Official Team Fortress 2 Game Nights (PC)

Well, if VAC allows scripts, then people will use them. I'm too lazy to mess around with that stuff, but now that I know they exist, I guess I'll just factor that in when mentally assessing of my own skills. I don't go by the scoreboard, because it doesn't seem to understand that I am the greatest.

Last night I was blowing myself up in setup to help build uber and had to be informed that that little trick had been changed in the latest patch. Even though it's useless, I kind of enjoyed doing it, and it doesn't do any harm, so maybe I'll still blow myself up once in a while.

I don't see where scripts are cheating at all. I have yet to configure any scripts, do to still learning the game. In the past in other games, I personally only use scripts to rearrange certain hotkeys with different classes. However, I do agree that Medics should have a way to not have to hold down a button for 90% of the game. That is a terrible design flaw in the game. As far as scripts for the spy's, well I think it is part of the game.

I am also not a very good spy, although I did manage to pick up the achievement for having an enemy medic heal me. I did better as pyro.

I'm almost done with my "one round with each class rotation", but I'm not actually sure which class I have left. I think it's demoman or engineer.

As far as scripts for the spy's, well I think it is part of the game.

Really, so you would have no problem playing an engineer and having a spy walk up to you sapping your sentry switching to his knife and backstabbing you with the press of ONE button, than hitting just ONE more button and having the spy disguise himself with a random disguise, avoiding having to choose on the fly. While were at it he could he could throw in a cloak as well. Trust me that's not easy to do without a script but it is possible. With a script I could do it without blinking.

Spies are a pain in the ass as it is, but I always felt having the practice needed to become good at that leveled the playing field. Well now any one can be the uber spy with a couple of clicks of the button. The same goes for whatever scripts are out there for Rocket Jumping etc.

If that's what Valve wanted they would programed the game that way, or at least patched it in since release. I certainly haven't seen them do that, so how is it part of the game?

Someone mentioned in competitive game play that scripts are must? When did this become about competitive game play? I ain't looking to win a tournament. I play with the folks on GWJ to have a good time, I trusted that we were all there to have a good time and we all wanted a place to go where we didn't have to worry about things like script kiddies, and grievers and all the other junk out there. A place where I didn't have to wonder if we were all playing on a level playing field. When did this all change? I am truly disappointed.

It's pretty... lazy? It's pretty lazy to have to write a script just to disguise yourself. It's not very hard in the first place. With a little practice, it can be done very quickly and easily. I don't see the purpose of having a script to do something so simple.

I'm in the boat where I would rather have a server without scripts. Being able to pull of repeatable things perfect every time does seems a little lame.

Gaald wrote:
As far as scripts for the spy's, well I think it is part of the game.

Really, so you would have no problem playing an engineer and having a spy walk up to you sapping your sentry switching to his knife and backstabbing you with the press of ONE button, than hitting just ONE more button and having the spy disguise himself with a random disguise, avoiding having to choose on the fly. While were at it he could he could throw in a cloak as well. Trust me that's not easy to do without a script but it is possible. With a script I could do it without blinking.

Spies are a pain in the ass as it is, but I always felt having the practice needed to become good at that leveled the playing field. Well now any one can be the uber spy with a couple of clicks of the button. The same goes for whatever scripts are out there for Rocket Jumping etc.

If that's what Valve wanted they would programed the game that way, or at least patched it in since release. I certainly haven't seen them do that, so how is it part of the game?

Someone mentioned in competitive game play that scripts are must? When did this become about competitive game play? I ain't looking to win a tournament. I play with the folks on GWJ to have a good time, I trusted that we were all there to have a good time and we all wanted a place to go where we didn't have to worry about things like script kiddies, and grievers and all the other junk out there. A place where I didn't have to wonder if we were all playing on a level playing field. When did this all change? I am truly disappointed.

Agreed. I like to feel I have a chance via my own skill or lack thereof. Having the odds stacked against me does not a fun time make. I feel the spy does not need any more advantages than it has currently. If anything, the spy should have its hit points reduced by 20%. But I digress. I enjoy GWJ because we are a community that typically plays for the fun of it. If I wanted to get "pwn3d" by script kiddies who think I am "teh gay" because I cannot headshot every single time (scripted) , I would go play public matches of Counterstrike (another Valve game). But instead I choose to play TF2 with goodjers where only skill and a low ping will give you an advantage. Ultimately, I could care less if goodjers use scripts out in the wild, but within the community it feels like a trust (albeit unspoken) has been broken. I could very easily script up something for my Nostromo, but I choose not to because to me it lessens my skills thereby my enjoyment of the game. My 2 cents or rather 4 Canadian cents.

Wow, I really don't get the strong feelings about the scripting. Keybinding, scripts, "programmable hotkeys" - whatever you call them have been a part of every Valve game since HL1. They are widely used in other games like UT as well. Everybody I knew who played TFC or CS 1.6 used scripts.These do not replace skill. There is nothing that a script can do for you that is going to make you consistently beat the other guy. They are a way of economizing key presses for frequent actions. You are just changing the keybinds in the Valve user cfg (text) files to minimize extra keypresses. They are not anything new or foreign. Valve created the keybind system to allow for this. Any pub server you play on, half the people are using scripts. There is nothing shady or hackerish about setting these up. I'll provide the scripts/keybinds and info to use them to anybody who wants them.

Okay, enough bickering about scrips for now, some screenshots from tonight's games.

There has been a lot of curiosity about what the new achievement effect looks like. Dr. Ghastly earned one by killing me, so I was able to snap a picture just as it appeared above his head:
IMAGE(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6403/drghastlyyd8.jpg)

We played Dustbowl quite a few times tonight, since Jakeleg was on to switch maps and everyone likes it. The scores got a little insane during one of the games, congratulations to MyBrainHz for topping the score charts. And if 12 team points seems a little high, remember that each Capture Point captured counts as one point, so it is only two complete rounds of Dustbowl:
IMAGE(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/21/cpdustbowl0000kx5.jpg)

Just a random "Killed By" image, except I though the body part arrangement and blood sprays were rather artistic. Nothing like a bit of prettiness made out of someones dismembered body:
IMAGE(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2613/shazamkz0.jpg)

Feeank was incredibly determined to defend his team's intelligence:
IMAGE(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4516/feeanksj1.jpg)

Gaald wrote:

Really, so you would have no problem playing an engineer and having a spy walk up to you sapping your sentry switching to his knife and backstabbing you with the press of ONE button, than hitting just ONE more button and having the spy disguise himself with a random disguise, avoiding having to choose on the fly. While were at it he could he could throw in a cloak as well. Trust me that's not easy to do without a script but it is possible. With a script I could do it without blinking.

Spies are a pain in the ass as it is, but I always felt having the practice needed to become good at that leveled the playing field. Well now any one can be the uber spy with a couple of clicks of the button. The same goes for whatever scripts are out there for Rocket Jumping etc.

I've probably been backstabbed by spies as much as anybody. I've come to accept it. I know it sucks but it is part of the game/class balance which seperates this game from others. As far as playing engy, I try to keep my back to a wall/dispenser so they can't sneak up and stabb me in the back and I'm constantly spy checking. So it makes no difference to me either way.

I never knew about scripts until I read this thread earlier tonight. I was thinking about it as we played and I was starting to lean towards the side of letting scripts happen because they didn't seem to give anybody an obvious advantage.

That was until a match on Smooth where I saw the most perfect rocket jump by Jakeleg. It was the kind of rocket jump that I don't have the ability to pull off and it allowed him to get to a place I could only stare at. Now my opinion on scripts rests with whether that was a scripted rocket jump or whether Jakeleg is just that awesome. If Jakeleg is just that awesome, then I'm fine with scripts as I've never witnessed any other such event where I was amazed with how it was possible. If it was scripted, then I feel scripts obviously give an unfair advantage to the player who uses them.

Sorry for calling you out on this Jakeleg but it was the first moment in TF2 where I've been so amazed at somebodies skill that I questioned whether game enhancers were used.

Certis wrote:

You. Play. To. Win. The. Game.

Dramatic. And. Ambiguous.

I've known about scripts in the past (CS and UT always had some), but I've never been comfortable with the need to program (or find programs) in an FPS, functionality for it nonwithstanding. Some stuff should just be clunky to do.

Anyway, the spy stuff doesn't concern me much - a bit cheesy, maybe, but not a huge deal - but how does the rocket jump script work? I envision it a.) pointing down b.) making you jump c.) firing all with perfect timing. Which, to me, takes the difficult part out the equation.

Staats wrote:
Certis wrote:

You. Play. To. Win. The. Game.

Dramatic. And. Ambiguous.

I've known about scripts in the past (CS and UT always had some), but I've never been comfortable with the need to program (or find programs) in an FPS, functionality for it nonwithstanding. Some stuff should just be clunky to do.

Anyway, the spy stuff doesn't concern me much - a bit cheesy, maybe, but not a huge deal - but how does the rocket jump script work? I envision it a.) pointing down b.) making you jump c.) firing all with perfect timing. Which, to me, takes the difficult part out the equation.

//Rocket Jump
alias +rocketjump "+jump;+duck;wait;+attack"
alias -rocketjump "-jump;-attack;wait;wait;wait;-duck"
bind mouse2 "+rocketjump"

Just look down and press mouse2.

(Just a disclaimer I don't use scripts because I'm too lazy to set them up.)

//Rocket Jump
alias +rocketjump "+jump;+duck;wait;+attack"
alias -rocketjump "-jump;-attack;wait;wait;wait;-duck"
bind mouse2 "+rocketjump"

Just look down and press mouse2.

That right there seems a little bit beyond simply "not having to hold my mouse button down" or "switching from one weapon to another quickly" so far as scripts go. Rocket jumping is supposed to be hard and difficult to do properly under duress.

A few other scripts that seem like a bit more than just making button presses quicker. It's hard for me to see past some scripts that make some common practices faster than a human could do using single key presses.

//MAKES IT SO THAT AS SOON AS YOU STOP ATTACKING YOU AUTOMATICALLY REDISGUISE
alias +backstab1 "+attack"
alias -backstab1 "-attack; lastdisguise"
bind "mouse1" "+backstab1"
bind "mouse3" "slot3"
This script auto-disguises "randomly" after a back stab. Posted verbatim. (Credit: kerneld)

Note: credit, where credit is due (besides Stryfex's great, and hard, work, of course) .. I'm gonna use part of Patty's Spy code here

alias +backstab1 "+attack"
alias -backstab1 "-attack; nextdisguise"
bind "mouse1" "+backstab1"
bind p "tooglecolorRed"

alias tooglecolorRed "alias nextdisguise RedDemo; developer 1; echo ** Using RED Disguises **; wait 10; developer 0; bind p tooglecolorBlue"
alias tooglecolorBlue "alias nextdisguise BlueDemo; developer 1; echo ** Using BLUE Disguises **; wait 10; developer 0; bind p tooglecolorRed"
alias nextdisguise "BlueDemo"

//RED TEAM ALIASES
alias BlueDemo "disguise 4 1; wait; alias nextdisguise BlueEngy"
alias BlueEngy "disguise 9 1; wait; alias nextdisguise BlueSniper"
alias BlueSniper "disguise 2 1; wait; alias nextdisguise BluePyro"
alias BluePyro "disguise 7 1; wait; alias nextdisguise BlueDemo"

//BLUE TEAM ALIASES
alias RedDemo "disguise 4 2; wait; alias nextdisguise RedEngy"
alias RedEngy "disguise 9 2; wait; alias nextdisguise RedSniper"
alias RedSniper "disguise 2 2; wait; alias nextdisguise RedPyro"
alias RedPyro "disguise 7 2; wait; alias nextdisguise RedDemo"

-- Starts always with Blue Team, and everytime you press the 'toogle color' button, and right at the beginning, starts the cycle with the DemoMan.

Demoman Scripts

In this script, just fire off a sticky bomb, run over it, and push x. (Credit: Not sure, educate me if you can)

//Classic Pipebomb Jump
alias +pj "+lj; +attack2"
alias -pj "-lj"
alias +lj "+duck;wait;wait;+jump"
alias -lj "-duck;-jump; -attack2"
bind "x" +pj

I don't think people using scripts are immoral monsters by any stretch. I don't even mind playing with or against them. It's not like your raw skill or aim is magically getting better by being able to perform certain non-combat specific maneuvers more efficiently. That said, this is taking the game to the next level and it reflects a certain attitude you typically find in folks who play a game online multiple times a week. It's the last logical step to eek as much skill and success out of the game as possible. When I see that people are using rocket jumping scripts, telling team mates they're not placing teleporters the right way and generally trying to be optimal in every facet of the game, it's a different vibe when you pop in for a Friday night game.

As someone who's been necessitated by work to spend about a month away, I feel like I'm stepping into a different game than I was playing two months ago. Everyone knows exactly what they're about, what every tactic is and the optimal way to win. Scripts are symptomatic of a fun multiplayer game becoming a serious competition. If you're not in that mindset, it's a bit tougher to integrate and have a sexy fun time. This is, of course, more of a general observation. Jake's server is filled with great people who (mostly) don't take things too seriously.

I suppose I just get to feeling like I can't take that next step in competition with the rest of the regulars and scripts play a part in that.

Tannhauser wrote:

Feeank was incredibly determined to defend his team's intelligence:
IMAGE(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4516/feeanksj1.jpg)

We may not have go to harvard, but we is no stoopid

feeank wrote:
Tannhauser wrote:

Feeank was incredibly determined to defend his team's intelligence:
IMAGE(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4516/feeanksj1.jpg)

We may not have go to harvard, but we is no stoopid

+1

Tonight was my first TF2 night and was very interesting except I didn't have a lot of the maps and got tired of waiting for them to download

Certis wrote:

I feel like I'm stepping into a different game than I was playing two months ago.

I feel the same way too, except I've been playing regularly.

When I see that people are using rocket jumping scripts, telling team mates they're not placing teleporters the right way and generally trying to be optimal in every facet of the game, it's a different vibe when you pop in for a Friday night game.

I think this happens to almost every multiplayer game. After the initial "wow this is fun" and players start getting familiar with the game, then naturally the next step is to be optimal in every facet if the game. That said, I'm never that serious about a game that I'd go all out to win, as that'd no longer make the game fun for me. You guys may have noticed that I play very inconsistently, ranging from the top of the scoreboard to the very bottom. I don't always go with the optimal strategy to win, but sometimes I'd take some time to explore new ways to play the game, like what creative places can I put a sentry gun.

Although, the problem with doing things sub-optimally is that the other team might be optimal, and you'd risk letting your team get steamrolled. GWJ has become very good in terms of skill, where the top few players can even carry the team. It sometimes gets frustrating for me to be constantly whooped by goodjers way better than me, but I still go on and help my team however I can. The overall vibe of the game has definitely changed I'd say, but you gotta find your own ways to make the game fresh and fun.

And now, for some win:

http://www.aperturescience.com/

Pay attention to the tree ornaments.

I know people play video games for different reasons. However, I am a naturally competitive person. Video games probably bring out the worst side of this. It started with my older brother years ago playing football on Atari. To this day we still get together and play Madden and talk trash. With that being said I love good competition. That is one thing about Jake's server I've noticed. The good players tend to split up to make teams as even as possible for the most part and allow those who are or aren't serious about competitive team play enjoy the game. I feel like most people realize this and don't care about the win or loss total at the end of the night as long as teams seemed to stay balanced and are not getting steam rolled. At least that is how I feel.

nsmike wrote:

And now, for some win:

http://www.aperturescience.com/

Pay attention to the tree ornaments.

I tried but the video is too dark and the ornaments are too small. What are they companion cubes?

They're TF2 dudes, but you can only see them if you're a real man.

Certis wrote:

They're TF2 dudes, but you can only see them if you're a real man.

Or you use zoom. Doh!

I won't comment any more on the scripts after this, but I guess my attitude stems from my background. I played in some very competitive clans for TFC, CS, UT and Battlefield 1942 and 2. We played in multiple leagues and practiced 2 or 3 nights a week. Using scripts is just part of the FPS scene that I am used to. It was just accepted as normal procedure for these types of games. You would never play without them. I understand this is probably not what most GWJ'ers are used to. I have no problem not using scripts if that is what people want for Stan's. Ironically enough, my favorite class -the Heavy- doesn't benefit from any of these keybinds

My final statement on the matter is if you are attributing some player's apparent skill to their use of a keybind script, then you really don't understand scripts. A keybind won't aim for you or make you choose the correct tactic in a certain situation.

nsmike wrote:

Funny, I looked through all of the TF2 menus and the entire options section, and I couldn't find a place to enter these scripts.

All HL-related games use .cfg files, it's where your key bindings and settings are all stored. Not only that, but you've also got the console available to you, which is how we did a lot of keybinding back in the Quake days. The idea that these built-in features are invalid if there's no shiny user-friendly GUI waiting for you is silly.

I haven't even used a TF2 script yet, and looking at FPSBanana, the only ones of mild interest to me are the Engineer one-button builds (drop the dispenser here), which, like most of the TF2 scripts, do little more than save a keystroke or two.

Certis wrote:

That right there seems a little bit beyond simply "not having to hold my mouse button down" or "switching from one weapon to another quickly" so far as scripts go. Rocket jumping is supposed to be hard and difficult to do properly under duress.

Perhaps, but at the same time, the script only automates the easy part - the timing between the jump and the rocket fire.

It does not:
* Put you at the right launching spot
* Turn you to face the right way so that you don't fly at an angle
* Aim downwards quickly and at the correct angle

And frankly, I don't think the script is even that good - by confining to one set timing between jump and rocket fire, it means you can't control the height of your jump. I imagine it's set to give you maximum air, which means a hard, damaging landing for small jumps. I play Soldier mostly, but I don't see any value in this script.

I didn't know anyone back in the TF,TFC days that didn't use scripts. You had them for conc jumping to rocket jumping. It does elliminate the worry of trying to pull off hard moves under duress, but like what has already been mentioned. It doesn't change much. Only reason i've not been using scripts yet is just pure laziness.

Rocket jumping once you get used to it is quite easy and many of us were doing this before people were aware of the macros for TF2.

*Legion* wrote:

The idea that these built-in features are invalid if there's no shiny user-friendly GUI waiting for you is silly.

I don't happen to think that idea is silly at all. I think that if valve wanted you to make scripts to automate certain skills, they would've let you make the changes in the same place as changing regular key bindings, but as it stands, you are modifying game files outside of the game environment. Just because you can do this, doesn't mean it's a "built-in feature."

And I really don't understand the side of the argument that claim these scripts don't in some way boost your game. In every case, it takes actions that would be multiple keypresses and reduces them to a single keypress. Someone explain to me how that's not a booster to your game.

EDIT: I decided, before I give up on the game completely, to give a few of these scripts a try myself, and see just how much it could actually change someone's game; to try and see things from a scripter's perspective. Can't say I'm optimistic though.

nsmike wrote:

I don't happen to think that idea is silly at all. I think that if valve wanted you to make scripts to automate certain skills, they would've let you make the changes in the same place as changing regular key bindings, but as it stands, you are modifying game files outside of the game environment. Just because you can do this, doesn't mean it's a "built-in feature."

I would like to point out, not in defense of scripts you understand but simply because it is the truth, that Valve undoubtedly did allow for scripts. They built all the support scripts need into the game, and left it all open precisely so people could build and use them. They simply didn't make it very user friendly. In fact, you don't modify game files at all, you create a new file with the scripts in it, that the game loads automatically. It is on par with manually installing a map or spray. On the other hand, what scripts can accomplish are limited by the support Valve has built in for them. Since you are relegated to only using commands the game will recognize, you can only accomplish so much. I'm not attempting to justify scripts, only laying out the facts of the matter.

nsmike wrote:

Augh, this whole situation has me so frustrated. I guess I won't be coming back to the server anymore. I know I've made some enemies with this line of thinking, and if I can't find a pure environment to play this game on this server, I know I won't find it on the public servers, so I guess I'm done with TF2. It's been a good run.

And this situation leaves me frustrated. It has been fun playing with you NSMike, I do not want to see you leave, especially under such circumstances. I really doubt you have made any enemies, though obviously not everyone agrees with you. At the very least, we can try to come to some overall agreement on the matter before it comes to this sort of thing.