The Outsider

Even as a person who majored in the English language through my post-secondary education, I’m still a little fuzzy on the term “ironic,” so I’m not sure if it’s ironic or not that, as a co-creator of a website known for having developed a strong, tight-knit and supportive community, I myself feel that I’m generally terrible at being part of a community. Ironic or not, it does entertain me in a somewhat depressing, emotionally self-flagellating kind of way. [Ed. note: This is, of course, the True Way of the English major.]

We get questions sent to the podcast all the time from people who don’t know how to insert themselves into our GWJ community. From the outside looking in, this group of online strangers seems so comfortably close that it can seem impenetrable. While we say, “Just dive in and you’ll find a place,” which is very often true, I’ve also seen people who I know are trying to take that advice and yet seem to at the same time immediately either come off as trying too hard, or too aggressively, or too meek and self-deprecating, or who just don’t come in with the right tone. When that happens, I think a lot of people immediately feel, “Oh no. That didn’t work at all.” And more often than not, we never hear from those people again.

I sympathize with those folks, because in an odd way I know what they feel like. I look at the community for this site that I’ve put so much passion, energy and effort into over the years, and realize from time to time that while I was focused on all that stuff, what I forgot to keep doing was being part of the community. And now, in a very weird but tangible way, I look at the GWJ community and think to myself, “Man, looks like they’re having fun. I wish I was part of that community!”

I think of myself as really good at being an acquaintance, and pretty bad at being a friend. There are things about being a friend that just don’t come naturally to me, and while I do have friends (and I think they would largely say good things about me), I think every single one of the them has probably at some time thought to him or herself, “I wonder if Sean has forgotten I exist?”

This is, I think we can all agree, a pretty bad thing for your friends to think.

It’s not for lack of valuing friends, colleagues or communities. Part of the problem is that I spend a lot of time thinking that no one wants to hear from me unless I have specific value to offer. It is virtually impossible for me to say to someone, “Hey, let’s just chat because we haven’t done it in a while.” I need to go into that conversation with specific meaning and context. I need to be able to complete the sentence: “I want you to pay attention to what I am saying, because … .”

If I can’t get to that place, I operate from the assumption that my friends, despite the fact that I know they are my friends and therefore have provided evidence that suggests they just enjoy my company, only want to hear from me if there is important or specifically entertaining information to be conveyed. For example, I might say to my good friend Julian Murdoch, “I couldn’t help but notice your house is on fire and I thought you’d like to know.” That feels like an acceptable reason to trouble Julian with my presence.

This may seem oddly incongruous from someone who writes weekly missives for a publicly visible site. Here I am offering, unbidden in most cases, an array of barely credible thoughts on topics too many to name. The difference is — and I don’t entirely know how to break it to you — for most people reading this, we’re probably not friends. Doesn’t mean we couldn’t be if we knew each other (again, for most of you, we don’t). Which brings us full circle, because I feel like it’s that kind of perspective on the situation that is part of why I feel disconnected from the community.

In some ways, the only way I can share this kind of somewhat personal information with you, particularly since you haven’t asked me, is by having you be anonymous or at least detached. Wrap your brain around this conundrum: There are all kinds of things I would and have said in an article — things that are deeply personal and mean so much to me — which I wouldn’t trouble my friends with. In some bizarre and deeply troubled way, because we are not explicit friends, you have the opportunity to know me better than my own friends.

Lucky you.

All that takes me to an even weirder place, where I know in some ways the best, perhaps only way, I can successfully participate in the community of GWJ, is by convincing myself that I’m not actually part of that community.

I don’t like this thing about myself, mind you. And before you assume this is all related to some lack of self-confidence or undervaluing my worth, I wouldn’t recommend wasting a ton of time going down that road — There’s not a lot of meat on that bone. I just have a kind of eff’d up way of thinking about how human relationships work. I always figure people have a certain well of interest in being part of my life, and every interaction is either an opportunity to fill the well more full, or take something out. I’m well aware that just staying in touch and involved with people is part of filling the well, but in my backwards mind I always think of that kind of interaction as me hauling up a big, overflowing bucketful of water from an ever dwindling supply.

Disengagement reproduces parthenogenetically (Writers Note: the ed. is responsible for this word, I had to look it up). The more you disengage from people, the more likely you will keep disengaging from those people. Eventually the choice to not reach out to friends, colleagues or communities doesn’t feel like a choice. It feels like the thing everyone has agreed to do, and suddenly I feel not just that I shouldn’t reach out to these people — who still by the way mean a lot to me — but that I can’t.

It’s a messed up way of thinking about interaction, and I work to get past it where I can, but it does provide me room for sympathy and understanding when people talk about feeling like they can’t join in with a group. I have this group, right here, where arguably you could say I had a key role in helping the community to exist in the first place, and I don’t really know how to be a part of it. Which is funny because I respect it so much, appreciate its existence so much, and marvel so often at how generous and kind its members are.

It’s just that when I say that, there’s a part of me that feels like I am speaking as an outsider.

Comments

Dear Sean, me too.
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with us?
I'm right there with you on the well metaphor and generally requiring a "real" reason to speak to another human being.

I want to reiterate how awesome this article is, and that's only partially because of the original article. The other comments here have been insightful and inspiring and I am sharing this thread with a nephew of mine who's a gamer who is about to complete high school and is waaaaaay more socially isolated than even I was. I believe it will be a great benefit to him. Maybe he'll even start checking the site/call.

I want to reiterate how awesome this article is

Hooray!

and that's only partially because of the original article.

... awww.

Actually, I completely agree. It's been a real treat to watch this conversation.

Elysium wrote:
I want to reiterate how awesome this article is

Hooray!

and that's only partially because of the original article.

... awww.

Back, back to the dark beyond the stars, Elysium!

IMAGE(http://lovecraftismissing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/outsider-cover.jpg)

Jarpy wrote:
Coldstream wrote:

I imagine that most introverts have felt (as I so often have) an almost physical sense of need to withdraw from a loud party or supremely extroverted person[...]

Oh... like that time...

He was a perfectly nice extrovert I'm sure. It's just that he wouldn't stop talking, wouldn't break eye-contact, and steadfastly refused to leave that extra foot of space between us that I so needed. He was completely unable to notice my discomfort until the wine glass in my hand spontaneously broke. I had been unconsciously gripping it progressively tighter until it could stand no more. A brittle metaphor for my mind-state, right in the palm of my hand.

I would hate to think you are equating near-talkers with extroverts. I've known plenty of introverts that are also near-talkers.

Tanglebones wrote:
Elysium wrote:
I want to reiterate how awesome this article is

Hooray!

and that's only partially because of the original article.

... awww.

Back, back to the dark beyond the stars, Elysium!

IMAGE(http://lovecraftismissing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/outsider-cover.jpg)

IMAGE(http://images1.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Ponyboy-Curtis-the-outsiders-1136357_240_320.jpg)

Stay golden, Sean.

Great article and depressingly familiar to me. Although in my case the problem may be ingrained worth/confidence issues.

I tend not to contact friends unless it's for Birthdays, Christmas or they contacted me first. I always imagine they have something better to do than talk to me and I'm never completely sure that they would be happy if I rang them. One particular female friend will ring me for long chats every month or so. Each time I mentally swear I will ring her first next time but it's always she who rings me. After many years of her calling regularly I'm starting to believe that she actually enjoys talking to me and she would value a call in turn.

For what its worth here are my thoughts on the forums.

I've found it to be a learning process. I'm much more comfortable with posting now that I have been in the past and I have more of an immediate sense for what makes a worthwhile post. I spend much less time agonising over what to post or feeling uncertain after posting.

I've flown off the handle in the past and ended up in 'heated debates' I regret but I tend to forget other people's moments of madness and hope they will do the same for me. Now I try to 'defuse' my posts so they aren't emphatically stating that something is right or wrong. This can avoid backing people into a corner to the extent that they go for you (it's also a useful for softening the landing when it occasionally turns out that you were wrong.)

More and more I'm taking a straightforward practical approach to the forums. I post in threads for games I'm playing or have recently played and enjoyed. Sharing impressions with fellow goodjers and asking or answering questions is one of the very basic pleasures of the forum. I also tend to use the forums as an overly complex implementation of Twitter in that I will have a real life experience, good bad or random and will search for a suitable thread to share it in. Very often, after such a post, I'll move onto other things, leaving my little tale to be discovered over overlooked, like an interesting pebble on the beach that may or may not be picked up by a passerby.

I do venture into politics and controversy but I only tend to post when I'm very sure of my ground.

Higgledy wrote:

One particular female friend will ring me for long chats every month or so. Each time I mentally swear I will ring her first next time but it's always she who rings me. After many years of her calling regularly I'm starting to believe that she actually enjoys talking to me and she would value a call in turn.

Given the number of introverts and recluses here, linking to this page seems likely to prove illuminating.

I think one of the great ways to dive in is to support someone else's post and then relate it to personal experience. (saying +1 won't get you very far)

I think the most humiliating thing that doesn't have to be is making a new post and then have it be largely ignored or misunderstood.

I think phrasing things as a question will go a long way to convey that while you are making a statement, you are open minded to other interpretations.
I think what people forget is those of us who have been posting for a long time have undergone the same tribulations as all lurkers, initiates and coffee grinders have.

I also think it is much easier to be recruited to the site rather than stumbling upon it on your own. Rightly or wrongly, it is much easier to extend acceptance to someone attached to a GWJer with history.

I think the thing is that people don't realize it doesn't take much more than a handful of posts for the community to warm up to you. For some, I believe it has been like one post. For others it will take more. People take it personally but they really shouldn't.

Keithustus wrote:

Given the number of introverts and recluses here, linking to this page seems likely to prove illuminating.

It's crazy how obvious something can be and yet your brain just doesn't accept it and that none acceptance seems completely reasoned and logical.

fangblackbone wrote:

I think the most humiliating thing that doesn't have to be is making a new post and then have it be largely ignored or misunderstood.

My thought on posts of mine that don't receive replies is that they are either a) so self evidently a wise and true statement that they cannot be added to or challenged in any way, or b) so crazy and wrong headed that people don't even know how to start putting me right.

If a post doesn't receive responses it doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't been appreciated. There are a lot of posts I read that I consider funny or insightful that don't really lend themselves to a reply other than 'That's great!' which you can only do so often.

Higgledy wrote:

If a post doesn't receive responses it doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't been appreciated.

This. There have been innumerable posts that have made me thoughtful, happy, or burst out laughing, but I haven't replied to them. Even though I'm not a lurker, I only tend to post actively when the mood strikes me.

This. There have been innumerable posts that have made me thoughtful, happy, or burst out laughing, but I haven't replied to them. Even though I'm not a lurker, I only tend to post actively when the mood strikes me.

Twitter must be the worst kind of experience for people who struggle with this. I know on several occasions I've posted something, and when it doesn't get a response/retweet/favorite or whatever, I have this hint of a voice in the back of my head suggesting it's because what I said was worthless. That voice is a lot quieter than it used to be in my youth, but it never fully goes away.

I've given up expecting anything to happen with whatever I post to Twitter, even when I reply to others.

My philosophy has become "it's out there now, so whatever happens happens".

When you look into the abyss, the abyss probably, you know, YOLO!!!!!ONE!!1!

fangblackbone wrote:

I think one of the great ways to dive in is "I have beer, will you be friend?"

Fixed.

muraii wrote:

When you look into the abyss, the abyss probably, you know, YOLO!!!!!ONE!!1!

This is truth.

I suspect that this...wall and learning curve to getting involved into the community and forums is partly why I feel like this isn't the community it used to be when the front page and forums were more costly knitted. It's rare to see any staff members posting in the forums anymore. Since this has been on my mind lately, I went to look at front page articles and forum posts from the early days and you would see a huge amount of engagement from the writers. Not just Elysium and Certis but Pyro, Lobo, Fletch, The Fly, DuckiDeva, Kat, Chiggie, Danjo, Demiurge, Brennil, Malacola, etc. For better or worse, it's the staff that set the tone and direction in the early days and the glue that bound it all together. It's one of the reasons why people so strongly identify with the GWJ name and when we had over 100 folks show up to the PAX 2010 S&T.

I guess I feel left behind as others have moved on and formed stronger relationships outside, away from the forums.

tl;dr
GWJ is the Dark Souls of communities/forums.

Edwin, as a relative newcomer who has read most of the preserved early posts - I can say, wow - the tone was very different then. It is to be expected that any group like this is going to see heavy involvement from the founders in the beginning - set the tone, build the foundation, before letting self-sustainment take over.

It's cool to see so many of the "Commandment" posters still around today; overall it looks like GWJ has endured for a multitude of reasons. But, it's also difficult to feel like I belong here yet. I'm beginning to make, what I feel, are genuine e-connections with some members, but the pervasive and long-running inside jokes are still alien, and I can't help but feel buried by those occasionally. I sometimes sense resistance to letting new people in on stuff, but that may just be my social anxiety breaking through the real world and into the virtual world.

This is an amazing community for sure. I've said it a million times and truly mean it. First forum I've been active in in five years, at least. Now, there's a 65% chance that since I've posted, this thread is dead. Haha - I'm half-kidding there.

I should say, GWJ comes up in my normal conversation at home. My wife hears stories of posts on this forum, gaming plans with some of you, pictures of kids - 90% of the experiences here are INCREDIBLY positive.

I read back through the comments to see what I said when this article was originally posted. I don't think I was even accepted as a front page writer then.

I think my analogy still stands in regards to this place as a community. It's a town. Unfortunately, even when everyone lives in the same town, people change and grow apart. But at the same time, there are always new opportunities. I feel like Zoso has joined the list of members that I regularly look forward to discussing games with since we're both active in the Nintendo-related threads. So he may not feel like he's a part of it yet, but for me, he is, even if I'm not as tight with a lot of the old guard myself.

At the same time, I will confess, I've actually felt like my constant presence on the forums hurts my position as a front page writer. I don't sit down and fully think out what I want to say on the forums. I just say things as they come to mind. While I've largely worked on this when it comes to more political discussions, it grants people the opportunity to see me fail my INT check or WIS check. Moments where I slap myself in the forehead and think "Oh duh!", or get called out on logical fallacies that I'm going to want to defend instinctively. It's one thing to have Wordy look through and edit it, because I know where I stand with him. But when it's suddenly out there in front of a bunch of the community to witness, suddenly I feel like I'm not only devaluing my work as a contributor, but also as a representative of GamersWithJobs itself. My name is on the front page, and if people see me saying something stupid, then how does that reflect upon the Sheawns and Rabbit and Cory and Wordy and everyone else?

I suppose that I say this for two reasons. On the first, this community has been around for what, ten years? More? The unfortunate side effect is that it is going to change, but that is also a fortunate side effect. The founders and many of the previous writers may participate less frequently, but now doubtingthomas and I get to interact with you guys on another dimension that we hadn't before. This community gave something back to us that I know we're both very grateful for, and truth told I'd love to try and coax others into joining us as contributors. So there may be a changing of the guard, but that means new opportunities rather than the same old voices. This also means that folks like Zoso don't get shunned, but instead are welcomed in the corners where they will be appreciated.

Hearing those stories certainly makes it difficult. You hear about Rabbitcon and PAX meetings and all these gatherings GWJers had or forum members or previous writers getting a chance to be on Podcasts, and it's easy to feel like you're outside of all of that. But we're a large group, and I have found people that, even though I've never met them, I would call real friends. I've gamed with them, I've Skyped with them, I've e-mailed them. In fact, I owe a PM now to someone whose correspondence I've come to look forward to.

Reading your post reminded me that if I wasn't participating on the forums, I likely wouldn't be so energized to contribute articles on the front page and I wouldn't be having some of the fantastic, wonderful conversations that I've had. So despite all of my doubts and concerns, I now feel reassured that, sure, I may make stupid mistakes, but in the long run I feel better about my involvement here.

I don't know if that was comforting or not, or if it read as me just blabbling without a point (because it kind of was), but I hope it can help cheer you up.

ccesarano wrote:

I suppose that I say this for two reasons. On the first, this community has been around for what, ten years? More? The unfortunate side effect is that it is going to change, but that is also a fortunate side effect. The founders and many of the previous writers may participate less frequently, but now doubtingthomas and I get to interact with you guys on another dimension that we hadn't before. This community gave something back to us that I know we're both very grateful for, and truth told I'd love to try and coax others into joining us as contributors. So there may be a changing of the guard, but that means new opportunities rather than the same old voices. This also means that folks like Zoso don't get shunned, but instead are welcomed in the corners where they will be appreciated.

That's sort of how I look at it, too. A lot of folks who write for us end up growing as individuals in ways that make it hard for them to keep writing for us, or to find the time to hang out in the forums (I'm certainly guilty myself, especially of the latter). As much as I want to keep people around, I'm not going to tell someone to turn down a new job so that they'll have enough free time to keep posting here, so I have to keep on finding new voices, pulling up folks (hopefully willing folks) from the forums.

Because otherwise I'm going to have to do more of my own writing. Ugh.

Chris - thanks! That means a lot coming from you. Read your original post, and you're right - there are many 'neighborhoods' of this big Ol' GWJ Nation and we've got our corners of comfort.

Being a part of a community I value as much as I do this one has caused me to do things that are out of my comfort zone - an Internet Secret Stanta? Giving all my information to a random (and awesome, and not random anymore) was a huge leap of faith. Planning on going to someone's house I know only from this site?

I'm going in a direction that maybe isn't appropriate to this post, but as I've outgrown my physical friends, finding less and less in common with those I've known for years - interacting with those here in the corners I frequent is just great.

We get what we put into a community, and the respect I view Chiris, Edwin and many other names I see pop up all the time is from the obvious effort that they've put in to making the community what it is, and what it will be in the future. I'm glad to be a part of that, and wish I had found it sooner.

I can definitely relate to the article, despite being here a while. (Seven years, already?) Part of that is maybe because I don't talk about everything I've got going on, since I come here to relax and sometimes I'd rather not cross the streams. So there's some personal stuff that I haven't shared and that sometimes makes me feel a bit stand-off-ish. And part of it is probably because I'm introverted, like many others here, apparently.

These days I feel a bit less of an outsider, but not entirely. I think it's a general rule that sometimes posts that you poured your heart and soul into won't get a reply, even when people like it. And it can be hard to tell if people remember your personality or not, especially if you're the insecure type.

I do think the idea of there being lots of little neighborhoods is apt; sometimes even individual treads have their own subculture. If I had to offer advice to someone new, it'd be to pick a thread about something you're really interested in and participate. (And stay out P&C. If you have to ask, you're not ready.)