WoW: BHA: Offical Loot Rule Post

We have all been excellent to each other and having fun! We have reached a point where our current loot rule system needed tweaking. Fed started a post a while back and rather than bury the new rules in that post, I started another one. The officers met and here are the results. Rather than type the main loot rules again, I have lifted my post from Feds original thread.

We have decided that there will be two sets of loot rules. The first is the main guild position. The second is a modified version for end game raiding.

The Loot Rules to be followed at all times except when you are end game raiding are :

Basically our loot rules are a direct reflection of the guild rules. Play nice and be excellent to each other. To translate this to loot rules.... if it is an upgrade, no matter if it is green/blue/purple/orange /whatever color, call it as an upgrade and wait to see if anyone else calls it as an upgrade or need. I say wait because there have been occasions when an individual has passed on said item or picked greed and cannot change to a need roll. Provided noone else calls the item, roll need. Should 1 or more people also want said item, make sure everyone chooses the same roll ie... greed/need/pass. This especially important with the BOP (bind on pickup items). BOE ( bind on equip) items can easily be traded should a mistake occur.

If the item is BOE, always roll greed if you are interested in the item no matter the reason. If someone needs the item, they should speak up. If someone passes, they are not interested.

If the item is BOP, always pass unless it is an upgrade for you. If it is an upgrade, call it and follow afore mentioned procedure.

Items that noone wants will go to the person who can DE and then they will either keep the enchanting mat or the group will roll random 1-100 to determine who gets the mat. Trollslayer keeps a bank of mats for enchanting guild items. If you need assistance with an enchant, be nice

The GWJ rules are designed to get upgrades for all of us and allowing folks to roll on multiple items is fine with me.
Noone in GWJ should feel like a greedy filthy animal because we all are there for the same reason and frankly, if your guild isn't going to help you upgrade, who will?

These rules do differ from the various guild alliances or PUG rules. In those outings, you will find folks are a bit more persnikety about items. Those rules tend to be one purple/blue per run pass on all BOP and greed all BOE. Or, there will be a master looter and folks get items based on raid points. I do not like the raid point system and we will never use that in GWJ BHA.

For the end game raids, we run into conflict with the current system because the loot there is specifically designed with class and spec in mind. Many can use the item, but it is designed for only one class/spec. The Loot Rules have been modified to reflect this fact in the hopes that it will allow the best choices for the guild in the fairest manner possible.

The Loot Rules for Kara and Zulaman modify the afore mentioned rules as follows:
For these runs we have a Loot Master, this saves us having constant rolling for greens. For the boss drops and all other blue and purple drops, the Loot Master will say who may roll.
For the BoE items, please call need, before you roll and say it is an upgrade for the character you brought to the raid. Also, we ask that you then link the item the BoE is replacing. We have found that sometimes an item thought to be an upgrade was not or that it was a sidegrade. Preference will be given to those who are upgrading rather than sidegrading. The blended classes are asked to consider their usual role in the raid when choosing a need/upgrade item. If a BoE item is one you want for a character not brought to the raid, roll greed.

We hope this will help clear up any confusion.

Also, a few words about the Guild Bank. We have one and atm all armor and weapons go to Haapada. Everything else goes to Bankia. Anyone may deposite and we ask that you deposite before asking for withdrawls. I reserve the right to be picky about who gets the valuable stuff. We are trying to spread the wealth to everyone. Usually I send a huge wall of spam to link the items. If you would like an item, plese send me a pm. We expect this to change when 2.3 agoes live. The process will be revisited at that time.

Khush

Thanks for the concise definitions. I did have one question though.

Kiri wrote:

If the item is BOE, always roll greed if you are interested in the item no matter the reason. If someone needs the item, they should speak up. If someone passes, they are not interested.

....

Items that noone wants will go to the person who can DE and then they will either keep the enchanting mat or the group will roll random 1-100 to determine who gets the mat. Trollslayer keeps a bank of mats for enchanting guild items. If you need assistance with an enchant, be nice

These two rules taken together would seem to imply that desiring the item for DE purposes to work on enchanting skill should not be included in greeding BoEs, is that correct? That would come under the results of applying the second rule, right? Not sure if it would be useful to clarify the various reasons for greeding. For me in PUGs, it's usually to sell for coin or pass to a DE. I could see saving it for another char as well, not sure what other possibilities might be.

I'm not implying I want to see more formal rules; I'm just always paranoid about unintentionally upsetting people...

robkid wrote:

Thanks for the concise definitions. I did have one question though.

Kiri wrote:

If the item is BOE, always roll greed if you are interested in the item no matter the reason. If someone needs the item, they should speak up. If someone passes, they are not interested.

....

Items that noone wants will go to the person who can DE and then they will either keep the enchanting mat or the group will roll random 1-100 to determine who gets the mat. Trollslayer keeps a bank of mats for enchanting guild items. If you need assistance with an enchant, be nice

These two rules taken together would seem to imply that desiring the item for DE purposes to work on enchanting skill should not be included in greeding BoEs, is that correct? That would come under the results of applying the second rule, right? Not sure if it would be useful to clarify the various reasons for greeding. For me in PUGs, it's usually to sell for coin or pass to a DE. I could see saving it for another char as well, not sure what other possibilities might be.

I'm not implying I want to see more formal rules; I'm just always paranoid about unintentionally upsetting people...

Until recently we had few enchanters. You will find that when there is more than one enchanter present it is usually discussed who will take the item. If an item is an upgrade, that person should call need. With that in mind, it is doubtful you will offend anyone

Thanks for writing this up boss

Although, I noticed there wasn't anything written about sidegrades or hybrid classes and the loot. Did we want to clarify that here too? Or is that encompassed in the "Loot Master will say who may roll" aspect?

That is a good question. I lumped it into the Loot Master will say who may roll. A clarification may be a good idea.

Question for clarification on this (saying "loot master decides" doesn't answer this in advance ;)): if a healing item drops, would anyone specced for healing that could equip it (though not cloth for a paladin, for example, as that's usually silly) and use it as an upgrade be allowed to roll? For example, the healing mace that the Maiden drops, would every healing-specced druid, shaman, priest, & paladin in the raid be allowed to roll?

For example, the healing mace that the Maiden drops, would every healing-specced druid, shaman, priest, & paladin in the raid be allowed to roll?

Yes, as long as it's an upgrade and not a sidegrade.

Makes sense.

What confuses me is that I thought that's what we were originally doing back when I was running Kara with you guys. I thought this thread implied that changed.

Farscry wrote:

Makes sense.

What confuses me is that I thought that's what we were originally doing back when I was running Kara with you guys. I thought this thread implied that changed.

There were other discrepancies that needed to be addressed, and overall, if the item is meant to be used by your class AND spec and is an upgrade, it should be rolled need. It's when you get into the hybrids and offspecs that become a grey area, in particular cases where Kara was not designed with specific class specs in mind (ie - balance druid, prot pally, etc). Likewise, for items where is it not your spec, it should not be a need roll (ie - Holy Pally for Prot or DPS plate).

Farscry wrote:

though not cloth for a paladin, for example, as that's usually silly

Its not silly at all, if it makes you better healer. The versatility of the pally is that they can where every armor type. The only thing with this is that if your rolling on a piece of cloth that one of the actually clothies need. It is much harder for them, so in that case it would be appropriate to pass.

Farscry wrote:

Makes sense.

What confuses me is that I thought that's what we were originally doing back when I was running Kara with you guys. I thought this thread implied that changed.

This has been more about clarifying how we do Loot in a Raid setting. The idea is to let people know that we're offically using the Loot Master roll for BHA Raid runs. The underlying premise has not changed (play nice & be excellent to each other). We're just looking to head off things that we've identified as issues before they become problems.

Two of the things I love about GWJ Alliance is that we expect people to be responsible in their actions AND when someone decides to leave or take a break from the guild, Khush & the executives want to know what prompted the decision. That and I'm not spammed with N008, STFU and other trash in my chat screen.

As far as rolling on BoE items for the purpose of DEing them, unless the item itself is an upgrade, roll Greed instead of Need. If you need materials for Enchanting or any other skill, let the guild know (ie start a thread here or tell us in game) and you'll be surprised what type of help you'll get.

Oh f*ck it, just ninja everything.

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I'm kidding.

Seriously, I'm kidding.

No, please don't boot me out of the Kara raids. I'll be good.

No, please don't demote me to Fairy Princess. Anything but that!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

HantaXP wrote:
Farscry wrote:

though not cloth for a paladin, for example, as that's usually silly

Its not silly at all, if it makes you better healer. The versatility of the pally is that they can where every armor type. The only thing with this is that if your rolling on a piece of cloth that one of the actually clothies need. It is much harder for them, so in that case it would be appropriate to pass.

I just mean that, since getting into BC, pally healing itemization is so much better than it used to be that it's almost always better to go with a plate piece than a cloth piece. It'd have to be a big upgrade for me to grab a cloth healing item.

And yeah, if EVER a cloth healing item were up for dibs between a pally and priest who both needed it as a legitimate upgrade, I would argue that the priest should just get it. They still have many more times the opportunity for an upgrade later on than the priest (the priest just has cloth, the pally four grades of quality).

Several of Thurg's pieces of healing gear are actually mail grade, because they were such massive upgrades over my old plate pieces that preceded them. It still provides enough defense to be worthwhile, though a "proper" plate healing item would be preferred.

But yeah, I was just curious, thought there was more to this than I read and just wanted to check. I've never once had an issue with how loot was handled in a GWJ group. Honestly, I'd be genuinely surprised if I ever did.

Farscry wrote:

But yeah, I was just curious, thought there was more to this than I read and just wanted to check. I've never once had an issue with how loot was handled in a GWJ group. Honestly, I'd be genuinely surprised if I ever did.

We did this because there have been issues with items that could have gone to several classes. We all play well together and we are growing. I have chosen to do this to prevent issues in the future. I really prefer GWJ to be a no drama zone

The changes as Redjen has said have to do with the Raiding groups, not really the 5 man.

Blackadar wrote:

No, please don't demote me to Fairy Princess. Anything but that!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Now where is that demote button

RedJen wrote:

As far as rolling on BoE items for the purpose of DEing them, unless the item itself is an upgrade, roll Greed instead of Need. If you need materials for Enchanting or any other skill, let the guild know (ie start a thread here or tell us in game) and you'll be surprised what type of help you'll get.

I was assuming need would not be rolled. I wasn't sure if taking those two points together meant wanting to DE the item to work on enchant skill was somehow not a kosher reason to greed and thought I'd ask before I ran the risk of upsetting anyone.

You can Greed all BoE items, period.

Also, as an enchanter, let people know that you can DE unwanted BoPs; in PUGs you roll for the shard, in GWJ runs the group either rolls, sends it to Troll, or leaves it with the enchanter so he or she can use it to enchant something.

Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.

- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.

Xbox Live: Fedaykin98

This probably seems obvious, but I thought I should ask...

What determines the Master Looter? The tank/leader? I've never used it.

The group leader can set the loot rules to any number of options, like Master Looter or Group Loot. The Need Before Greed setting is broken, imho.

In 5-mans the right setting is Group Loot with an Uncommon threshold (greens and up are rolled on). In raids we use Master Looter with a threshold of Rare - the RL will handle blues or better, greens are randomly handed out by the game.

I have never used ML either, btw.

Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.

- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.

Xbox Live: Fedaykin98

The Raid Leader is usually the Loot Master.

I've also seen a raid leader that is marking targets, tanking, generally running the flow of activities, and an off-Master Looter to deal with the flood of tells and such dealing with looting. That was more for 40 man content when you could have half the raid rolling on 3 items.

Okay, I just thought of a new example here and thought we might want to address it. Let's say person X is a hybrid (healer/tank/dps/caster) and the person decides to spec as a healer for the raid, but is really a caster 95% of the time, but they are speccing that way to help the raid. Of course we don't ask them to do this, but they did it anyways. 3 loots drop that night that are in that "offspec area":

1. Healer drop, upgrade for them
2. Caster drop, upgrade for them
3. Tank drop, upgrade for them

Of course this is hypothetically, but let's assume it happens. In my opinion, the person should state which of the three they want to treat as their primary spec, regardless of their spec for the raid night. The other two would be both regarded as "offspec drops" and would not be considered priority if they happen to be drops for another person there as well. Ergo, someone looking to be an Elemental Shaman would be rolling Need on drops associated to that spec, versus Resto shammy and the different drops associated to that. Can I get a ruling boss?

Seriously, Krindle, do you stay awake at night thinking this stuff up? Get some help brother (or, at least a bigger bottle of rye).

Troll wrote:

Seriously, Krindle, do you stay awake at night thinking this stuff up? Get some help brother (or, at least a bigger bottle of rye). :P

Thought about it just this morning (pre-coffee). But I think of people like Hanta or Vilius who like to switch up their specs now and then, and was curious what the ruling would be to keep it fair

I think the fairest way to is to look at their usual spec as primary IF there is another who "needs" the item that is not the usual spec. If noone else "needs" the item, then they are able to take it as an upgrade for the "offspec" set. I hope this makes sense. I have reread it several times. I understand it, but do y'all?

Kiri wrote:

I think the fairest way to is to look at their usual spec as primary IF there is another who "needs" the item that is not the usual spec. If noone else "needs" the item, then they are able to take it as an upgrade for the "offspec" set. I hope this makes sense. I have reread it several times. I understand it, but do y'all?

Yeah...life is simpler if you're not hybrid. Right?

Troll wrote:
Kiri wrote:

I think the fairest way to is to look at their usual spec as primary IF there is another who "needs" the item that is not the usual spec. If noone else "needs" the item, then they are able to take it as an upgrade for the "offspec" set. I hope this makes sense. I have reread it several times. I understand it, but do y'all?

Yeah...life is simpler if you're not hybrid. Right? :wink:

Too bad all tanks and healers are hybrids then

This is a weird issue, because if, say, you just let someone declare their primary role to be X regardless of what they usually play or are playing in Kara, then a healing priest (for example) could declare himself to be DPS and thus have equivalent priority for spell dmg cloth with Spriests, mages, and warlocks; at the same time getting virtually any healing cloth that drops because chances are they are the only healer in the group who wants it.

You also get into the issue of someone getting into the raid as a DPS or Healer saying that they want to change to tank and roll on tanking gear with equal priority to someone who is actually tanking and geared for it.

Happily, these things will almost certainly never occur in GWJ.

I think Kiri is on the right track with going by the person's usual role. I would suggest four tiers of priority:

1) Primary role - I want the item for what I do most of the time in Kara.

2) Backup role - I want the item for a role I play some of the time in Kara. I heal some of the time, but I usually DPS; if no full-time healers want that +healing necklace, I'll use it on some raids.

3) Off-spec role - I want this because sometimes I would use it, but not in Kara, at least, not now. I'm thinking of switching specs, or I could use it for PvP, occasionally I get asked to heal a 5-man, etc.

4) What do you care what I want it for? No one else can use it; walking around Ironforge as a Hunter with Romeo's sword strapped to my back makes the hawt Nelf chicks swoon! You're just gonna shard it anyway, so give me that thing and I'll BUY you a shard, alright?

The idea here is to get the most benefit to the raid. Let me know what y'all think.

Would be a good idea. I plan to have Logan sit in for me when I am on my honeymoon.

- Legion, taking "keeping it in the family" to a whole new level.

Xbox Live: Fedaykin98

I think you guys are disecting this too much Let's all take a step back and enjoy playing

<---Accounting, my job is disecting things down to debits and credits for a living, and accruing to a zero dollar balance

I'm guessing we'll just treat this as a "when it happens, we'll see" scenerio, but I'm thinking as the rules dictate, if the person is typically specced for a role, and is looking to change rolls in the future, they'll have to build that set off of "greeds", especially while others in that same role still need it.

Understood Krin. We usually can agree in the raid without having it detailed out to last teeny tiny bit. I am hoping we can all play as the mature adults we are and continue in this fashion. If not, momma is gonna be kicking some hineys! Also, please refer to the previous statement of the Loot Master has final say and at the moment, the raid leader is/chooses the Loot Master. Should we find this a problem, we will address that as well.

Hear hear Boss.