"A cost analysis of Vista content protection"

Vista's not stopping pirates, DRM cannot possibly NOT be responsible for at least a significant part of the increased memory requirements and slowdown. It is largely useless. It is software and hardware overhead that's just there, and sure, it's not "active" when you don't play HD content, but it's still there, and the rest of the code, encrypted data pathways and all, has to twist itself around to play good with it. Finally, it is likely to annoy legitimate users of purchased content more than anyone else. The evidence toward that is anecdotal but I am sure we'll get more as more people get HD cameras and purchase HD discs.

So far, I believe that Vista is Safedisc

I'm not gonna argue against or in favor of this (factual analysis of this stuff is over my head), but here's a good article from Ed Bott that discusses Vista's "issues" with HD content. Until he moved to Microsoft Press for his Windows books, Bott wrote the SE Using Windows series for the publisher for which I work. He's as knowledgeable an expert on Windows as you're likely to find.
---Todd

Interesting article ubrakto, thanks for the link.

ubrakto wrote:

I'm not gonna argue against or in favor of this (factual analysis of this stuff is over my head), but here's a good article from Ed Bott that discusses Vista's "issues" with HD content. Until he moved to Microsoft Press for his Windows books, Bott wrote the SE Using Windows series for the publisher for which I work. He's as knowledgeable an expert on Windows as you're likely to find.
---Todd

Thanks to the internet though and our wonderful media.. people actually HAD to waste time and effort debunking this clown.. worse is the fact is that we have people on our forum that parrot this guy Gutmann like the gospel..to me thats the saddest part of all this.

I'll bask in my glory that all the while I called it for what it was oh so long ago..

FUD.

plain and simple.

Next.

oh thegreenbutton.com ftw.. awesome forums for anyone serious about HD and Vista Media Center/360 stuff.

Right, a guy makes a blog post using evidence no more concrete than he claims Guttman's to be and that automatically proves us all wrong. I'm not saying he's wrong but I don't see why he so conclusively proves Guttman wrong. Leo Laporte and Steve Gibson thought Guttman's claims had some merit (they did a SecurityNow! episode on them) and their track records are unquestionable. They don't panic monger.

Due respect but it would be a lot easier to discuss this issue if you if you weren't smug and snarky without reason to be. If you want to disagree and debate I'm cool with that but let's leave the schoolyard "neener neener" out shall we?

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

Right, a guy makes a blog post using evidence no more concrete than he claims Guttman's to be and that automatically proves us all wrong. I'm not saying he's wrong but I don't see why he so conclusively proves Guttman wrong. Leo Laporte and Steve Gibson thought Guttman's claims had some merit (they did a SecurityNow! episode on them) and their track records are unquestionable. They don't panic monger.

Due respect but it would be a lot easier to discuss this issue if you if you weren't smug and snarky without reason to be. If you want to disagree and debate I'm cool with that but let's leave the schoolyard "neener neener" out shall we?

Seemed a great deal more evidence than your precious Gutmann but whatever.

As for the snark, such a "topic" deserves it. I know several people have axes to grind with Microsoft but clinging to this guys "facts" is embarrasing.

Vista has enough real issues.

Edit..

I tend to look at things on how I would be received if I did that level of work. If Vista was a startup or new technology and my report(s)/presentation were like Gutmann's to my company I'd be fired.. probably on the spot. And rightfully so. Actually I'd be stopped halfway.. sent home sick.. then fired.

My points of view on this have nothing to do with grinding axes with Microsoft. If this was a Linux distro or Apple doing this, I'd be just as up in arms about it (and Apple is doing it in some forms already.) I have what I believe to be legitimate beefs with Microsoft on a number of issues as do many others. They are in many ways not a consumer-friendly company. They do a lot of great things and I won't deny that but their DRM implementation is not to the benefit of those who pay for their products. I actually like Vista for the most part but like many others, believe its performance and eventually reliability will be severely hindered by the overhead caused by things like AACS. I don't even have a problem with DRM as a whole (one of the reasons I happily use Steam, iTunes, PSN and Virtual Console is because they does it right) but this isn't right.

I don't believe this guy's blog post was any more well-written that Guttman's piece as it was mostly anecdotal evidence and he failed to do many of the things he called Guttman out on. Both sides of the issue probably have valid points and I won't deny that Guttman made some kind-of-out-there claims in his original report that have been proven wrong (such as how AACS would mean no more unified video drivers.) If it weren't for Steve Gibson (a man who knows more about security and the things that affect it than anyone here) considering parts of it valid, I probably wouldn't have paid much attention.

If either of these people were to make a presentation in the ways they did, they wouldn't be taken seriously as they're both too inflammatory and rely on unproven assumptions. I believes some of what Guttman said because I have seen the problems on some computers with my own eyes and while I know things will probably smooth out over time, I'm the one who has to explain to customers why the brand new PC doesn't play HD-DVD movies properly and there's no way I can explain to them how this DRM helps them. That is anti-consumer in my opinion. Regardless, we will never agree on this issue and that's fine. I just wanted to debate it and not mudsling is all.

I just got to read ubrakto's link, very nice. That's the kind of investigation I like.

I don't believe this guy's blog post was any more well-written that Guttman's piece as it was mostly anecdotal evidence and he failed to do many of the things he called Guttman out on. Both sides of the issue probably have valid points and I won't deny that Guttman made some kind-of-out-there claims in his original report that have been proven wrong (such as how AACS would mean no more unified video drivers.) If it weren't for Steve Gibson (a man who knows more about security and the things that affect it than anyone here) considering parts of it valid, I probably wouldn't have paid much attention.

In my world (and most) if you come out attacking a product.. you better back it up with real facts.. the ball is in Gutmann's court.. not the other way around.

edit

I'm the one who has to explain to customers why the brand new PC doesn't play HD-DVD movies properly and there's no way I can explain to them how this DRM helps them. That is anti-consumer in my opinion. Regardless, we will never agree on this issue and that's fine. I just wanted to debate it and not mudsling is all.

I understand this.. but how is this Microsoft's issue?.. your beef is more with the manufacture of that PC brand.. its their responsibility to ensure their PC's have proper HDCP complaint videocards and come with an HDCP enabled Monitor...and then have the proper drivers and software.. this is and never was a Microsoft issue.. like I said all along AACS is beyond MS control.

Apple as a manufacture and provider of their own OS will no doubt get this done a whole lot smoother.. but all the HDCP functionality and DRM will be there just like it is in Vista.

TheGameguru wrote:

In my world (and most) if you come out attacking a product.. you better back it up with real facts.. the ball is in Gutmann's court.. not the other way around.

When making an argument, the ball is in the court of whoever is making it. Guttman has stuff to back up but that doesn't let this guy off the hook either. If you're going to say that someone else's report is wrong, you need to prove your point as much as the other guy has to prove his. The ZDnet post cited such things as a lack of a demo of the problem while providing none of his own. In fact, the vast majority of his "evidence" was anecdotal, saying basically "well I never had the problem so clearly you're a liar." He did prove some of Guttman's claims wrong (like the hidden process that isn't really hidden) and I'll give full credit there. I didn't take Guttman's report as face value, I waited to hear what others had to say about it and several people with strong credability agreed with a lot of it. The guy says some things that are wrong and I've never denied that. Nor will I deny that his style of presentation is imflammatory and makes him seem a little more anti-Microsoft that I think he intends. But he isn't all wrong is my point and my own experience supports that.

TheGameguru wrote:

I understand this.. but how is this Microsoft's issue?.. your beef is more with the manufacture of that PC brand.. its their responsibility to ensure their PC's have proper HDCP complaint videocards and come with an HDCP enabled Monitor...and then have the proper drivers and software.. this is and never was a Microsoft issue.. like I said all along AACS is beyond MS control.

It's Microsoft's problem because it's their OS and no one put a gun to their head and told them to put in AACS when it has obvious problems. The PC model I've seen this problem on had everything in line: HDCP video card, monitor, drivers and a supported AACS video player. It was constantly tripping the "tilt bits" and causing the video subsystem to continually reset. Regardless of whether or not it was a driver glitch or something else, the unnecessary DRM layer being there is the reason that even the tiniest glitch can cause the whole process to break down. AACS is only designed to protect Hollywood. It punishes consumers by making simple things like movie playback a pain and the consumers are the ones who are buying the content and the equipment. How this can be seen as anything but anti-consumer is beyond me. And Microsoft supports it. So does Apple. And I think they're both wrong and both acting against the interests of the people who pay them. I'm paying for the stuff so why should I be treated like I'm going to steal it?

Parallax Abstraction wrote:

When making an argument, the ball is in the court of whoever is making it.

Indeed. "No" is a lousy counterargument.

The ZDnet post cited such things as a lack of a demo of the problem while providing none of his own. In fact, the vast majority of his "evidence" was anecdotal, saying basically "well I never had the problem so clearly you're a liar."

I dunno.. seems a great deal better to actually show the product working when the other party makes continuous vague claims that it isn't working. Especially when clearly over at thegreenbutton forums there isnt enough evidence to support Guttman's claims.

I dunno.. this seems like a big waste of time.. clearly yourself, Malor and some others are firmly convinced in this guys findings.. and beliefs and will not listen to any other opinions that run counter to one persons claims.

Its a shame because Leo Laporte and Steve Gibson essentially just parroted Guttman's "theories" without providing a single shred of testing or proof also. I'm curious to why they didnt think it was neccessary to go out and really investigate these claims even in the slightest. hmm...

Their followup was more theorizing.. and consistent use of the word "Spin" to counter Microsoft explanations. That was really useful. O_o

But I guess thats what passes for quality internet reporting these days. whoopie!!

TheGameguru wrote:

I dunno.. this seems like a big waste of time.. clearly yourself, Malor and some others are firmly convinced in this guys findings.. and beliefs and will not listen to any other opinions that run counter to one persons claims.

OK well obviously you are ignoring several parts of my previous posts in which I agreed that Guttman's findings are not perfect and he is outright wrong on several things. Not completely agreeing with the guy from ZDnet (who is also one person by the way) doesn't mean I automatically back Guttman's findings as gospel. You claim I just won't listen to a contradictory opinion but you seem intent on ignoring anything I say that isn't in disagreement with the ZDnet guy. But since you are convinced that I'm just irrationally hating Microsoft on spec I guess there's no seeing this. At any rate, we've made our points and I'm going to bow out now. When you're ready to consider everything I say and not just the points that are easy to jab at, I'll be around.