Conference Call

GWJ Conference Call Episode 133

Left 4 Dead: Survival, Demigod, Red Faction: Guerrilla, The Origins of Peggle on WoW, theHunter, PopCap Creative Director & Co-Founder Jason Kapalka, A Chance to Win The Dishwasher!, Your Emails and more!

We're very pleased to be joined by PopCap's own Jason Kapalka this week! Bejeweled, Peggle, Zuma and the upcoming Plants Vs. Zombies are just some of the many brain-eating games brought to us by PopCap. We delve into how Peggle ended up in WoW, PopCap's MMO death pool, the possibility of a PopCap RPG, strategic partnerships and a whole lot more. There's also a chance to win a code for The Dishwasher on Xbox Live thanks to DrJonez! Finally, if you'd like to fill out our GWJ Conference Call Survey we'd appreciate it! If you want to submit a question or comment call in to our voicemail line at (612) 284-4563.

To contact us, email [email protected]! Send us your thoughts on the show, pressing issues you want to talk about or whatever else is on your mind. You can even send a 30 second audio question or comment (MP3 format please) if you're so inclined. You can also submit a question or comment call in to our voicemail line at (612) 284-4563!

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Show credits

Music credits: 

Intro/Outtro Music - Ian Dorsch, Willowtree Audioworks

"Washaway" (Ian Dorsch) - 0:26:49
"Carving Away Stone" (Ian Dorsch) - 1:03:40

Comments

@Demiurge

I would be interested to hear you talk about old games. In face I'd rather there was less focus on the 'next big thing' in games you can play right now, personally I find it hard to keep up with the releases sometimes

What brand is the Dishwasher? Bosch, Whirlpool?

Is it energy efficient? These are important questions.

Seriously, I was disappointing to hear the general survival unlove. I find it a much more enjoyable experience than the rest of the game because it distills what I love about L4D, the team play, general panic and tension, into short bites. but the key thing is a decent team... a good team will take that 3min and make it 5-6-7 quite easily...

Gaald, I can understand how you might feel like they're constantly releasing new expansions for Guild Wars as they push new changes and content frequently, but there have actually only been three actual expansions. The last one was released in October... 2006. They've announced they won't be releasing any more and are instead working on Guild Wars 2, which from what little we know is eschewing some of what made Guild Wars great in favor of - you guessed it - copying WoW.

We'll see how it turns out.

Chalk me in the "I don't care how old a game is if you have something interesting to say about it, say it" category. Sometimes the constant drone on new releases gets a bit predictable and monotonous, but I wouldn't have said that if the topic hadn't come up because it is far from a podcast killer in my view.

Only into segment 2 (will finish up on my commute home), but a little disappointed with the lack of Demigod conversation from the regular crew. I thought it was going to be this weeks The Hunter!

garion333 wrote:

Chalk me in the "I don't care how old a game is if you have something interesting to say about it, say it" category. Sometimes the constant drone on new releases gets a bit predictable and monotonous, but I wouldn't have said that if the topic hadn't come up because it is far from a podcast killer in my view.

I agree. I'm playing SS2 and CoH right now and think conversations about older games like these are well worth it.

During the discussion with Mr. Kapalka he seems like a really likable guy, but it felt like both sides of the conversations were constantly tiptoeing around the "hardcore's" real complaint about the "casual," which is dumbing down good game mechanics. When you were discussing FPSs with mouselook, I agree that that can be a little hard to learn if you're totally new to gaming - as a PC gamer I liken it to learning how to control an FPS on a console - but the reason FPSs use mouselook is not because we're all used to it, it's because it works REALLY well. More accessible or not, I feel that an FPS that uses only the keyboard is a step backwards. I know that I'm not the target demographic, I wish Jason the best and I find the idea of a PopCap Oblivion to be amusing, but please forgive me if I don't think I'd be interested in playing that game. Games like RPGs are enjoyable because they're deep, and they're inaccessible because they're deep. How can you make them more accessible without reducing the depth, and if you can't then how can you reduce the depth without making them less enjoyable?

MrCompletely wrote:

Only into segment 2 (will finish up on my commute home), but a little disappointed with the lack of Demigod conversation from the regular crew. I thought it was going to be this weeks The Hunter!

Try Three Moves Ahead, though, admittedly, they're not happy with the connection issues. They had Brad Wardell on last week and Demigod has at least been mentioned the past four or five episodes.

By the way, guys, I'm glad you don't insert WoW into the conversation as much as you used to.

...Frikkin iPhone.

I really enjoyed the conversations with Jason Kapalka this week. My respect for Popcap as a company, let alone a game studio, increased dramatically after hearing him talk about the origins of the Peggle plug-in in WoW, and his observations about the long-term approachability and sustainability of hardcore games were very insightful.

Gotta admit, this interview made me view casual games as "real" games for once. I was one of those that had always been under the impression that most of these games were whipped up in a few weeks and just thrown out there to see what sticks. Guess I was wrong.

Kehama wrote:

Gotta admit, this interview made me view casual games as "real" games for once. I was one of those that had always been under the impression that most of these games were whipped up in a few weeks and just thrown out there to see what sticks. Guess I was wrong.

Popcap is careful about doing things right, I'm sure a lot of companies do just throw them out.

Kehama wrote:

Gotta admit, this interview made me view casual games as "real" games for once. I was one of those that had always been under the impression that most of these games were whipped up in a few weeks and just thrown out there to see what sticks. Guess I was wrong.

Well, to be fair, there probably is a number of them that are slapped together - they just may not last very long out in the marketplace.

I think the thing that people underestimate - not only for "casual" games (hate, hate, hate that term), but for arcade games developed back in the day - is the difficulty involved in putting together a compelling experience that is completely content-independent. Games like Bejeweled, Tetris, Pac-Man and Robotron are timeless because players can get different, emergent experiences within a set framework; they get a compelling play the first time, as well as every time thereafter, and the only reason that the framework can provide that is because it has been tweaked and sharpened and iterated over hundreds of times to make sure that players can still succeed (and get proper feedback of that success) without sending the game into monotony or frustration through artificial difficulty.

I must be lame, since as soon as Jason said "tweaky," I immediately said out loud "bee-dee-dee-dee."

Edit: And how many of the two million people who bought BioShock knows who Ken Levine is?

Hey you lot, great podcast.

Jason Kapalka's candor and responses really opened my eyes to the 'casual' development process; really interesting stuff.

keep it real

Rat Boy wrote:

Edit: And how many of the two million people who bought BioShock knows who Ken Levine is?

Less than 1%.

Great ep as usual, makes my commute over the mountain pass much more enjoyable, thanks guys:)

One thing to clarify a point (and maybe you correct this before the end of the show, almost there but not quite), 2K Marin was formed out of 2k Boston, as well as 2K Australia, and at least 5 people who worked on Bioshock from Boston are working on Bioshock 2. Not mighty Ken, of course, but there is some continuity there.

LobsterMobster wrote:

During the discussion with Mr. Kapalka he seems like a really likable guy, but it felt like both sides of the conversations were constantly tiptoeing around the "hardcore's" real complaint about the "casual," which is dumbing down good game mechanics. When you were discussing FPSs with mouselook, I agree that that can be a little hard to learn if you're totally new to gaming - as a PC gamer I liken it to learning how to control an FPS on a console - but the reason FPSs use mouselook is not because we're all used to it, it's because it works REALLY well. More accessible or not, I feel that an FPS that uses only the keyboard is a step backwards. I know that I'm not the target demographic, I wish Jason the best and I find the idea of a PopCap Oblivion to be amusing, but please forgive me if I don't think I'd be interested in playing that game. Games like RPGs are enjoyable because they're deep, and they're inaccessible because they're deep. How can you make them more accessible without reducing the depth, and if you can't then how can you reduce the depth without making them less enjoyable?

I agree with this. But I guess by this logic they would then be making this "Oblivion," for the hardcore. Since they want to reach a large demographic as per the essential mission statement Kapalka gave in the podcast about Popcap, they probably won't make this game. Unless ofcourse they could make the reasonable compromises with-in the frame work of your logic.
For example to continue your point about mouselook, what works really well in RPGs is the ability to stat track and organize."well at least it is commonly associated with RPGs enough" If this game where to ever exist I find it hard to see it be comparable to Oblivion on the scale of the games they currently make.

Lobster's legitimate question about hardcore/casual aside, I think it's nice when you have guests on for the entire show, i.e. Zonk or Kapalka, than for just a single segment. It's cool to get their opinions for new games they're playing, e-mails, etc. especially during slower release weeks.

Very good interview and he seemd like a really interesting guy. I did get a bit of a chuckle when he was talking about people they've found stealing their copyrighted work given that several of PopCap's early successes (in particular Zuma) were brazen ripoffs that they somehow never got sued for. That is definitely not the case with their newer titles though.

Pre- Orange Box, or perhaps I should say pre- Peggle Extreme on Steam with the purchase of the Orange Box, I didn't know who Pop Cap was, I had heard of them and seen my mother and mother-in-law spend forever on their website. As a pc support guy I put Pop Cap in my "free browser games with spyware" category. Putting their games on Steam was a perfect move. I feel safe browsing Steam and looked at their description/demos. While I still think the majority of their games are lame and wouldn't buy them, I fell in love with Peggle.

I don't view games so much as "casual" or "hardcore". I tend to categorize them in my head as "$1-10 range", "$11-25", "$30-40", "New $50 game (I also call these day1 purchases)" and beyond that is "I won't buy you". I purchase the majority of my games on Steam and only special purchases are ever made in a store (PC and Wii owner). After Peggle and the interview on the podcast I've actually looked at Plants Vs. Zombies and pondered the purchase. I'm already amazed that I've given money to a developer I had in my "free browser games with spyware" category. I've even visited their site!

To the podcast - best podcast on the internet. The interviews make it even better, but you're still the best even when you don't have guests.

Always thankful when a question of mine is read, so no offence—just wanted to offer an opinion in response. It’s true that the team behind Bioshock isn’t the same, but only so much. The creative director for Bioshock 2 is not only a member of the original team, but is responsible for what is generally considered the best level of Bioshock—Fort Frolic. I can’t find additional information about Jordan Thomas so I don’t know what other games he’s worked on. I wouldn’t suggest that he has earned the right for gamers to be eagerly expectant, as they more likely would be if Ken Levine was involved. But tempered enthusiasm, still surprised the project and the creative director didn’t have that going for him.

As to Blizzard getting a pass, I guess I should have checked out more forums. I know that I heard several people complaining on podcasts that Blizzard was making the decision to segment Starcraft 3 due to financial reasons (I believe Rebel FM was one example of this, but am not positive). Again, should have checked it out more before asking about this part I guess.

Anyway, thanks again for reading the question.

demonbox

I almost turned the podcast off when I heard that someone from PopCap Games was going to be on, but I'm really glad I didn't. It was really interesting to hear Mr. Kapalka talk about casual games and how they go about making sure they stay interesting after hours of playtime. I'm sorry I doubted the topic in the first place!

karmaghost wrote:

I almost turned the podcast off when I heard that someone from PopCap Games was going to be on, but I'm really glad I didn't. It was really interesting to hear Mr. Kapalka talk about casual games and how they go about making sure they stay interesting after hours of playtime. I'm sorry I doubted the topic in the first place!

There have been a lot of times in the last year that knowing a certain guests were on made me grown before listening and by the end I was quite happy to have heard what they had to say. I don't think I've walked away disappointed from any of those episodes.

mrtomaytohead wrote:
karmaghost wrote:

I almost turned the podcast off when I heard that someone from PopCap Games was going to be on, but I'm really glad I didn't. It was really interesting to hear Mr. Kapalka talk about casual games and how they go about making sure they stay interesting after hours of playtime. I'm sorry I doubted the topic in the first place!

There have been a lot of times in the last year that knowing a certain guests were on made me grown before listening and by the end I was quite happy to have heard what they had to say. I don't think I've walked away disappointed from any of those episodes.

For shame! You must never doubt us!

All jokes aside. I always find it fascinating when we have industry people on the show. I have learned so much from each of them. I am glad you guys find them interesting to.

Jason Kapalka was an excellent guest, and I believe that the GWJ hosts were well-prepared with relevant questions. Kudos!

Interesting show as always, great idea to get someone from Popcap on.

I think the whole game digital distribution market place thing is the best thing to ever happen to indie gaming. Sure, there are rules and the distributor takes a cut, but the developer of a good game ends up with a smaller slice of a *much* bigger pie.

You could argue that some sort of lower limit on sales before you get any money would be a good thing for the iPhone app store, given the countless thousands of apps you have to sort through to find anything now.

Great conversation with Kapalka. Popcap is the Blizzard of casual gaming in that they really know how to take a simple idea that others have done and wrap it up in a nice accessible package.

Indie gaming in general is still facing many of the same problems it did five years ago, though. Yes, some casual gaming companies can get their stuff reviewed, but for the most part indie games struggle with marketing, self-promotion or getting anyone to pay attention to their work outside of a self-selecting audience. Unless you have already been very successful (like PopCap) or have a gimmick (like Stalin v Martians), it can be hard to break into the wider gaming space. And with casual and independent games easier to make than they've ever been, there is so much more crap out there that gamers and media have to wade through.

You heard it here first: PopCap brings Roguelikes to main stream with: Behacked! Netiquarium? Zumcrawl?

I got nothing, except that a popcap dungeon-crawler that could be played in 30 minute stretches would be awesome.

demonbox wrote:

Always thankful when a question of mine is read, so no offence—just wanted to offer an opinion in response. It’s true that the team behind Bioshock isn’t the same, but only so much. The creative director for Bioshock 2 is not only a member of the original team, but is responsible for what is generally considered the best level of Bioshock—Fort Frolic. I can’t find additional information about Jordan Thomas so I don’t know what other games he’s worked on. I wouldn’t suggest that he has earned the right for gamers to be eagerly expectant, as they more likely would be if Ken Levine was involved. But tempered enthusiasm, still surprised the project and the creative director didn’t have that going for him.

He also created The Cradle in Thief: Deadly Shadows. That is what changed my mind about Bioshock 2.

Mixolyde wrote:

You heard it here first: PopCap brings Roguelikes to main stream with: Behacked! Netiquarium? Zumcrawl?

I got nothing, except that a popcap dungeon-crawler that could be played in 30 minute stretches would be awesome.

Oh my God YES!

I, too, would love to hear talk of old (or just older) games.