5,000 years of religion in 90 seconds

Very, very cool. It makes you wonder what would have happened if the Ottomans had been first to North America.

You would think that New York would be colored Jewish as well as Hollywood...

NYC is still majority Christian, even though there is a large Jewish population.

I think there are only 15 million Jews in the world right now. It's still an exclusive religion.

DrunkenSleipnir wrote:

Very, very cool. It makes you wonder what would have happened if the Ottomans had been first to North America.

Were they a naval society? The Ottoman Empire was still very primative when it fell apart around World War I.

souldaddy wrote:

I think there are only 15 million Jews in the world right now. It's still an exclusive religion.

DrunkenSleipnir wrote:

Very, very cool. It makes you wonder what would have happened if the Ottomans had been first to North America.

Were they a naval society? The Ottoman Empire was still very primative when it fell apart around World War I.

Of course they were. You don't get to take over the coasts of Africa and Spain on foot. Plus, IIRC, they had the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles straits, which connected the Black Sea to the Mediterrannean and thus the rest of the world (Russia had been struggling to take those for hundreds of years).

However, it's true that in 1919, the Ottoman Empire was technologically behind the rest of Europe But keep in mind that at one time - and for a long time, at that - they were the technological hub of the world.

KaterinLHC wrote:
souldaddy wrote:

I think there are only 15 million Jews in the world right now. It's still an exclusive religion.

DrunkenSleipnir wrote:

Very, very cool. It makes you wonder what would have happened if the Ottomans had been first to North America.

Were they a naval society? The Ottoman Empire was still very primative when it fell apart around World War I.

Of course they were. You don't get to take over the coasts of Africa and Spain on foot. Plus, IIRC, they had the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles straits, which connected the Black Sea to the Mediterrannean and thus the rest of the world (Russia had been struggling to take those for hundreds of years).

However, it's true that in 1919, the Ottoman Empire was technologically behind the rest of Europe But keep in mind that at one time - and for a long time, at that - they were the technological hub of the world.

Yeah, I was about to say: I mean, we're talking about the people who were on top of the world technologically for a thousand years. So when you say "still" it's not really representative. They started to downfall I believe in the 1800s, and the job was mostly finished during the two Balkan Wars around the turn of last century.

souldaddy wrote:

I think there are only 15 million Jews in the world right now. It's still an exclusive religion.

You're welcome to join.

WOW - I didn't realize how rapidly Christianity spread in the last couple hundred years. I thought it was more gradual since the death of Jesus.

DrunkenSleipnir wrote:
KaterinLHC wrote:
souldaddy wrote:

I think there are only 15 million Jews in the world right now. It's still an exclusive religion.

DrunkenSleipnir wrote:

Very, very cool. It makes you wonder what would have happened if the Ottomans had been first to North America.

Were they a naval society? The Ottoman Empire was still very primative when it fell apart around World War I.

Of course they were. You don't get to take over the coasts of Africa and Spain on foot. Plus, IIRC, they had the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles straits, which connected the Black Sea to the Mediterrannean and thus the rest of the world (Russia had been struggling to take those for hundreds of years).

However, it's true that in 1919, the Ottoman Empire was technologically behind the rest of Europe But keep in mind that at one time - and for a long time, at that - they were the technological hub of the world.

Yeah, I was about to say: I mean, we're talking about the people who were on top of the world technologically for a thousand years. So when you say "still" it's not really representative. They started to downfall I believe in the 1800s, and the job was mostly finished during the two Balkan Wars around the turn of last century.

I didn't realize that the Ottomans took over Spain.

That's an interesting "what if", but really, would they have ever even felt the need to set out west over the sea, since they controlled the trade routes to the east? Wasn't Spain and Portugal just looking to circumvent the Ottomans to get to the Indes?

buzzvang wrote:

I didn't realize that the Ottomans took over Spain.

That's an interesting "what if", but really, would they have ever even felt the need to set out west over the sea, since they controlled the trade routes to the east? Wasn't Spain and Portugal just looking to circumvent the Ottomans to get to the Indes?

That's an excellent point. After the Mongols conquered just about everything from the Pacific to the Sahara the trade routes across Asia and the Middle East were extremely efficient. Why would the Ottomans want to expand across the Atlantic, when they already had access to all the goods they needed? It's not like they depended on the cod trade like the Atlantic seafaring nations.

And yes, the Ottoman Empire was itself part of the reason Europe ended up moving West in the first place - couldn't get through them to the East, so they tried to go around them. Yay for circumnavigation!

buzzvang wrote:

I didn't realize that the Ottomans took over Spain.

That's an interesting "what if", but really, would they have ever even felt the need to set out west over the sea, since they controlled the trade routes to the east? Wasn't Spain and Portugal just looking to circumvent the Ottomans to get to the Indes?

Yes, indeed, Spain was under Muslim domination for hundreds of years. That's what the whole Ferdinand/Isabella Reconquista was all about in the 1490's: kicking the Moors out of Spain for good. I'm a little rusty on my history of this, but IIRC, the Abassids were the first to take over over Southern Spain in the 900s (?), and that possession rolled over to the Turks when they took over. In fact, during the Middle Ages, southern Spain was known as a gathering ground of education, art, religion, and technology. However, the Ottomans started losing power in that region in the 1400's, and by the time the Reconquista rolled around, they were all but ejected from the island by the northern kingdoms.

The key point here is that the Ottomans controlled the coasts, so the 'native' Spaniards (read, northern Spainards landlocked by mountains) couldn't get out. That's why they wanted to kick the Turks out so bad. That, and the whole Christianity thing.

Nice find souldaddy, great thread people.

It's pretty fun to see this kind of stuff back in games. I am playing Medieval 2 at the moment and religion plays a pretty big role. Especially the struggles about it.

This also plays out in EU2 and, shortly, EU3.

KaterinLHC wrote:
buzzvang wrote:

I didn't realize that the Ottomans took over Spain.

That's an interesting "what if", but really, would they have ever even felt the need to set out west over the sea, since they controlled the trade routes to the east? Wasn't Spain and Portugal just looking to circumvent the Ottomans to get to the Indes?

Yes, indeed, Spain was under Muslim domination for hundreds of years. That's what the whole Ferdinand/Isabella Reconquista was all about in the 1490's: kicking the Moors out of Spain for good. I'm a little rusty on my history of this, but IIRC, the Abassids were the first to take over over Southern Spain in the 900s (?), and that possession rolled over to the Turks when they took over. In fact, during the Middle Ages, southern Spain was known as a gathering ground of education, art, religion, and technology. However, the Ottomans started losing power in that region in the 1400's, and by the time the Reconquista rolled around, they were all but ejected from the island by the northern kingdoms.

The key point here is that the Ottomans controlled the coasts, so the 'native' Spaniards (read, northern Spainards landlocked by mountains) couldn't get out. That's why they wanted to kick the Turks out so bad. That, and the whole Christianity thing.

I wonder if the Moors would take issue with being called Turks. Sorry, but at the time of the Reconquista, the Ottoman Turks had only recently conquered Constantinople. I don't think they ever held al-Andalus, themselves.

Wow, that's a statement to Islam that immediately after it's inception it spread so far, so fast. Not sure quite what that statement is, but it's a statement. Also, I find it interesting Hinduism was apparently almost wiped off the map, but made a resurgence in India a few hundred years ago, pushing back the tide Islam in the region. Anybody know what caused that? A bloody conflict like the wars between muslims and christians, or just a demographic change?

Somebody needs to update it with the FSM.

buzzvang wrote:

I wonder if the Moors would take issue with being called Turks. Sorry, but at the time of the Reconquista, the Ottoman Turks had only recently conquered Constantinople. I don't think they ever held al-Andalus, themselves.

Really? Well, I said my history was rusty. I'll have to check it out later.

Wow, that's a statement to Islam that immediately after it's inception it spread so far, so fast. Not sure quite what that statement is, but it's a statement. Also, I find it interesting Hinduism was apparently almost wiped off the map, but made a resurgence in India a few hundred years ago, pushing back the tide Islam in the region. Anybody know what caused that? A bloody conflict like the wars between muslims and christians, or just a demographic change?

I'm not sure what drove Islam across North Africa into Hispania, but if I recall correctly, the Byzantine and Persian Empires were both spent after a long series of wars when Mohammed came out of the desert with the Arab Tribes. They conquered the Persians pretty quickly and wound up at the Walls of Theodosius in Constantinople in a relatively short period of time. I remember reading that at the time, Islam wasn't as... complicated(?) as Orthodox Christianity for many of the people, which actually helped many in the Persian lands and the Levant convert pretty easily.

Really? Well, I said my history was rusty. I'll have to check it out later.

No worries. For whatever reason, the history of the Byzantine Empire has fascinated me for the past year and a half, so much that I think I'd rather visit Turkey than "Europe" in the sense that most Americans mean when they talk about hopping the pond. Anyway, I've been reading up on it somewhat recently.

KaterinLHC wrote:

However, it's true that in 1919, the Ottoman Empire was technologically behind the rest of Europe But keep in mind that at one time - and for a long time, at that - they were the technological hub of the world.

Kinda like the U.S.?

Oh man, did I say that out loud?

On-topic, this is a cool find. Thanks for sharing, Souldaddy!

It implies that the rapid spread of Christianity in the 19th century or a bit earlier was due to the ability of Europeans to export it, rather than to any perceived doctrinal superiority.

There's some truly beautiful Moorish architecture in Spain.

IT'S THE MOOPS!

Robear wrote:

It implies that the rapid spread of Christianity in the 19th century or a bit earlier was due to the ability of Europeans to export it, rather than to any perceived doctrinal superiority.

The missionary flavor of Christianity brought it like wildfire to (central/southern) Africa and South America, where it dominates now. Even initially, look at how the early Christian church spread over souther Europe and the Balkans.

The religions that survive today do so because of their ability to adapt, spread, and stay put.

I like the spotted Christian map after the death of Christ. I guess Jesus told em "go forth like a leopard." I also find it funny that christianity and buddhism are no longer heavily practiced in the land that birthed them.

I know that Muhammad himself spread Islam through conquest. The life of the prophet, which is just as important as the Koran to most muslims, was anything but peaceful.

Funny moment, my (jewish) roommate told me last night that G.W. Bush was attending a jewish ceremony after 9/11, and said "I don't think the muslims understand the miracle of Hannukah."

LobsterMobster wrote:

There's some truly beautiful Moorish architecture in Spain.

The Al'Hambra, whose beauty cannot be expressed in photos:
IMAGE(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Alhambra_Grenade_mlkfj.jpg)

That's fascinating. They leave out the very crucial Zoroastrianism, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

Well it seems to show that the Enlightenment really didn't affect the influence of Christianity, but rather the quality of life of its followers.

souldaddy wrote:
LobsterMobster wrote:

There's some truly beautiful Moorish architecture in Spain.

The Al'Hambra, whose beauty cannot be expressed in photos:
IMAGE(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Alhambra_Grenade_mlkfj.jpg)

Anyone else getting de_dust flashbacks?

rezzy wrote:

Anyone else getting de_dust flashbacks?IMAGE(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/1189/untitled3zg1.jpg)

Fixed.

It was very strange. I had a dream last night that I was basically a Muslim convert going to mosque on Friday as though it were my weekly routine, to pray and hear the Imam speak.

Makes you wonder.

No worries. For whatever reason, the history of the Byzantine Empire has fascinated me for the past year and a half, so much that I think I'd rather visit Turkey than "Europe" in the sense that most Americans mean when they talk about hopping the pond. Anyway, I've been reading up on it somewhat recently.

I highly, highly recommend a visit, especially if you've never been to a Muslim country before and haven't had the experience of being an 'outsider' in a culture. Just hearing the call to prayer blasted from when you wake up until you go to sleep is a powerful experience. Southern Turkey, especially, made me realize how lucky and amazing living in America really is. Watching bent women in burkas use oxen or even pulling plows themselves while seeing old ruined castles peek out from the mountainside transported me back in time about 500 years.

If you bring a wife/girlfriend, make sure she has a thick skin. My wife was often stared at or just ignored whenever she tried to talk to a man, especially in the south. As for architecture, you won't see that much Byzantine stuff left beyond St. Sophia and the underground aqueduct. The rock churches in Cappadocia were supposed to be good, but we didn't have time to go out east.

Oh, and brush up on your haggling. One of the more annoying things about Turkey was that you need to bargain on everything, even meals.