"Ender's Game" Battle Room games coming

http://news.filefront.com/enders-gam...

Except it's from the same guys that also did Advent Rising. Colour me unimpressed

Great! I've always wanted a sim where I could play a kid duped into unwittingly perpetrating an alien genocide.

Maybe they'll have minigames where we're jumped by other kids twice our size!

Kepheus wrote:

http://news.filefront.com/enders-game-no...ity/

Except it's from the same guys that also did Advent Rising. Colour me unimpressed

Well, it's only a few of the same guys. And Advent Rising wasn't all that bad. And Undertow is okay, right? I dunno, I'll reserve judgment until I learn a little more about the Ender's Game thing.

edit: sorry about the hscroll. Quoting the OP puked out all of that sh*t and I didn't feel like manually reformatting it.

Please, Please dear lord let this be good.

Interesting. Ender's Game was not a bad book but how exactly it will work as a game? Actually thinking about it, it might work as an RTS. Need more info.

With that said, personally, I think if all of the bugs would have been fixed... Advent Rising would have been a pretty good game.

-edit-

Also, wasn't there a movie in the making as well?

I read/teach ENDER'S GAME twice a year... it's a good book (which gets progressively LESS good the more you read it, but the kids seem to like it), but I fail to see how a fun battleroom game could be made.

Like the whole Quidditch thing in Harry Potter, the "battleroom" games seem much more interesting in print than they would be in real life. Seriously, what on earth could you do with this... a giant cube of a room, 80 kids, freezing people's legs, etc.? Since being weightless in zero-G was such a big part of the game, how would you really capture that feeling?

I dunno... I suppose you could do some kind of "mind game" simulation, but again, how would it play in a real video game sense?

I think that what makes Ender's Game work so well as a YA (young adult) book or coming of age story is the way is slowly unfolds a very complex situation gradually. Readers begin w/ empathizing w/ ender, then ender and his friends, then ender, his friends and the other students, then Ender et. al and the human race, and finally even the bugs they extinguish. It teaches empathy in a way that doesn't seem trite, forced, or artificial.

My above comment was based on my doubt that whatever game they create from the battle rooms will convey the depth of empathy and identification with all parties in a conflict that the book did. Really, at the end of the book Ender is like Oedipus, recognizing that he is damned. The fact that it isn't his fault doesn't matter to him at that point. I'm afraid the game will just focus on the small scale conflicts and not make that final step.

Oso wrote:

Great! I've always wanted a sim where I could play a kid duped into unwittingly perpetrating an alien genocide.

I'm pretty sure Ender is the one who came up with the genocide solution, and he knew it wasn't a simulation.

I wonder how they will handle the games aspect of it, including some of the unique ways Ender resolved the issues.

And there can be lots of sequels with all the moping, atonement, eulogies and finding God-analogues.

I can't see how it can really work in game form either.

Well, at least they're developing it with Orson Scott Card on board.

Nosferatu wrote:

I'm pretty sure Ender is the one who came up with the genocide solution, and he knew it wasn't a simulation.

How do you figure?

Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Nosferatu wrote:

I'm pretty sure Ender is the one who came up with the genocide solution, and he knew it wasn't a simulation.

How do you figure?

Was kind of interested in that one myself, Nos.

Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Nosferatu wrote:

I'm pretty sure Ender is the one who came up with the genocide solution, and he knew it wasn't a simulation.

How do you figure?

Was kind of interested in that one myself, Nos.

In Ender's Shadow, I'm pretty sure Bean realizes it's not a simulation, but if I remember correctly, Ender never really put it all together. He was much too stressed and drained for that.

kaostheory wrote:
Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Nosferatu wrote:

I'm pretty sure Ender is the one who came up with the genocide solution, and he knew it wasn't a simulation.

How do you figure?

Was kind of interested in that one myself, Nos.

In Ender's Shadow, I'm pretty sure Bean realizes it's not a simulation, but if I remember correctly, Ender never really put it all together. He was much too stressed and drained for that.

The reason Ender went for the planet in the "simulation" was because he was weary of playing the games against the adults. He did that thinking that the adults would never let him be a general if he showed he was willing to commit genocide at such a young age. For him, it was a way out of this horrid life the IF made for him. That's why he had a psychotic break when Graff congratulated him for ending an entire species. They really could have used much more tact than hugging him, crying and telling him he was a murderer.

A minigame could be the one that maps out your psyche. Only you get to read the results and not the teachers.

Grenn wrote:
kaostheory wrote:
Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:
Nosferatu wrote:

I'm pretty sure Ender is the one who came up with the genocide solution, and he knew it wasn't a simulation.

How do you figure?

Was kind of interested in that one myself, Nos.

In Ender's Shadow, I'm pretty sure Bean realizes it's not a simulation, but if I remember correctly, Ender never really put it all together. He was much too stressed and drained for that.

The reason Ender went for the planet in the "simulation" was because he was weary of playing the games against the adults. He did that thinking that the adults would never let him be a general if he showed he was willing to commit genocide at such a young age. For him, it was a way out of this horrid life the IF made for him. That's why he had a psychotic break when Graff congratulated him for ending an entire species. They really could have used much more tact than hugging him, crying and telling him he was a murderer.

A minigame could be the one that maps out your psyche. Only you get to read the results and not the teachers.

I just finished reading this(again) and though I was really reading fast at the end, I remember it as being Mazer Rackham that told him he wasn't playing Mazer and hadn't been since after the first "game" at Command school, but the actual bugs.

I originally thought this would be games of the kids at the battle room, but it seems like the sim at Command school might be more "doable". How are you supposed to simulate Ender's complete disregard for rules and conventions in a 40vs40 zero-g *gunfight*, especially since one of his main advantages against his opponents was having semi-autonomous captains who thought for themselves and could change strategy on-the-fly as well as Bean's "special" group.

The AI requirements alone to make this feel anything like the way it's described in-book would be astounding.
Although, on the upside, his "enemy" commanders at the school were mostly stupid and played by-the-book and stuck to formations, only aping things they saw him do in battle, so the enemy AI can be dumb and just "learn" from the player, but the AI of your own soldiers would have to be astounding.

I also was hoping it would be the zero-g battle room. Let's hope its good. Personally I liked the other sentient species the best in the later books. The little gnome guys or whatever they were.

Great post Duckilama. It makes me wonder that if Ender played on public servers, if he wouldn't get banned for using "exploits". It seems like what Ender did in the Battle room was to teach his squads to bunny-hop and rocket jump while the other team stuck to the manual. So much of SP gaming is pattern recognition, whether we are conscious of this or not, that what Ender did in the Battle Room or the Command School sims seems to be outside of the scope of what a game is.

That is to say, players in games agree to be bound by rules. The rules are the game. Ender's genius was seeing that by using 'exploits' or by going outside of the scope of the simulation, he could find an advantage. If we were playing chess, we'd call that cheating. If we were in war or in business, we'd call it innovation. Anyway, what Ender did was inappropriate for a game, i.e., a scenario where the players agreed on the rules and terms of the simulation before hand. It was genius for a war where the only rule is "win", but the book looked very hard at the cost of victory.

To cut this ramble short, now that I think on it, I'd like to see Ender take on Kirk in a PvP Kobiashi Maru scenario and see what happens.

duckilama wrote:

I originally thought this would be games of the kids at the battle room, but it seems like the sim at Command school might be more "doable".

It's been doable for years. The Homeworld series all have a map view screen that is extremely similar to how Card describes the Command School simulations, and in HW2 you can even direct entire battles without zooming in. The ship types, tactics, and challenges are very similar as well.

Sins of a Solar Empire will probably be a bit more towards Card's vision, in that you don't really have massive reproduction capabilities like you do in HW.

Either way, if it's a RTS/RTT game, especially a 4x one, I'll be happy. If they try to pump out a battleroom FPS game, I'll be extremely disappointed.

Oso wrote:

It makes me wonder that if Ender played on public servers, if he wouldn't get banned for using "exploits" [...] Ender's genius was seeing that by using 'exploits' or by going outside of the scope of the simulation, he could find an advantage. If we were playing chess, we'd call that cheating. If we were in war or in business, we'd call it innovation. Anyway, what Ender did was inappropriate for a game, i.e., a scenario where the players agreed on the rules and terms of the simulation before hand. It was genius for a war where the only rule is "win", but the book looked very hard at the cost of victory.

And this is where the book starts to fall apart, if you think about it too much. So seriously, Ender was the first person EVER who thought maybe it would be a good idea to NOT just do formations? No one, EVER, had thought about dividing their forces before he came along? I know Card sets this up in the book by saying Ender's isolation kept him from "adapting to the system," but it's a pretty big stretch. It works best if you just don't ask these kinds of questions.

To cut this ramble short, now that I think on it, I'd like to see Ender take on Kirk in a PvP Kobiashi Maru scenario and see what happens.

The "giant's drink" WAS Ender's Kobiyashi Maru, wasn't it? To win the game that couldn't be won? Kirk just reprogrammed the computer... Ender went all psycho and dug into someone's eye.

Grenn wrote:

The reason Ender went for the planet in the "simulation" was because he was weary of playing the games against the adults. He did that thinking that the adults would never let him be a general if he showed he was willing to commit genocide at such a young age. For him, it was a way out of this horrid life the IF made for him. That's why he had a psychotic break when Graff congratulated him for ending an entire species. They really could have used much more tact than hugging him, crying and telling him he was a murderer.

To be more specific, Ender had no idea that what he was doing was "genocide" even in terms of simulation... he was just told that there was a planet, and when Ender asked if the "doctor" would work against the planet, Mazer warned him that the buggers had never knowingly attacked a civilian population. From that, how would he have known that this was the bugger homeworld? How would he have known he was committing genocide, simulated or not?

You're right, though, that he attacked the planet on purpose because he was tired of the games and assumed this would get him sent home.

And DL is right, it was Mazer who told him.

kaostheory wrote:

In Ender's Shadow...

Man, ENDER'S SHADOW really annoyed me. I know many people love this book, but what kind of author writes a super popular book with a hero that (in the sequel) is shown to just have been a weaker, dumber, luckier version of a minor side character? This is sort of like George Lucas writing a Star Wars sequel where Wedge turns out to have been smarter, stronger, better, faster, and a bigger master of the force than Luke was. He just didn't feel like getting involved.

Anyway, what Ender did was inappropriate for a game, i.e., a scenario where the players agreed on the rules and terms of the simulation before hand.

I disagree, wholeheartedly. What he did was go against ***convention***. You said the rules are the game, but no, the game is the rules. Any ***mental modding*** that other players do is not part of the ruleset and requires everyone playing to perform the same mental mod.

Ender played by the letter of the law, not "the way things are done".
Your statement is akin to the Brits saying that the rebels under Washington broke the rules. Not really, they just went against convention.

Above all else, Ender won by whatever means necessary. This thread is going 9 kinds of off topic, and I could probably talk about this for hours, but I'm going to leave it as is.

Ducki's right, from what I remember. Ender didn't break any rules, except maybe the unwritten unspoken ones, which weren't really rules at all, just mental roadblocks in the minds of people who couldn't get past the concept of "this is how you play".

I agree with Ducki as well. Ender was all about 'I am doing it this way, just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean I can't do it'.

I'll concede that. It has been a while since I read the novel, but to use gaming terms, the battle rooms were sandbox games. Ended didn't cheat. I still think the rocket jump is a good analogy for what Ender did. It originally was an exploit but today levels are created w/ rocket jumps in mind. Other such tactics, like the syringe gun jump in TF2, would be fixed at the next patch.

SommerMatt:
Military types are known for their lack of creativity in terms of some things.
for a great example see early WWII, Germany kicked the crap out of what was supposed to be the best Army in Europe. They took their tanks through an impassible area and drove to the heart of France faster than the French could react, forcing them to surrender.

As for the Ender knew it was real, I'm a tad fuzzy on the subject, but I was pretty sure that in the version I read Ender did indeed know (well knew might be too strongly worded, he strongly suspected?) that the simulation was real, I tihnk it came up about the time that he figured out about the ansibles.
I'll have to dig up the books to get an exact quote. Enders gift was finding the most ruthlessly effective solution to a given problem, without regard to the social limitations that are generally put on people (these were often hidden from him intentionally, like the first person he killed).

Oso wrote:

I'll concede that. It has been a while since I read the novel, but to use gaming terms, the battle rooms were sandbox games. Ended didn't cheat. I still think the rocket jump is a good analogy for what Ender did. It originally was an exploit but today levels are created w/ rocket jumps in mind. Other such tactics, like the syringe gun jump in TF2, would be fixed at the next patch.

And the rules were always changed after Ender used a strategy, either to make it against the rules or to make it unfeasible.
That, or Ender went in knowing it was a one-shot deal, and afterwards, his enemies would be looking for it. It's like a double-reverse in football - it's a gimmick, but if used correctly, it can bring victory. You can't use the same gimmick over and over.
(Dammit, I was gonna let it go. Arg. I'm incurable.)

Nosferatu wrote:

As for the Ender knew it was real, I'm a tad fuzzy on the subject, but I was pretty sure that in the version I read Ender did indeed know (well knew might be too strongly worded, he strongly suspected?) that the simulation was real, I tihnk it came up about the time that he figured out about the ansibles.

Like I said... I read this book twice a year, just got done with my... 6th? 7th? reading about two weeks ago. There's no hint that he "knows" what he's doing... there's some foreshadowing that card drops, when Ender's dreaming... saying things like the buggers lived in the village that grew up around the giant's corpse and they "salute him like gladiators before caesar" as he walks past... some stuff like that... but there's no sense that Ender knows what he's doing. In fact, if he KNEW what he was doing, he wouldn't have done it... that's kind of the point

What was the relationship between the program and Ender though?
More specifically what were the basis for the images in the program?

Nosferatu wrote:

What was the relationship between the program and Ender though?
More specifically what were the basis for the images in the program?

Not sure what you mean?

IIRC the dreams at that point were closely linked to the personality game/program, they were reflections of what was going on in his own head.

Nosferatu wrote:

IIRC the dreams at that point were closely linked to the personality game/program, they were reflections of what was going on in his own head.

At that point in the book, he hadn't played the "mind game" in a long time... he kept reliving these same memories over and over because the buggers (by linking to his mind somehow through the ansible) made him. In his dreams, he became vaguely aware of certain things (like killing Bonzo), but he was never SURE of them. Again, I'll say that there's no evidence at all that he knew these simulator battles were "real," though. He knew he was training to kill/attack the buggers, so it makes perfect sense that he'd be thinking about having to do that at some point...