Spoiler Alert

I don’t care about spoilers.

I realize a lot of people do. I understand that because I also used to care, but at some point what I realized was the amount of energy I spent worrying about, reacting to, avoiding and complaining about spoilers simply outstripped whatever vague enjoyment I got from being surprised around some plot point. Worse still, most of the time the thing that might have been spoiled turned out to not be that damn big a deal anyway.

Much ado was made back in 2011 about a study from the University of California in San Diego that said (spoiler alert) that having a story spoiled for you is unlikely to impact your enjoyment of that story. According to the UCSD study, in fact the opposite seemed more likely to be true, “Subjects significantly preferred the spoiled versions of ironic-twist stories, where, for example, it was revealed before reading that a condemned man’s daring escape is all a fantasy before the noose snaps tight around his neck.”

My response at the time was, “Hey, I was going to read that story about the escaping man. Thanks for ruining it, loser.” It was 2011, I had not yet grown as a person.

My big problem with spoilers is that they are arbitrarily defined. There is no clearly defined threshold for what is and is not a spoiler. It’s not that I can’t live in a world with gray areas, but more that spoilers are really an entirely constructed interpretation of a made up rule, and that rule is exclusive to the person for whom the spoiler exists, unknowable to others in advance, but an imperative for everyone around whom the spoiler-rule exists. Avoiding spoilers might be fine if we all knew and shared the same sets of spoiler rules, but we don’t.

Spoiler rules used to be fairly straightforward and uniform, or at least I thought they were. It was admittedly easier back then, when spoilers were really only about the resolution of narratives. Now, however, the misuse of a gender pronoun can send people into an apoplexy because suddenly they know the hero of some movie they haven’t seen yet is a certain sex.

In part because of that arbitrariness, spoilers are selfish. They restrict and divide, asking people who have the temerity to be interested in talking about this thing they’ve experienced to please go somewhere else. They impose your schedule for consuming media onto others.

It’s not that I don’t understand or sympathize with the desire to keep something a surprise to experience in the intended context. My problem is when people make that desire the responsibility of everyone else instead of themselves. If you want to avoid spoilers, that’s fine, but it’s on you to limit yourself, not on everyone else around you to limit themselves. As far as I can tell, even if that thing you didn’t want spoiled gets spoiled, odds are you’re going to enjoy it every bit as much anyway.

A lot of people have become absolutely obsessed with spoilers. I blame this, to some degree, on the makers of a lot of pop culture, who have themselves become obsessed with “The Big Secret” or “The Amazing Reveal” or “The Game-Changing Plot Twist.” The television and cinemas are jam packed with stories that depend largely on their own secrets. They encourage watchers to micro-analyze every little kernel of story to try and guess the secret. This is problematic because it trains us to doubt every plot point — to believe that any image or half-spoken sentence, no matter how small or irrelevant, could be the thread that, when pulled, reveals the entire thing, whatever that thing may be.

And so we become obsessed with what we do and don’t know about shows, books and films. We imagine that finding out the big secret will provide some kind of enhanced payoff for the time we invest in the story, and as a result we become petrified of anything that might diminish that payoff. Spoiler-obsessed people sometimes seem to think of their entertainment consumption in a transactional sense. I have invested X of myself into this story, therefore the payout must be Y to achieve a positive time-to-cost ratio.

And spoilers? Well those are like taxes, hidden fees, shrink or some other kind of loss against the principal. Spoilers are seen to be this thing that reduces the payoff, and by extension devalues the time you’ve invested, or in the really extreme cases, that time you would have invested but haven’t yet.

Which, I think, is complete nonsense. Worse, I think that kind of transactional stance doesn’t do justice to the quality of the work that’s out there. Reducing things down to the quantification of some gimmick undermines the power of narrative.

Look at a work like Game of Thrones and the Song of Ice and Fire series. When I read (or in my case listened to audiobooks of) that series, if I had gone in only for the occasional plot twist or epic event, then I never would have made it through a few dozen pages. That time-to-cost thing just wouldn’t have panned out, because the series is dense mostly with intricacies and world building. And if you spend your time just waiting for the big reveal, it would be like listening to DubStep that waits forty-five minutes before getting to the drop. Why bother?

Big bad things happen in these stories. “Winter is coming.” But the dramatic tension exists not because readers don’t know what’s coming, but because they know, at least in a larger sense, what is coming. Readers know that things will fairly consistently turn for the worse, even when they seemed to be looking up, and the readers’ understanding makes every act of tenderness, loyalty, honor and decadence all the more meaningful. If winter were not coming, would readers even care?

The point being, even if you know everything about the various fates that befall the characters in the story, I would argue that the value of the story is not marginalized at all.

It feels to me like deciding not to go on a vacation unless everyone agrees not to tell you where you’re going. It’s the journey and the experience that are valuable. I know when I’m on a beach that I will soon have to return to Minnesota, that winter is waiting for me. If I didn’t know that, I wouldn’t spend all the time, energy and money to go to a beach in the first place. I would not appreciate the sun’s warmth, the calming susurration of the waves, the ridiculous cocktail umbrellas.

So, I’m now moving ever further into that crowd that is simply done with spoilers. I’m done worrying about them, and I’m increasingly done tiptoeing my way around every media conversation for fear that I will reveal something. At least when it comes to the way I consume media, I’m not longer going to worry if I find out the reveal. That’s not to say I can’t be thoughtful of others or that I will suddenly make an effort to spoil your fun just to prove a point. That’s just being a jerk.

It’s time for us to all just relax on the hyper-sensitivity for plot points. It’s honestly not doing us as media consumers any favors, and it’s subverting a lot of great conversation and discussion I wish we were having more often. Let yourself be spoiled here and there. Embrace it, and maybe you’ll realize that your shows, books and movies are just as good even when you know the destination.

Comments

LiquidMantis wrote:

And again, those of us that are adamantly anti-spoiler avoid the threads where active discussion is taking place when we're not caught up. The only time the few of us that feel strongly about spoilers have taken offense is when people come into threads marked NO SPOILERS in the title, then proceed to talk about meta information and can't be bothered to use the spoiler tags. I'm not sure how I can be any more clear about it.

I just want to +1 this as it is precisely how I feel. For me it is really a question of etiquette.

Elysium wrote:

Ok, guys.

Bowing out. I got my say at the start of the conversation, and fear I'm coming off as bullheaded and argumentative. Thanks for keeping me thinking, and honest.

That's really too bad. Invariably this same argument comes up in every NO SPOILERS thread, which starts a detracting, off-topic debate which leads to people leaving in a huff or Certis marching in, waving the ruler of knuckle slapping. At least here the argument is topical, even if both sides are too entrenched for progress to be made.

I'll quit with my definition of spoilers:

TV Shows: anything outside of the production script, what you would see if you watched it on a seasonal DVD. Spoilers include, but aren't limited to, upcoming episode teasers, Wikipedia synopses, upcoming episode titles, cast/crew interviews and comments, and information from the original source material, even if you feel the show has veered enough from the original.

Books: The asynchronous nature makes this different. In a small group conversation you simply establish how far along people are. In this larger group environment I simply avoid the threads on media I'm not current on. I don't walk into a smoker's house and complain about the smell.

[Edit] Not sure what happened with my quoting and posting.

Spoiler:

My next post is pointless.

.

I lied! There's the point! Dramatic twist!

Spoiler:

It was all just a weird double post issue.

I find it interesting how intense some people react to the concept of having a twist or plot 'spoiled' for them. I generally love it when a story surprises me, so I definitely guard myself from spoilers whenever possible (I generally avoid trailers for anything I'm interested in).

I remember hearing about the study into the increased enjoyment of an audience knowing the spoiler beforehand. It immediately made me wonder if the study accounted for the possible confirmation bias in the fact that those revisiting a story with a big twist would likely only be doing so if they enjoyed it the first time, and a well written story with a twist often has a lot of foreshadowing, which I personally find very enjoyable.

I don't particularly care about spoilers, but it's such a small thing for me to be considerate to others I don't understand the resistance. Within reason.

For example, I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to mind spoilers in a thread for a sequel to a game or movie. After all it's impossible to intelligently discuss implications and expectations for the sequel without having all the information about the predecessor.

(Wow, I should be writing for my news site right now but i. got. opinions.)

It's dangerous to apologize and here's two reasons.

1. Never apologize for something you did not do. It dilutes the power of an apology.

2. You can't assume what people will take away from your work. I've had readers flip out over what they thought was my headline, when, in fact, they never read the damn thing. I've also had readers go nuts because they've misinterpreted the most simplest of stories. This has taught me of never assuming how readers are going to feel. If someone gets upset that's their problem. That's not an insult. It truly is THEIR problem and you can do little about it.

Gaald wrote:
Strangeblades wrote:

Whoo hoo! I'm glad you said this Sean/Shawn/Entity. I could give a rat's ass about spoilers. I could care less about a single event. If I'm not entertained by the majority of the product a plot twist isn't going to make it more enjoyable.

If the enjoyment of your product comes from a single thing than f**k off. I ain't sitting around for hours waiting for that point to occur.

Spoilers-schmoilers I say.

And there is absolutely no problem with that attitude, as long as you don't force that opinion on others. To each his own. The problem lies in people that walk into conversations, whether in real life or online, who have been clearly told please no spoilers, and then start spoiling content because they feel like their definition of a spoiler is better then the other people who are taking part in the conversation.

I usually don't force people to accept my opinion as their own. I expect them to adopt it as their own.

1 I don't curb my speech or slap WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD stickers on my conversation. If you hear something you didn't want to, eh, what are you gonna do?

2 I've watched the Sixth Sense nearly six times. It's got style, moody moods and dread. Love it. Oh and something about Bruce Willis but who cares. Have you seen the colours used in this movie?! To quote Sean 'Famous' Vanananananaman, "Ung, it's so gooood."

3 Wait, why are we talking about entertainment products as if they carry the same weight as religious icons? If something is spoiled and your mood is soured for longer than five seconds - don't worry! There's more to enjoy.

4 I like you Gaald. *hugs*

Elysium wrote:

Fair enough, but I don't understand why it's hard to grasp the concept, that this can be read as: look, when someone who wants to avoid spoilers walks into a conversation, it's just polite for everyone else to adopt the arbitrary and unknowable rules that I ask for. That's just common courtesy.

Absolutely. It works both ways.

Pistols at dawn good sir!

LarryC wrote:

On the other hand, there are other sorts of media for which revelations really count for nothing at all, or even where revealing the main points increases the enjoyment. For instance, knowing the broad plot points of Pride and Prejudice allows the reader to concentrate on subtle character expressions, hints, and Austen's fantastic humor. There's a lot of value in reading it over and over to get at the many layers. Many layered-experiences and narratives of this sort actually improve when the most obvious parts of them are revealed.

I completely agree with the part where some stories require to be experienced multiple times, but I still argue that taking away that first time to a spoiler, well spoils the first time. Lets take a hypothetical movie where the main character dumps his fiancee at the end and marries her sister. If I told you that before you saw the movie, your first experience with that part of the story will be how I told it to you. I suck at telling stories so you will be left with a mediocre version in your head. When you finally see the movie, it will in essence be your second viewing (of at least that part). While I agree with your point that you can still get enjoyment out of it, you missed out on the first viewing as it was meant to be viewed.

LarryC wrote:

Furthermore, there are media content wherein the broad plot points are necessarily spoiled. Spoiler: Superman wins. Spoiler: The Power Rangers will fight a kaiju monster and win. Spoiler: Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan get together in a heartwarming romantic ending.

We go into these content knowing what's going to happen; and to a certain extent, we want them to happen, we are looking for them to happen. We will be massively disappointed if the content doesn't go the way we already expect it to go. If you go into a Batman movie and it turns into a romcom where the climax and aftermath mainly deals with Batman's romantic misadventures with Catwoman and how they solved the mystery of the fake zombie monster in the BatMystery Machine, you're probably gonna be super pissed. This happens in games, too. Many players expected a save-the-world game from DA2, but they were given a personal story with a tragic ending instead. People felt robbed and cheated.

While there is truth in this, it unfortunately is what makes movies mediocre IMO. When a movie takes a well known path and gives people what they expect, I usually end up saying 'meh' afterwards. The best cliche example is the revival ending. If a character dies at the end of a movie, I almost always expect that character to come back, whether it is due to medical intervention, magic, prophecy, etc... it almost always happens. This actually cheapens the experience for me. The best movies are when a character dies and doesn't come back because it breaks my expectation. To give a subjective proof to my point, what is the best Star Wars movie ever made? Most people will say The Empire Strikes Back.

LarryC wrote:

In a way, we are looking to reviews to spoil games and movie content for us. Does the movie "deliver?" by we we're asking "Does it end the way I expect it to?" "Does Guacamelee deliver on the melee content?" Spoilers: you punch lots of guys in Guacamelee.

To some this is important but I agree with you on that part. I really don't care if someone spoils a movie by telling me there are lots of explosions or it will make me cry. Those really aren't plot spoilers. But some people do care. I agree with Gaalds point, if someone doesn't want to know, don't tell them.

But to counter Gaalds point (which I think he will agree) if you are in a group of people and they are talking about something they all have seen and you are the only one that hasn't, it is usually best to bow out instead of forcing that group to stick to spoiler free content. This is why I like having spoiler sections in the podcast, or special forum topics that are labelled as having spoilers.

Edit: Just read the part where Gaald agrees

I care about spoilers. I delight in being surprised.

The attitude of "if the enjoyment of your product comes from a single thing than f**k off" is why I've basically stepped away from all gaming discussion on GWJ. I guess I took the advice to heart the last time we all had this discussion. I think it sucks that my preference for not having someone else decide what is or is not an appropriate amount to tell me about an experience, despite the built-in tag system that makes that decision unnecessary, simply drove me away.

Elysium wrote:

Ok, guys.

Bowing out. I got my say at the start of the conversation, and fear I'm coming off as bullheaded and argumentative. Thanks for keeping me thinking, and honest.

Still think you guys are the best, even when you disagree. Except you, Gaald. Damn you to a thousand hells!

Spoiler:

Obviously, I'm joking, but I'm testing him to see if he dares click the spoiler button. If you did, hooray. I'm proud of you, buddy.

Actually, I appreciate the chance to talk about this - as I do all your threads of topics (because they're all argumentative! ;). It's interesting to see other people's takes on this. Ultimately, the real divide is in the small details: most people are civil and thus this issue is avoided and many people make mistakes and tread over lines and, when admitting to this, are excused of any social wrongdoing...

I think that "spoiler warz" are a minority of interactions in a place like GWJ because we think about each other... and if not, we learn to.

Oh, and that thing about Gaald. Yeah, I totally agree with you about him. F**k him and his TEC social engineering ways!

kazar wrote:

I completely agree with the part where some stories require to be experienced multiple times, but I still argue that taking away that first time to a spoiler, well spoils the first time. Lets take a hypothetical movie where the main character dumps his fiancee at the end and marries her sister. If I told you that before you saw the movie, your first experience with that part of the story will be how I told it to you. I suck at telling stories so you will be left with a mediocre version in your head. When you finally see the movie, it will in essence be your second viewing (of at least that part). While I agree with your point that you can still get enjoyment out of it, you missed out on the first viewing as it was meant to be viewed.)

It's like the time when your offspring/significant other plans an intricately detailed event for you - say, a weekend or party - only to have it spoiled by a third party (like a friend!). You can still enjoy the event but it's never going to be the same as if you had no foreknowledge...

For example:

The question comes down to if you think your son went to all that trouble trying to surprise you with that macaroni sculpture of Mario's triumph over Bowser (or is it King Koopa?) was better being spoilt by the teacher who saw it first and invited you into school to view it mid-term or if you had been deluded temporarily to not know what you were going to see was a better experience.

In part because of that arbitrariness, spoilers are selfish. They restrict and divide, asking people who have the temerity to be interested in talking about this thing they’ve experienced to please go somewhere else. They impose your schedule for consuming media onto others.

Well said, and a fine articulation of a point that I've never been eloquent enough to convey.

Whoo hoo! I'm glad you said this Sean/Shawn/Entity. I could give a rat's ass about spoilers. I could care less about a single event. If I'm not entertained by the majority of the product a plot twist isn't going to make it more enjoyable.

EDITED: I violated one my Internet rules. I said stuff I would not say to a person's face. I've therefore eliminated a portion of this post. Apologies.

TheHipGamer wrote:

I care about spoilers. I delight in being surprised.
The attitude of "if the enjoyment of your product comes from a single thing than f**k off" is why I've basically stepped away from all gaming discussion on GWJ. I guess I took the advice to heart the last time we all had this discussion. I think it sucks that my preference for not having someone else decide what is or is not an appropriate amount to tell me about an experience, despite the built-in tag system that makes that decision unnecessary, simply drove me away.

I've corrected my previous post. I violated one of my Internet rules by writing something I would never say to anyone were I in their presence. Apologies.

*if you hear back-pedalling you're hearing it right*

And to clarify I was referring to the producers of said entertainment product relying on surprises and twists in order to sell it. I was not calling out endusers (us).

*this post brought to you by the Taste of My Foot. Our motto is if you enjoy the Taste of My Foot You Got Problems.*

Spoiler:

Spoiler

*this post brought to you by the Taste of My Foot. Our motto is if you enjoy the Taste of My Foot You Got Problems.*

Consent problems, I'm assuming. I mean, so long as you're okay with it, it's a mutually consented thing between us, right?

kazar:

I completely agree with the part where some stories require to be experienced multiple times, but I still argue that taking away that first time to a spoiler, well spoils the first time. Lets take a hypothetical movie where the main character dumps his fiancee at the end and marries her sister. If I told you that before you saw the movie, your first experience with that part of the story will be how I told it to you. I suck at telling stories so you will be left with a mediocre version in your head. When you finally see the movie, it will in essence be your second viewing (of at least that part). While I agree with your point that you can still get enjoyment out of it, you missed out on the first viewing as it was meant to be viewed.

This is a yes and a no. Like I mentioned, and which I will carefully emphasize this time (for all readers' benefit, not for you specifically) some media have their content wholly bundled into The One Great Reveal. For those kinds of stories, the flip-turn is their entire raison d'etre, so no one should reveal that data point to anyone else who hasn't consumed the media. That's a true spoiler. This is a reiterated point for the benefit of readers (I'm assuming you already agree).

I would argue that Empire Strikes Back counts as this sort of media content. It's not particularly deep or all that well-made; the performances are kind of campy, and the dialogue is hamfisted. That reveal is its stock.

For other sorts of media, you actually need to spoil the material for people to stick with it, or for people to truly appreciate what's on offer. Trailers generally offer necessary background and spoiler material in order to generate anticipation - an enjoyable activity in itself - but also so that you're in the right information ballpark and mindset when you begin the material.

An example, I think, of material that's terrible on a first read is our very our Lord of the Rings. This work was not made to be enjoyable on a first read; Tolkien was more interested in fleshing out a fictional mythology complete with made up languages using his expertise in linguistics. Without all the understanding that reading it more than once and reading supplementary material besides, the book would be a terrible, boring first read. I get that a lot from people I've recommended the material to, over the years.

Telling potential readers certain things about it increases enjoyment.

"There's a point in the book where Aragorn will fight the Ringwraiths. That ruin location marks one of the last standing towers of the kingdom which his ancestors ruled over - the one that was destroyed by the Witch King. It's a grudge match."

That book needs a LOT of guiding and supplementary material to make it palatable to many readers. I would say that "spoiling" it is necessary to have an enjoyable experience - that the first experience is so bad that it's beneficial for everyone concerned to just skip it over.

A lot of very deep and complex material is of this nature. Wouldn't you love it if you could just experience a Starcraft 2 game as a Master-level player without having to slog through the lowest leagues? Wouldn't LoL be more accessible if everyone could just magically gain the base expertise and start off competent?

Classical works, especially, have a very high barrier of enjoyment. It's hard, these days, to find anyone willing to talk about the jocular humor of Austen, the sense of macabre that Bronte brings to her romances, or the view of Sherlock Holmes as an Action Hero.

Arguably, since the cultural milieu in which these works existed is now gone, it requires multiple readings and reflection just to enjoy them in the manner of a casual reader back in the day. These works need to be "spoiled" just so you can enjoy them the way they were meant to be enjoyed.

While there is truth in this, it unfortunately is what makes movies mediocre IMO. When a movie takes a well known path and gives people what they expect, I usually end up saying 'meh' afterwards. The best cliche example is the revival ending. If a character dies at the end of a movie, I almost always expect that character to come back, whether it is due to medical intervention, magic, prophecy, etc... it almost always happens.

Strange thing.

In many Japanese works made for adults (and Chinese, and Korean), the reverse is true. Tragedy is (was?) the expectation in these works, so writers and directors often do the reverse thing - regardless of how the plot was going up to that point, they write or direct it all away just to get to the "right" ending. It's funny to me how a completely happy ending sort of story suddenly takes a dive and everything just goes to hell - sometimes the turnabout is so artificial and so extreme it becomes comical, at least to someone like me.

There is a kind of Japanese play called the noh.

Noh (能 Nō?), or Nogaku (能楽 Nōgaku?)[1]—derived from the Sino-Japanese word for "skill" or "talent"—is a major form of classical Japanese musical drama that has been performed since the 14th century. Many characters are masked, with men playing male and female roles. Traditionally, a Noh "performance day" lasts all day and consists of five Noh plays interspersed with shorter, humorous kyōgen pieces. However, present-day Noh performances often consist of two Noh plays with one Kyōgen play in between.

While the field of Noh performance is extremely codified, and regulated by the iemoto system, with an emphasis on tradition rather than innovation, some performers do compose new plays or revive historical ones that are not a part of the standard repertoire. Works blending Noh with other theatrical traditions have also been produced.

Emphasis mine. Noh plays are so codified that each part of a play is expected to go a certain way and the plot is always expected - the enjoyment is derived from the execution of the elements, rather than the elements being unexpectedly juxtaposed.

My impression of Hollywood fare is that it has become like a Noh play. Hollywood material has become so rote that it's become heavily codified (see TVTropes). Examples of broad Hollywood scene elements:

The Bad Guy is my Best Friend
The Winning of the Girl
The Introduction of the Hero
Wimp Hero Takes a Level of Badass
Self Realization Leads to Victory

I could take a given movie and distill each scene into the next into an outline of things that are completely within trope territory. This is especially true of summer blockbusters, but even The Usual Suspects falls into trope-landia.

What I'm saying, I guess, is that I'm so old and have seen so much material that I can tell how a scene is going to be based on what's going into it - like a Noh play. My wife has read so many pocketbook romances that she can intuit the plot of a story based on the first ten and the last ten pages of any book. When you get to be my age, it's ALL expected. Nothing surprises you anymore.

Moreover, the best "surprise" revelations are also often played with using expectations. Sixth Sense plays with your expectations because it hides the truth behind movie walls. We don't see Willis peeing, eating, or really,

Spoiler:

doing anything like a human does

, but that's because that's normal for movies in general. We suspect nothing. Shyamalan leads us along with his intentional double entendre right up to the reveal.

This happened, too, with FFVII. Arguably, Westerners didn't get or can't get full appreciation of this because they (you) don't get exposed to Japanese anime as much. Up until Sephiroth kills Aeris, the entire storyline between Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris is played as a straight romance triangle story. An equivalent might be Ross shooting Chandler in the head after he finds out he's dating Monica, and then the entire thing turns into a murder drama. It's a little bit jump-sharkey, actually, but that's part of the reason why it was so shocking. Many players were heavily invested into Aeris at that point as a love interest, expecting a totally dating-sim ending. And then she dies.

As another equivalent, this would be like if in Mass Effect 2, the game was coded in such a way that the Collectors will shoot and kill whoever you were romancing at the time, during a particularly tender and touching scene where she was about to share her feelings with you.

You don't get the right impact for that sort of thing without the context. Spoilers that provide that context make the material better, not worse.

Had Baldur's Gate spoiled before I could touch it. Haven't touched it yet

For other sorts of media, you actually need to spoil the material for people to stick with it, or for people to truly appreciate what's on offer. Trailers generally offer necessary background and spoiler material in order to generate anticipation - an enjoyable activity in itself - but also so that you're in the right information ballpark and mindset when you begin the material.

An example, I think, of material that's terrible on a first read is our very our Lord of the Rings. This work was not made to be enjoyable on a first read; Tolkien was more interested in fleshing out a fictional mythology complete with made up languages using his expertise in linguistics. Without all the understanding that reading it more than once and reading supplementary material besides, the book would be a terrible, boring first read. I get that a lot from people I've recommended the material to, over the years.

Telling potential readers certain things about it increases enjoyment.

No this is what you believe to be true, but don't for a second think this is what everyone believes, or what everyone should believe.

It seems to me you've deluded yourself into thinking that because you have possibly read more books or watched more movies than most you have somehow figured out the best way for everyone to do so. There is no set of rules you can follow that will fit everyone's idea of what is considered acceptable information. You don't live inside my head and therefore have no clue what excites me about reading a new book or watching a new movie, or seeing a new play, etc.

The only thing you can truly do is ask the other person if they want any info before hand and respect their choice.

My god, had I never read LOTRO and you had given me the books to read and then started explaining sh*t to me before I got a chance to read it. I would have knocked you unconscious with the books and kicked you out the door. And then I would have never read the books.

And even with that NOH style you referred to. I have never seen that style of performance before, and I would hate for someone to ruin my first exposure to it. It'd be like having that friend who has seen the movie your both watching already and having him give away all the cool moments right before they happen. I knew a guy like that, and I stopped watching movies with him.

Er, that's, um... I'm going to assume that the knocking unconscious thing is a figurative thing. I hope that's alright.

It's not the amount of material I've consumed that makes me say that, and it's not "somehow," nor is it everyone. As a matter of fact, I've introduced and convinced a lot of people to try material they assumed that they would be averse to, and they found that with the right perspective, they enjoyed it. What gives me the idea that giving people the right sort of information (for them - it's not the same material for everyone) would increase their enjoyment of the material, is that I've done so and I've been successful before.

In fact, I've been approached by people who, for instance, know that I'm into something that they're not and then they ask me to spoil it for them "the right way" so that they "get it." I've recommended sci fi material to people who didn't like it before me, and romance material to people who didn't like it in general; I've gotten people into board games who weren't before, and into video games when they didn't consider themselves gamers.

Now clearly, if you're going to knock me unconscious I am not going anywhere within a mile of you while you're in that mood; and I'm never going to induce that mood ever again. That's just sensible, right?

The thing I'm getting at is that there's a foundation of information and context that makes a lot of works enjoyable, and for which they were designed. You won't understand a parody if you don't know the material that it's parodying. It's beneficial to give you that information and context.

What I'm saying is that a lot of material is like the punchline to a joke. Giving you the setup to the punchline isn't exactly what I would call "spoiler."

I'm curious -- how many people here who are very concerned about spoilers are parents? My attitude about spoilers has changed significantly over the past 10 years. I moved from a person who regularly consumed media at the point of release (movies, games, books, etc.) to a person who is lucky to ever consume media in any reasonable amount of time.

Movies are watched when they come out on video. Games -- maybe a few years later after a Steam sell. TV is always some DVR'ed show. My life has changed so drastically as a result of the demands of raising kids, that my expectations of any type of surprise in entertainment is almost nill. And I don't seem to mind.

That may also be why I am so drawn to sports. It is the one thing I still get to collectively enjoy with the rest of the world. Unless I am at a birthday party... or a swim meet... or a play date at the park... or......

Sparhawk wrote:

Had Baldur's Gate spoiled before I could touch it. Haven't touched it yet :(

What plot twist is there in Baldur's Gate? You start out weak, get stronger, kill the bad guy. Admittedly, it has been over 10 years since I played it. I just do not remember any "WOW" reveal moments, just good fun gameplay.

Now Planescape -- I can definitely remember several spoiler events in that game.

sheared wrote:
Sparhawk wrote:

Had Baldur's Gate spoiled before I could touch it. Haven't touched it yet :(

What plot twist is there in Baldur's Gate? You start out weak, get stronger, kill the bad guy. Admittedly, it has been over 10 years since I played it. I just do not remember any "WOW" reveal moments, just good fun gameplay.

Now Planescape -- I can definitely remember several spoiler events in that game.

That one party member betrays you in the end? I seemed like a big deal back then. I am going to play the game though. Especially with the new version out now.

Playing nearly every video game merely for the story is missing the point. If all you care about is the story, just watch the YouTube cutscenes.

People get so upset about what they think spoilers do that they miss the point of the product.

TheCounselor wrote:

Playing nearly every video game merely for the story is missing the point. If all you care about is the story, just watch the YouTube cutscenes.

People get so upset about what they think spoilers do that they miss the point of the product.

Getting back to something that's been said earlier - it's fine to make that decision for yourself, but when you start enforcing that opinion on other people, who prefer to consume media in a different way, you've crossed boundaries of politeness.

Tanglebones wrote:
TheCounselor wrote:

Playing nearly every video game merely for the story is missing the point. If all you care about is the story, just watch the YouTube cutscenes.

People get so upset about what they think spoilers do that they miss the point of the product.

Getting back to something that's been said earlier - it's fine to make that decision for yourself, but when you start enforcing that opinion on other people, who prefer to consume media in a different way, you've crossed boundaries of politeness.

Did you read about the beating and kicking someone for spoiling Lord of the rings?

Brizahd wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
TheCounselor wrote:

Playing nearly every video game merely for the story is missing the point. If all you care about is the story, just watch the YouTube cutscenes.

People get so upset about what they think spoilers do that they miss the point of the product.

Getting back to something that's been said earlier - it's fine to make that decision for yourself, but when you start enforcing that opinion on other people, who prefer to consume media in a different way, you've crossed boundaries of politeness.

Did you read about the beating and kicking someone for spoiling Lord of the rings?

Not saying Gaald is totally in the right either

But are we really not capable of seeing that, "this works for me" is not the same as "this works for everyone"?

The fact that this is practically a P&C discussion pretty much fuels my attitude that people take spoilers way too seriously.

I try to avoid them when I can, and I try to avoid spoiling anything when I can, but if you're response to being spoiled is genuine anger rather than "Oh damn, what an inconvenience" then you're taking it way too seriously.

And this is coming from someone that takes their love of entertainment way too seriously.

sheared wrote:

What plot twist is there in Baldur's Gate?

Spoilers aren't restricted to "the big plot twist". Those of us that want to enjoy the story for ourselves want to do so without any foreknowledge whatsoever.

TheCounselor wrote:

Playing nearly every video game merely for the story is missing the point. If all you care about is the story, just watch the YouTube cutscenes.

People get so upset about what they think spoilers do that they miss the point of the product.

Cool, more assertion that we're doing it wrong. I'm convinced now.

ccesarano wrote:

if you're response to being spoiled is genuine anger rather than "Oh damn, what an inconvenience" then you're taking it way too seriously.

I don't think I've ever seen it devolve into anger until the same people continue to disrespect NO SPOILER threads by posting stuff they don't feel is a spoiler. Usually the first time is more of a "C'mon. Really?" call out and getting the person to edit their post to at least tag it. It's when people blatantly choose to continue posting comments with spoiler content that things might get more heated. It's frustrating when those of us that still want to discuss media in a "safe" environment feel compelled to leave threads so as to avoid spoilers. And that's a recurring pattern.

Tanglebones wrote:
Brizahd wrote:
Tanglebones wrote:
TheCounselor wrote:

Playing nearly every video game merely for the story is missing the point. If all you care about is the story, just watch the YouTube cutscenes.

People get so upset about what they think spoilers do that they miss the point of the product.

Getting back to something that's been said earlier - it's fine to make that decision for yourself, but when you start enforcing that opinion on other people, who prefer to consume media in a different way, you've crossed boundaries of politeness.

Did you read about the beating and kicking someone for spoiling Lord of the rings?

Not saying Gaald is totally in the right either

But are we really not capable of seeing that, "this works for me" is not the same as "this works for everyone"?

Yeah and that is why we have spoiler threads and nonspoiler threads. Elysium's article brought us all here stating our opinions. It is understandable that each of us feel that we ourselves are more right than the others. But we need to have some mutual respect and forgiveness cause we are a community and I do not think anyone here is really trying to be an asshole. We just see something differently. Neither way is right or wrong just personal preference.

I can't think of a good solution to help people from getting exposed to spoilers. The spoiler tags works only if you can understand just exactly what someone will consider a spoiler. An extra warning window maybe that pops up with that threads spoiler rules that has to be clicked to post for every comment?

Tanglebones wrote:
TheCounselor wrote:

Playing nearly every video game merely for the story is missing the point. If all you care about is the story, just watch the YouTube cutscenes.

People get so upset about what they think spoilers do that they miss the point of the product.

Getting back to something that's been said earlier - it's fine to make that decision for yourself, but when you start enforcing that opinion on other people, who prefer to consume media in a different way, you've crossed boundaries of politeness.

This is exactly how I feel, and I guess I am confused why this is such a controversial opinion. Most spoiler averse people self police, i.e. avoid the spoilery thread/wiki/reviews. All we are saying is please be a bit considerate and not spoil for me. It is ok if you are down with spoilers - more power to you. I am not.