"A Game of Thrones" Spoiler-Ridden Catch-All of Doom - books and HBO show

Also note that a big part of the Kingsguard faced Ned when he arrived at the Tower - although no known member of the royal family was supposed to be there at the time...

I'm sorry to say that I hadn't thought of that and it's reasonable enough to be true. I'm a bit saddened to have it predicted though - I may go on a blackout for a while.

Brennil wrote:

Actually Ned never says straight out to anyone that Jon is his son. His blood, his responsibility, but not his son. And there are many clues and hints that he has been keeping secrets for 14 years - Jon's lifetime. As for Jon looking like Ned - so does Arya, and several times it's stated that Arya looks like Lyanna.

Rhaegar could not have married Lyanna, as he was married to Elia Martell at the time. Jon's a bastard, regardless of who's bastard he is. I do believe that they loved one another, and she ran off willingly with him to the Tower of Joy.

This is a pretty good summation of all the (canon supported) theories about Jon's parentage.

Okies, reading up on it I now have to agree that the Rhaegar-Lyanna pairing makes sense, and since it seems inevitable that Jon and Daenery will hook up, this will make the whole sleeping with siblings thing more palatable for mass consumption.

I don't know how you guys might feel about this but did you know the White Wolf, the same publishing company we talked about in the other thread with CCP (Eve Online), did a Table Top RPG of GRRM's "A Game of Thrones". Link

Oh and there is a collectible card game and a board game also based upon the books. How did this guy's story get so commercialized and yet I have never heard of this series until just recently from this thread??

kilroy0097 wrote:

I don't know how you guys might feel about this but did you know the White Wolf, the same publishing company we talked about in the other thread with CCP (Eve Online), did a Table Top RPG of GRRM's "A Game of Thrones". Link

Oh and there is a collectible card game and a board game also based upon the books. How did this guy's story get so commercialized and yet I have never heard of this series until just recently from this thread??

I'd imagine mainly because it's flown under the radar when compared to longer stories, such as Wheel of Time or Sword of Truth. I hadn't heard of it until the second or third book had been released.

NemesisZero wrote:

Also note that a big part of the Kingsguard faced Ned when he arrived at the Tower - although no known member of the royal family was supposed to be there at the time...

This sealed the deal for me. Because -and I'm going from memory so be kind- when Ned challenges the Sword of the Morning and asks why he isn't protecting his king. Arthur Dayne replies that he is protecting his king.

AnimeJ wrote:
kilroy0097 wrote:

I don't know how you guys might feel about this but did you know the White Wolf, the same publishing company we talked about in the other thread with CCP (Eve Online), did a Table Top RPG of GRRM's "A Game of Thrones". Link

Oh and there is a collectible card game and a board game also based upon the books. How did this guy's story get so commercialized and yet I have never heard of this series until just recently from this thread??

I'd imagine mainly because it's flown under the radar when compared to longer stories, such as Wheel of Time or Sword of Truth. I hadn't heard of it until the second or third book had been released.

Well I read the 33 pages available on Amazon's little Look inside feature. So far I liked it. I will probably go out and get it just to see how I like the first book. If I do then I will continue to get more of them. Otherwise I'm only out $7 on one.

Well I read the 33 pages available on Amazon's little Look inside feature. So far I liked it. I will probably go out and get it just to see how I like the first book. If I do then I will continue to get more of them. Otherwise I'm only out $7 on one.

To that I say:

ColdForged wrote:

Seriously, drop whatever other tripe you may currently be reading and go hither to yon bookstore and buy them.

The man speaks the truth. There's no need to hedge your bets with this one. Just go read it.

buzzvang wrote:
Well I read the 33 pages available on Amazon's little Look inside feature. So far I liked it. I will probably go out and get it just to see how I like the first book. If I do then I will continue to get more of them. Otherwise I'm only out $7 on one.

To that I say:

ColdForged wrote:

Seriously, drop whatever other tripe you may currently be reading and go hither to yon bookstore and buy them.

The man speaks the truth. There's no need to hedge your bets with this one. Just go read it.

Beat me to the punch. It's easily some of the best fantasy I've ever read, and that's a lot. Renshai, Sword of Truth, and some others that escape my memory.

Wow, interesting theories. I had not yet considered that Jon might not be Ned's son at all. All this talk has me feeling like I missed a lot, probably because I was loving the books and reading at a breakneck pace.

Not only are these books ridiculously awesome, but the two novellas set in the same world are also fantastic. Fans who are hungry for more should read those ASAP.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Wow, interesting theories. I had not yet considered that Jon might not be Ned's son at all. All this talk has me feeling like I missed a lot, probably because I was loving the books and reading at a breakneck pace.

I read them fairly thrououghly, but I never picked up that vibe. I suppose it could be interesting if it was, but Jon Snow has been put forth too many times as Ned's bastard; it states that fairly specifically in a few places.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Not only are these books ridiculously awesome, but the two novellas set in the same world are also fantastic. Fans who are hungry for more should read those ASAP.

I have not heard of these, and they are relevant to my interests. Do you have more information regarding them?

AnimeJ - I don't understand your interpretation. The narrator never says that Jon is Ned's son, right? Who cares what anyone in the story says - they could be lying. I consider the question to be wide open (now - I hadn't thought of it before).

Martin has written two other Ice and Fire stories, for these novella complilations called Legends. I believe they are edited by Robert Silverburg. I ordered them off Amazon. If you get them, make sure you get the ones that have the stories you want to read in them - there are several different volumes.

The first of the stories is called "The Hedge Knight", which has been turned into a graphic novel as well. It is set about 100 years before the novels. If anyone thirsts for more Ice and Fire, these stories will take the edge off for a time.

Fed is right, it's been demonstrated numerous times that what characters in the novels believe is not always true. For instance, it's well known that all of the true-born Stark children are dead, except for Sansa (and the deception of Arya, in which the Lannisters believe she is dead yet want others to believe she is alive). Except, of course, that Robb is the only one who has died.

As for Jon's true heritage... I'm sorry to say that I couldn't keep history straight enough in my mind to even form an opinion on this. I remember a character revealing that he (she?) and Jon had the same mother. Other than that, there's simply too much for me to remember! Too many families, too many lords and ladies. My poor memory isn't up to the task.

BTW obviously there are spoilers in this thread now that I am actually going to read the series or at least the first book so I will be absent from this thread for a while at least. I wanna be surprised.

Thanks for the head's up Fed. I didn't know there were other stories to read in the Westeros World. I dug around for a little while and found that I could get the full Legends collection for the same price or less than buying the segmented version of each Legends anthology.
That meant buying hardcover, used, but I'm interested enough in reading the other authors that I think I'll enjoy having the full collection.

For anyone else interested, here are the links I used:
Legends 1
Legends 2

Legends 1 has The Hedge Knight novella and Legends 2 has The Sworn Sword novella. There is another book set in the same world called The Ice Dragon but it appears to be a children's book. If I only had a niece or nephew of the appropriate age...

(Please note the links are for the anthologies that contain the George RR Martin stories, among others. If you want the graphic novel version of just The Hedge Knight, that's a different search, and a graphic novel of The Sworn Sword is planned for late this year.)

kilroy0097 wrote:

BTW obviously there are spoilers in this thread now that I am actually going to read the series or at least the first book so I will be absent from this thread for a while at least. I wanna be surprised.

Yeah, the title should probably be changed from "light spoilers" to OMFG SPOILERZ at this point.

buzzvang wrote:
kilroy0097 wrote:

BTW obviously there are spoilers in this thread now that I am actually going to read the series or at least the first book so I will be absent from this thread for a while at least. I wanna be surprised.

Yeah, the title should probably be changed from "light spoilers" to OMFG SPOILERZ at this point.

I just want all you people to thank me for calling for the original spoiler notice way back when. Remember, monetary compensation is the sincerest form of gratitude.

And I agree - the thread now has massive, soul-eviscerating spoilers. I quake to read them even though I already know them, out of a sympathetic pain for the unwarned.

The Ice Dragon is less set in the same world as it is a fairy tale that might be told to children in that world. It's quite short, and a nifty read.

Additionally, "The Hedge Knight" was adapted into an excellent graphic novel, and "The Sworn Sword" is in the process of being adapted. (EDIT: I'm a dirty skimmer and did not see that these were mentioned already.)

Moo - you are a filthy, filthy skimmer, my friend! See Scaphism's post, and mine before that.

(I'll still ride in your chopper anytime you need a gunner, tho)

AnimeJ wrote:
Fedaykin98 wrote:

Wow, interesting theories. I had not yet considered that Jon might not be Ned's son at all. All this talk has me feeling like I missed a lot, probably because I was loving the books and reading at a breakneck pace.

I read them fairly thrououghly, but I never picked up that vibe. I suppose it could be interesting if it was, but Jon Snow has been put forth too many times as Ned's bastard; it states that fairly specifically in a few places.

Anime,
I'd like to see those places. I can't think of a single instance where Ned actually refers to him as "my son" or ever says "he's my son." And since the entire character of Ned is based on the chivalric ideal of Honor, he's the only character in the book that speaks the truth.

I've been meaning to reread these again this summer, so I think I might just get to it now.

It should be noted that, with this latest thread resurrection, I am starting afresh on the first one yet again. Such a wonderful ride in store!

ColdForged wrote:

It should be noted that, with this latest thread resurrection, I am starting afresh on the first one yet again. Such a wonderful ride in store!

I'm jealous, but not as jealous as I'd be of someone reading them for the first time.
My backlogX2 (games and books) would rise up and mutiny if I decided to start a 4000+ page re-read of the series within the same year, so I don't think I'll be joining.

Scaphism wrote:

I'm jealous, but not as jealous as I'd be of someone reading them for the first time.

Well, thanks to this thread, I am "that someone." I have been on such a roller coaster ride while reading this series that I've lost count of how many times I've said out loud "HOLY CRAP!"

I am curious about one thing. How the hell have you folks managed the wait in between books? I'm just starting A Feast for Crows and I dont know how I'm going to handle waiting for the next book to come out. I suppose being able to read the first three without a wait inbetween probably spoiled me.

I read all four with no pause, just like I read all 6 Harry Potter books, and all of Steven Brust's Dragaera books. Now I'm having to find other things to fill the awful waits...

Fedaykin98 wrote:

I read all four with no pause, just like I read all 6 Harry Potter books, and all of Steven Brust's Dragaera books. Now I'm having to find other things to fill the awful waits...

I usually come into series about halfway in, and voraciously consume the existing books before finding myself stuck with the long, long wait for the following ones. I came into Harry Potter just after the fourth book surfaced, read all four, and endured the agonizing waits for 5 and 6 and, finally, the 7th this year. I picked up "Song of Ice and Fire" when only the first three books were around, about two years before A Feast for Crows arrived. That wait sucked, but the current wait has been even worse!

I don't know why I torture myself so.

VicD714 wrote:

I am curious about one thing. How the hell have you folks managed the wait in between books? I'm just starting A Feast for Crows and I dont know how I'm going to handle waiting for the next book to come out. I suppose being able to read the first three without a wait inbetween probably spoiled me. :grin:

I know the feeling. I read the first 4 without needing to wait. And now... there's no telling when the next book will come out.

You guys are lucky.

I picked up the first one on impulse at a book signing sometime in 98, and have continually had to wait 2+ years between each book.

I've reread all four books twice now, and will be reading them a third time after I finish Legends II.

The trials and tribulations of the George R R Martin fan

Fedeykin wrote:

AnimeJ - I don't understand your interpretation. The narrator never says that Jon is Ned's son, right? Who cares what anyone in the story says - they could be lying. I consider the question to be wide open (now - I hadn't thought of it before).

Ned says that Jon is "his bastard". I haven't read it in a while, but that was a point that was made very clear every time Lady Catelyn asked him to send him off, or get rid of him, etc, etc. Going by that, I'm not seeing the Rhaegar/Lyanna connection at all.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Fed is right, it's been demonstrated numerous times that what characters in the novels believe is not always true. For instance, it's well known that all of the true-born Stark children are dead, except for Sansa (and the deception of Arya, in which the Lannisters believe she is dead yet want others to believe she is alive). Except, of course, that Robb is the only one who has died.

As for Jon's true heritage... I'm sorry to say that I couldn't keep history straight enough in my mind to even form an opinion on this. I remember a character revealing that he (she?) and Jon had the same mother. Other than that, there's simply too much for me to remember! Too many families, too many lords and ladies. My poor memory isn't up to the task.

I'm well aware of that, but there's a far cry from what people beleive and has become 'well known' as you put it, and what one person has put forth as fact, in light of it being something that involved him directly. I can see where doubt would arise, given Ned's moral character, and I've no doubt that Ned would lie if it was to defend something of the utmost import. I just don't see anything else that would lend credence to this.

Lester_King wrote:
AnimeJ wrote:
Fedaykin98 wrote:

Wow, interesting theories. I had not yet considered that Jon might not be Ned's son at all. All this talk has me feeling like I missed a lot, probably because I was loving the books and reading at a breakneck pace.

I read them fairly thrououghly, but I never picked up that vibe. I suppose it could be interesting if it was, but Jon Snow has been put forth too many times as Ned's bastard; it states that fairly specifically in a few places.

Anime,
I'd like to see those places. I can't think of a single instance where Ned actually refers to him as "my son" or ever says "he's my son." And since the entire character of Ned is based on the chivalric ideal of Honor, he's the only character in the book that speaks the truth.

I've been meaning to reread these again this summer, so I think I might just get to it now.

He doesn't call him 'his son', per se. However there are several points where he calls him 'his bastard'. Surely you know the true meaning of being a bastard? I'm intimately familiar with the term myself, seeing as the literal meaning applies to me.

We're just going to have to disagree here, J. FYI, I never assume that anything a character in a book says is definitely true. Heck, even narrators can lie in some genres. I'm open to the idea that Jon might or might not be Ned's son.

And Fars, baby - what about changing the thread title to "Life-Ending Spoilers Within"?

Fedaykin98 wrote:

We're just going to have to disagree here, J. FYI, I never assume that anything a character in a book says is definitely true. Heck, even narrators can lie in some genres. I'm open to the idea that Jon might or might not be Ned's son.

And Fars, baby - what about changing the thread title to "Life-Ending Spoilers Within"? :wink:

I suppose it's not coming out clearly as I'd like, but the point I'm attempting and failing to make is that I don't see evidence to that end. Given the amount of backstabbing and double crossing, intrigue and guile, smoke and mirrors that's taken place up to this point, it's perfectly plausible that Jon could be Ned's bastard in that Ned has taken him as his own, not literally his own. Just because Ned never liked playing the Game of Thrones doesn't mean that he couldn't be completely awesome at it.

Concur on thread title change though