downloads; but you can use your in store credit for when you trade in meatspace games for PS3, 360, Wii, etc... to purchase PC games on the Gamestop PC client. How does that make everyone feel; so you're 360 gaming addiction can now go to covering your PC impulse purchasing. *ha*
No gaming until kitties get dinner. This rule shall not be questioned or broken. =^.^=
Steam/PSN/NNID - blondish83
Not quite, you can choose to not update yet. You can go offline and make steam blind to the internet (firewall it) so it doesn't know about updates (which is only of so much use for an online game), but once steam knows about an update, you can only delay when it gets it. When steam is online and an update is released, it's going to download and apply it either right at that moment or whenever you launch it next.
It's not like an 'old' game where you had to manually download and apply the patch, or could go to a specific version. For steam there is only one version, the latest version, which is how it was designed.
All that said, I had a load of people shout at me when I said that in another thread.
The good guy I was talking about in my email was everyone's favorite one-handed Arkham Asylum guard, Aaron Cash, who gets in one (maybe two?) b**** thrown toward Harley before he disappears from the plot. He's not exactly a shining force of good, but he is a good guy.
As for Arkham City vs. Arkham Asylum, I thought that the open world may have muddled the message of AC. AA may have had a less sprawling, epic story, but I thought the tightness of the experience made it play out far better than AC's story did.
I wanted to add, in Pyro's defense, that a lot of IGF games are historically submitted (and even awarded prizes) without being finished or publicly released. It's sort of tough to follow, as the awards are less "this is a good game" and more "we anticipate that this will be a good game."
Words... are a big deal.
Jill Lapore wrote:Editing is one of the great inventions of civilization.
They're not "just two examples", they're the ONLY two examples anyone ever brings up whenever we re-hash the "is Steam an evil monopoly?" argument.
The Plants Versus Zombies argument is ridiculous because it was PopCap that implemented the change - Steam was just the distribution mechanism. Any other download service could have done the same, or PopCap could have built an auto-update mechanism directly into PvZ, but because they chose to use Steam that apparently makes Valve the bad guys.
And the Portal ending? They extended the original ending by what, 5 seconds? Over 3 years after the initial release? Oh, the humanity.
Can we please retire these examples? They're terrible, and they do nothing whatsoever to further your argument. Any game can be designed in a way that allows it to automatically receive updates, Steam just makes it easier. This is not a Steam-specific problem.
It could be worse—muttonchop could be right too.
Shawn was very close when he guessed that Panasonic tried to establish a "standard console format" for common manufacturing -- it wasn't the GameCube that Panasonic tried to push as a standard but, rather, the 3DO. In the mid-90s, Panasonic, Sanyo, and Goldstar all manufactured their own variants of the 3DO...and the failure of those variants highlights why it would difficult to successfully launch a similar standard, even today: market confusion.
Uninitiated consumers already have enough problems trying to discern between the current selection of consoles, games, and all of their various peripherals; additional SKUs of the same console from different manufacturers will only muddy the waters even further. Also consider Sony's recent attempt at this from a software standpoint -- the Playstation Suite -- which hasn't been a wild success to this point.
The only thing that both corporations and customers agree is important is the ability to make an easy purchasing decision. A standard console specification, and all the various and sundry SKUs that would emerge from it, just makes things more complicated.
Which will only make their inevitable betrayal that much more painful.
"@OzymandiasAV No, you're just indicative of the sjw infestation in the gaming media." -- Brad Wardell
Quoted for truth. Seriously, the gaming community is losing out on so much for fear of spoilers.
Professionally offended. Does not understand jokes. Needs a man to explain them to me.
What betrayal are you concerned about? That someday they're going to throw the giant knife switch in the sky, turn off the lights and take all our money? Or that they'll do something that makes Left 4 Dead fans angry about dlc? (Everything seems to make them angry anyway.) More hats?
I just can't justify not using the superior service because I'm afraid of some nebulous Bad Thing that MIGHT happen someday.
Michael
I dunno, I have even less interest in playing DA2 now that an emotional core to the story was laid out in open during the CC about 4 or 5 months after release of the game.
Of course, Bioware games are largely about story, so ...
How did I live before digital distribution of old, cheap games?
MilkmanDanimal wrote:You did live before digital distribution of old, cheap games. Now you just play games.
I'm probably weird for thinking that interest in experiencing a story is less appealing to me than a conversation about the story. I guess that's why I'm an editor.
Words... are a big deal.
Jill Lapore wrote:Editing is one of the great inventions of civilization.
I'm the same way. I've never found my experience with a story to be lessened by knowing what will happen next, but I've had countless conversations hamstrung prematurely by a fear of spoiling things. What's fun in a story isn't seeing what happens but how it happens and why it happens and what techniques are used to make it happen, all of which can be made richer through conversation.
Professionally offended. Does not understand jokes. Needs a man to explain them to me.
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