Hellgate London catch all

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Eurogamer is reporting that the failure of Hellgate is having a serious impact at Flagship.

"Work is depressing right now," began Somberg. "Never mind the fact that Hellgate isn't as popular as anybody had hoped. Never mind the fact that there exists a term 'Flagshipped', meaning where a company basically over-promises and then screws you. Never mind the fact that the forums are totally populated by people who do nothing but complain and talk about how much the game sucks. Never mind the fact that people do the same thing in the game itself.

"So why is work depressing? (Other than all of those other depressing things, that is.) The reason is that people are leaving. In droves, they're leaving.

"Thing is, the way things are going I'm likely to be the only programmer still working on Hellgate left from the original crew. I've heard rumours that other programmers and artists are thinking of leaving. [And] every time a programmer leaves, it's more work for me. Every time an artist leaves, it's less content that we can create for Hellgate in the future"

So it looks like it's becoming less and less likely they're going to turn this thing around. Such a shame.

Hellgate's hard for me to pin down. If I ignore the fairly severe tech issues that plagued me with the title from late December until patch 1.2 (or was it 1.3?) that actually caused me to set the game aside for several months, the gameplay itself is still questionable sometimes.

When the game is good, it's really really good and I LOVE it. However, there are also times when it's pretty lackluster. My biggest complaint is small areas being too common, and fairly lackluster itemization for armor. My main is an engineer, and I've seen a nice variety of firearms to equip and modify, so that's been great. I really love how the different types of guns actually play differently (as opposed to how all ranged weapons essentially played the same in Diablo 2). And I love the music and a lot of the enemy variety. The patches have improved the game a lot.

I think what really seems out of whack is all the repetitive and dull questing; I hate the quests for the most part. But the xp rate is based off of doing the quests, so playing Diablo 2 style winds up feeling more like a grind than it should. If they'd adjust the xp rate on the production servers so that the quests would be truly optional (as I only do them for the xp; the rewards are typically wholly underwhelming), I'd just ignore the non-story quests.

Yeah I only do quests for the occasional legendary items and stat points. And to help fellow GWJers out here are list of quest that give stat points:

You get 46 from norm 46 from Nightmare, for a total of 92 stat points:

All quests give 1 stat point each unless otherwise noted. Monster levels listed are Normal / Nightmare



Holborn Station - 2 Quests:



Covent Garden Approach - Monster Level 3/31:



"Wart's Secret"

Joey/Wart in Holborn Station

Kill 12 Fellbores in Covent Garden Approach



"Night of the Zombies"

George in Holborn Station

Kill Typhoid Mary in Covent Garden Approach



Covent Garden Station - 5 Quests:



Covent Garden Market - Monster Level 5/32:



"Panic!"

Steven Patrick in Covent Garden Station

Kill 8 Ravagers in Covent Garden Market



Bloomsbury - Monster Level 6/33:



"Like Acids, Eh"

Mac Kenzie in Covent Garden Station

Take 8 Hearts of Rage from Shriekers in Bloomsbury



"Sweet Dreams"

Beasley in Covent Garden Station

Kill 9 Shriekers in Bloomsbury



St. Martin's - Monster Level 7/33:



"In A Row"

Dotter in Covent Garden Station

Kill 7 Imp Snipers in St. Martin's



Charing Cross Approach - Monster Level 8/34:



"The Lender"

Ranger in Covent Garden Station

Travel to Charing Cross Station. Speak with Techsmith 314



Charing Cross - 6 Quests:



Admiralty Arch - Monster Level 12/36:



"AAA"

Techsmith 14 in Charing Cross Station

Kill Lord Croosack in Admiralty Arch



Craven Street - Monster Level 14/38:



"Shine On"

Gil in Charing Cross Station

Take 3 Bilious Sacs from Firesnaps in Craven Street



Embankment Approach - Monster Level 14/38:



"Put On A Clinic"

Beck in Charing Cross Station

Use the Retractable Bracer on Lord Cheessis (while it's alive) in Embankment Approach



Travel to Temple Station Quests:



"Gig for Old Cap"

Joanne in Charing Cross Station

Travel to Temple Station. Speak with Tiberius



(Backtrack -- The next 2 Quests activate back at Charing Cross upon reaching Temple Station):


Savoy - Monster Level 16/39:



"Echoes of the Gold"

Gil in Charing Cross Station

Kill Abomination in Savoy



Temple Approach - Monster Level 17/39:



"Clues for New Cap"

Joanne in Charing Cross Station

Take 1 Encrypted Message from Black Skull in Temple Approach



Oxford Circus Station - 2 Quests:



Death's City - Monster Level 12/35:



"Lightweight"

Hatton in Oxford Circus Station

Kill 12 Crested Stalkers in Death's City



"Monkey's Business"

Goodall in Oxford Circus Station

Travel to Monument Station. Speak with Jons



Temple Station - 6 Quests:



New Bridge - Monster Level 17/41:



"Wonder Times 5000"

Pratch in Temple Station

Take 8 Demon Claws from Burning Dead in New Bridge



The Strand - Monster Level 18/42:



"Heartfelt"

Stewart in Temple Station

Take 1 Demon Ticker from The Hag in The Strand



"Parathyroid of Evil"

Ser Sing in Temple Station

Take 2 Demon Organs from Furies in The Strand



Blackfriars - Monster Level 18/42:



"Even-Steven"

Claire in Temple Station

Kill Shambling Meatbag in Blackfriars



Cannon Street - Monster Level 19/43:



"One Big Pull"

Tiberius in Temple Station

Kill Necrofiend in Cannon Street



"Proper Notice"

The Messenger in Cannon Street

Travel to Temple Station and speak with Mag



Templar Base - 4 Quests



Kingsway - Monster Level 21/46:



"Faith & Fury"

Brandon Lann in Templar Base

Kill 12 Darkspawn Troopers in Kingsway



"The Bone Hunters"

Gunny in Templar Base

Take 15 Demon Claws from Darkspawn Troopers in Kingsway



Stonecutter - Monster Level 21/46:



"There All Honor Lies"

Aeron Altair in Templar Base

Explore Stonecutter



Bishop's Court - Monster Level 21/46:



"Alerith's"

Rob Someone in Templar Base

Kill El Temblo in Bishop's Court



Monument Station - 6 Quests



Eastcheap - Monster Level 19/44:



"The Deal Seal"

Jons in Monument Station

Kill Sewerbreath in Eastcheap



Lower Thames - Monster Level 22/48:



"Safety's On"

Jons in Monument Station

Kill 3 Ravager Mastodons in Lower Thames



Trinity Square - Monster Level 23/48:



"Whoa. Cranky."

Connor in Monument Station

Kill Beguiler in Trinity Square



King William Street - Monster Level 24/49:



"Demons of Notoriety"

Nasim in Monument Station

Kill Mutilator in King William Street



Liverpool Approach - Monster Level 25/51:



"Brood Go Bye"

Connor in Monument Station

Kill 17 Fallen Fellbores in Liverpool Approach



"On & Off"

Nasim in Monument Station

Activate 2 Flesh Tombs in Liverpool Approach



Mark Lane Station/Broker - 3 Quests:



Blackfriars - Monster Level 18/42:



"Succresco"

The Broker in Mark Lane Station

Take 10 Demon Souls from Fallen Fellbores in Blackfriars



Trinity Square - Monster Level 23/48:



"Invicem"

The Broker in Mark Lane Station

Kill 18 Lost Ones in Trinity Square



Aldgate - Monster Level 24/48:



"Evinco"

The Broker in Mark Lane Station

Take 8 Demonic Talismans from Blood Seraphim in Aldgate



Liverpool St. Station - 7 Quests:



Devonshire Square - Monster Level 26/52:



"Old Path"

Lyra Darius in Liverpool Street Station

Activate 5 Sweeps in Devonshire Square



Houndsditch - Monster Level 26/53:



"Sulk, Shirk"

Crowe in Liverpool Street Station

Activate 3 Condensed Reactors in Houndsditch



Necropolis - Monster Level 27/54:



"Regicide"

Tyndall in Liverpool Street Station

Kill Master Orb in Necropolis Level 3

(5th quest from Tyndall. To avoid backtracking such a long distance, complete the other 4 first, along with the Storyline quest of The Deep, leaving a PRD in Necropolis 3)



Wormwood - Monster Level 28/55:



"One You, Many Birds"

Saul Petrus in Liverpool Street Station

Kill 12 Frozen Horrors in Wormwood



Undershaft - Monster Level 28/55:



"Relevant Relics"

Tyndall in Liverpool Street Station

Use the Fast Wand on the Shrine of Ah'n K'Hada in Undershaft



Guildhall - Monster Level 29/58:



"Late Harvest"

Crowe in Liverpool Street Station

Take 2 Ancient War Bands from Shadow Husks in Guildhall



St. Paul's Approach - Monster Level 29/58:



"Remembrance"

Lyra Darius in Liverpool Street Station

Kill The Eliminator in St. Paul's Approach



Finsbury Square - 3 Quests:



Lamb's Passage - Monster Level 29/56:



"For King & Country"

Rorke Pherral in Finsbury Square

Kill Tenebrae in Lamb's Passage



Mark Square - Monster Level 29/56:



"Old Objective Object"

Techsmith 314 in Finsbury Square

Use the Demon Claw on 'A Magnificent Chair' in Mark Square



Finsbury Market - Monster Level 29/55:



"Overkill"

Rorke Pherral in Finsbury Square

Kill 6 Juggernauts in Finsbury Market



St. Paul's Station - 2 Quests:



Little Britain - Monster Level 30/59:



"Credit Check"

Spud in St. Paul's Station

Kill Masterblaster in Little Britain



Paternoster Row - Monster Level 29/59:



"This Land is..."

Spud in St. Paul's Station

Explore Paternoster Row

They should just scrap the skill trees and make them separate classes. That way you would just earn new abilities at certain levels and they could balance the abilities better. You could have:

guardian - shield thrower, or aura user
blademaster - sword thrower
engineer - drone user or bot user
marksman - sniper or grenade/strike caller
summoner - carnagor/reaver or elemental user
evoker - phase, fire, bone or poison caster

The skill tree system and the strong weapon upgrade system are just not compatible. If you beef up one, the other gets neutered.

Diablo 2 was designed where damage was increased more through skill points than weapons. For most classes, item upgrades were used primarily to increase stats (mana, hp, resistances)

In HGL, most of the damage is increased by weapon upgrades. The major problem with this is that weapons for different classes start to homogenize at higher levels so once you find a play style that works for one class, you can find similar weapons for another class and be successful playing a different class with a similar style. (i.e. my guardian never uses swords because she can be more effective with 2 guns ala my engineer or summoner)

It would be like if in diablo 2 were despite offering 10 different play styles for the sorceress, the most effective way to play is to equip a broadsword or composite bow and play like a barbarian or amazon respectively and completely ignore the skill trees.

The other quicker fix would be to make weapons more diverse and more class specific so that I can't play my guardian like a marksman with a sh*t ton more armor.

Well, I think most of the damage is done by weapon upgrades because there seemed to be some sort of glitch that was making skill boost attributes occur more often than usual, like it'd pick attributes based item level and at a certain level it dumps a whole bunch of skill boosts and the lower-power attacks plop out. As a result many of the gold weapons I find have about 3 skill boosts, most of which I NEVER FRIKKIN USE. They mentioned something about making all attributes equally likely at all levels so let's see. There's nothing more disappointing than finding a new gold weapon and IDing it to see that it has nothing but big boosts to useless skills (or skills for a different class). Wow. +3 to Recon Bots. Thanks?

fang, while it is true that FSS made every class gear dependent. For some classes like the evoker, the skill choice makes a huge difference too.

For example, my favorite evoker skill has to be Skullspitter, it is hard to use, but if you pump up the ranks for it, you can one shot shulgoth in NM mode. Heck I pretty much two shotted Abbadon in NM mode

The whole modding thing is actually rather complex. But the gist of it is that if you want a status affect to happen, you have to add mods that does the corresponding dmg type. Also, mods that does nova on hit or kill, base their dmg on the HP of the target that is being hit or killed. (so a nova proc from a boss will be much more powerful than that from one of its minions)

Lobster, yeah I agree with you on the useless skill augment department. The worst is that you get bugged out and get a +1 to a skill legendary augmentation:(. Conversely, the danger of crappy augments does makes getting a good augment that much sweeter

lethial wrote:

The whole modding thing is actually rather complex. But the gist of it is that if you want a status affect to happen, you have to add mods that does the corresponding dmg type. Also, mods that does nova on hit or kill, base their dmg on the HP of the target that is being hit or killed. (so a nova proc from a boss will be much more powerful than that from one of its minions)

Yeah, the status effect thing is weird. An item that gives + to effect strength does absolutely nothing unless your attacks are already doing the corresponding damage type. So +50000 to Stun is worthless unless you're using a weapon that does physical damage.

Also I've found that the novas originate from the character rather than the killed enemy, which makes them much less useful for Marksmen. There is one effect that has a chance per hit to fire seeking lightning shots. Get that on a rapid-fire weapon and it kicks ass. Now if only all gear could be so cool...

LobsterMobster wrote:

Also I've found that the novas originate from the character rather than the killed enemy, which makes them much less useful for Marksmen. There is one effect that has a chance per hit to fire seeking lightning shots. Get that on a rapid-fire weapon and it kicks ass. Now if only all gear could be so cool...

Okay allow me to try to explain this better. I know it is confusing...
Novas that originate from target:
Toxic
spectral
fire
Spike (physical dmg)*

Novas that originate from Player:
Spike (usually the explosive kind that does fire dmg)
Electric (snowball like white projectiles that move very fast)
Charged Bolts (large balls of electricity that moves very slowly)

*Most of the time spikes are originated from the Player character, but I swore that I have seen it originate off of targets...

Hey lethial, are you part of the GWJ clan? What's your tag? My marksman is Magabarai.

Yeah most of my char are in GWJ guild, except for Sharingnin, Fulle and I think Lethial (one of my RL friend made a guild and invited me so I joined). Just look me up tonight I will be online

Oh btw, about that depressed programmer blog, since it is somehow dugged up again by "anti-fans" of FSS, it is only fair to mention that it is in fact "debunked" by a follow up news that Kotaku made after the blog appeared.

We first heard back from Flagship's marketing communications manager, web manager and writer Ivan Sulic, who said while he couldn't speak about Somberg's emotions, he guessed they were "like anyone who spent a lot of time and effort on something that wasn't received as well as hoped... And then a few of our friends and coworkers left. It's a bummer."

Bummers aside, though, Sulic said that nobody's been taken off or left the Hellgate team except for systems programmer Peter Hu, who's been able to work on some other projects now that the game is well underway. Said Sulic, "Everything else is pretty much business as usual."

Said Sulic, "We've actually had very few people leave. Flagship is still fully staffed and working on both Hellgate and Mythos... I think we have about 100 employees now."

Some people have moved on from Flagship, said Sulic, due to simply moving up on their career paths or being tired of windy San Francisco, but said those departures don't constitute cause for alarm. "People finish a game, want to work on something else, and then leave to do just that. It's pretty typical in this industry. I don't know the exact number, but we couldn’t have had more than five or six departures. Still, if those five or six dudes are people you work with everyday, it can't feel great."

And Somberg himself joined the conversation. "Ivan said it quite well," he said. "Things here at Flagship are running business as usual. We’ve just put a build of Chronicle 2 onto our test center, which has represented a lot of hard work from everybody at the company, myself included."

Somberg said he'd written that blog post on a day when he felt "frustrated and overwhelmed," but that after some hot chocolate, a few hours' game time and some sleep, he felt better.

Seriously though, if I were in FSS I'd be bit depressed by all the extreme negative comments from some of the internet goers... These people really have been working extremely hard and listening to their customers, they honestly deserved better.

Well that's good to know, I guess...

Mythos is Flagship's light at the end of the tunnel. It is compatible with HGL server back-end to a degree and if they roll it out right, it could do wonders for the company.

OK lethial, I'm logging on soon.

shihonage wrote:

Mythos is Flagship's light at the end of the tunnel. It is compatible with HGL server back-end to a degree and if they roll it out right, it could do wonders for the company.

I would disagree with that. As much as I enjoy Mythos, I would never see it as a cash cow. The gameplay is from an isometric view and, although 3D, all dungeons are strictly 2D. The graphics are cartoony. It is basically a diablo2 clone with some nice added features. Fun, even a little bit addictive, but certainly not something that would be considered cutting edge, must have or AAA.

Copingsaw wrote:
shihonage wrote:

Mythos is Flagship's light at the end of the tunnel. It is compatible with HGL server back-end to a degree and if they roll it out right, it could do wonders for the company.

I would disagree with that. As much as I enjoy Mythos, I would never see it as a cash cow. The gameplay is from an isometric view and, although 3D, all dungeons are strictly 2D. The graphics are cartoony. It is basically a diablo2 clone with some nice added features. Fun, even a little bit addictive, but certainly not something that would be considered cutting edge, must have or AAA.

IMO HGL would've done TONS better if it kept the isometric view, uncomplicated 2D controls, and was "basically" a Diablo2 clone with new graphics.

Isometric is not something "bad". Neither is "2D". Both concepts are ideally suited for a certain type of game, and that type is called "Diablo2 clone", which is what Mythos is, precisely.

IMO, all they need to do is to make sure that it is polished more than the other Diablo2 clones - there aren't many worth playing - and voila, instant success !

Plus, it's not all about being a cash cow. Merely releasing a "good" game adds to the company's image.

shihonage wrote:

All they need to do is to make sure that it is polished more than the other Diablo2 clones - there aren't many worth playing - and voila, instant success !

Very true for me. I dig Mythos a lot, and with more features (especially more classes) it'd make the best D2 clone yet. While I disagreed last fall with people who said this, I've since grown to be more entertained by Mythos and to me it's simply the better game.

Hey lethial, thanks for helping me out. I'm getting an authentification error when I try to log on to the test center so maybe it's down?

Dude, that was not a debunking, that was a confirmation. Phrases like "very few" are weasel words, and the blogger confirmed that he meant what he wrote, though hot chocolate and video games make him feel better. I have comfort food, too - it comes out when I'm depressed.

My friend recently left FSS to go to work at Obsidian (on the Aliens RPG, among other things). He LOVED working at FSS and had nothing but good things to say about it. Everyone I know over there feels the same way. Some people have left, but considering the average industry churn, that's to be expected. I wouldn't read too much into the blog post.

OK lethial, I got on and updated... only to find I also need to download a 1.3GB patch. I should be good to go in 3 hours.

Good to know about that Seph, tell your friend thank you for all his hard work please. I know they all worked very hard.

Feday: I shouldn't have used the word "debunk" but I don't think it is as serious as it sounded. Recently, few people from our group left, and I also had a feeling of "everyone's leaving." I guess flux is just a necessary property of working in the tech industry.

Lobster: yeah the server was down for a little.

While you wait for the d/l here is something that you could do to prevent having to repatch back and forth:

1) make a copy of the Flagship Studios/Hellgate London/ directory name it something else.
2) run the patcher.
3) rename the patched "Hellgate London" directory to something else like "Hellgate London TC"
4) rename the copy of "Hellgate London" directory back to its original name.

Now if you run the exe in the "TC" directory you will be ready to run on the TC. IMPORTANT: make sure that when you are running the exe in the "TC" directory, make sure to set the server to "TEST CENTER" not "SHULGOTH" or else you will patch back your "TC" directory.
Same thing applies for the exe in the normal folder.
(The settings for both patched and non-patched version of the game are shared, so be sure to get the right server for the right version of the game)

lethial wrote:

Feday:

Just "Fed", brother.

Fedaykin98 wrote:
lethial wrote:

Feday:

Just "Fed", brother. :)

My bad Actually I always have this fear of abbreviating people's nickname, but I am also too lazy to remember everyone's full name

I played around a little last night in the new Abyss area and other than finding it really confusing (as in, there are apparently ten targets to take out and no indication and no indication of where the next one is or which areas you've already cleared, and no indication on whether or not it even saves your progress) and really hard it wasn't bad. My engineer's a lot more fun to play than my Marksman since I've got that nice drone (which has about twice as much health as I, 4 times the armor, and uses a flame-based laser with a high chance to ignite stuff) and weapons that actually pack a pretty serious punch. I also confirmed that while +skill items still do drop there is far more variety in mods now and it's a lot easier to find good weapons. The skill/attribute retrainer was very handy too as I managed to just barely equip all of my gear after resetting (even though almost all of my armor has + to attributes and all of my feeds are literally maxxed right now so it's not so easy to swap anything but guns out) and now that they've changed the skill trees it was nice to free up points I'd previously wasted on those scout/recon bots and the missile bot suicide attack.

I'm still not sure I like the idea of playing on the test center though. I mean, there are some things that just don't make sense. First off, there will be a wipe at some point. There has to be. And how far back will that go? Will it recover a copy of the database from Shulgoth? Since it's not transferring fresh copies of each character over with each new version now, then how will new players play the Test Center? Will they need to make brand new characters and start over from level 1 each time there's a wipe?

Farscry wrote:
shihonage wrote:

All they need to do is to make sure that it is polished more than the other Diablo2 clones - there aren't many worth playing - and voila, instant success !

Very true for me. I dig Mythos a lot, and with more features (especially more classes) it'd make the best D2 clone yet. While I disagreed last fall with people who said this, I've since grown to be more entertained by Mythos and to me it's simply the better game. ;)

I think that HGL was mostly a victim of the Internet hype machine. I think with Mythos, they have proved that in the absence of unreasonable expectations they can produce a fun game, and I predict FSS has the ability to put out something in the next couple of years that will grant them some measure of redemption. I say this without having any idea what products they have in the pipeline of course. =P

lobster: you don't like the Molotov Assault!? That is arguably the best Engi skill, remember that you can also hit flying unit with it.

Oh and yeah I don't plan on making TC my primary server of choice either. I rather play on live server where it is more stable. And as to character wipe, I am sure that will happen, but I believe that when they do, they will copy the characters from Shulgoth to it.

Necroyeti: I honestly hope that they keep developing HGL. They have definitely made many improvements to it, and the HGL universe is very interesting, and has great potentials.

lethial wrote:

lobster: you don't like the Molotov Assault!? That is arguably the best Engi skill, remember that you can also hit flying unit with it.

I'd rather put the points into the rocket bot itself, though I admit it is nice to have a high-probability, area of effect flame attack on hand. Does the engineer have access to the grenade/airstrike that does that?

Engi has the whole strike line, and one grenade (phase).

Btw the strike line is really nice now, since they all improve on each other.

Maybe if they'd spent less time working on their ridiculous hybrid subscription model and more time on the game itself...Hellgate still sounds like a good idea to me today, so it's to bad it didn't get fully realized.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Maybe if they'd spent less time working on their ridiculous hybrid subscription model and more time on the game itself...Hellgate still sounds like a good idea to me today, so it's to bad it didn't get fully realized.

How much work does that really take anymore? They make stuff for subscribers. Now and then they decide to make it available to everyone. Tada~.