World War Z

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Thought you other zombie aficionados would be interested in this. Max Brooks (the guy who wrote The Zombie Survival Guide) is back again with another zombie novel. World War Z: An Oral History Of The Zombie War is written as a "historical account" as if the author is documenting various stories from personal interviews. He kind of did that in the Survival Guide, but he has supposedly taken it to another level in this book. (Amazon link)

"Dr. Kwang Jingshu, Greater Chongqing, United Federation of China wrote:

I found "˜Patient Zero' behind the locked door of an abandoned apartment across town. . . . His wrists and feet were bound with plastic packing twine. Although he'd rubbed off the skin around his bonds, there was no blood. There was also no blood on his other wounds. . . . He was writhing like an animal; a gag muffled his growls. At first the villagers tried to hold me back. They warned me not to touch him, that he was "˜cursed.' I shrugged them off and reached for my mask and gloves. The boy's skin was . . . cold and gray . . . I could find neither his heartbeat nor his pulse.

Todd Wainio, former U.S. Army infantryman and veteran of the Battle of Yonkers wrote:

'Shock and Awe'? Perfect name. . . . But what if the enemy can't be shocked and awed? Not just won't, but biologically can't! That's what happened that day outside New York City, that's the failure that almost lost us the whole damn war. The fact that we couldn't shock and awe Zack boomeranged right back in our faces and actually allowed Zack to shock and awe us! They're not afraid! No matter what we do, no matter how many we kill, they will never, ever be afraid!

General Travis D'Ambrosia, Supreme Allied Commander, Europe wrote:

Two hundred million zombies. Who can even visualize that type of number, let alone combat it? . . . For the first time in history, we faced an enemy that was actively waging total war. They had no limits of endurance. They would never negotiate, never surrender. They would fight until the very end because, unlike us, every single one of them, every second of every day, was devoted to consuming all life on Earth.

The early buzz on this is extremely good. If fact, so good that Plan B (Brad Pitts movie studio) has already optioned the movie rights and the book doesn't even come out until Sept 12th.

ya know? I fail to see how zombies would present much of a military challenge. They are easily identified, unarmed, incapable of coherent group tactics other than human wave, and don't have the sense to go to ground in the face of artillery fire. I would think that 200 million zombies would be pretty quick work for some fast movers armed with cluster bomblet munitions.

Seems like they'd be the perfect enemy. Just lure them into a crowd and drop napalm (no human rights problems there because they're no longer human).

Problem is, when fighting zombies soldiers have the habit of never looking in the direction of where they're coming. Or carry enough ammunition to shoot them. Or get so suprised that the lose control of their vehicles and plow them into oil tankers, causing a massive explosion. It's tough fighting zombies when your troops suddenly turn all thumbs.

It all depends on where the mess starts, if you ask me. Assume that the first brain-eaters occur in the Pentagon (to name a likely location). If there is sufficient initial disarray - and a nice long incubation period would help, as well - 'Zack' could've spread over half the globe before any kind of countermeasure could be imposed.

Zombies have the element of surprise in zombie movies because they take place in a reality that doesn't have zombie movies. That's why movies always start with news broadcasts about strange reports of cannibalism. The surprise is what lets the numbers swell.

If zombies popped up in this reality, who doesn't know how to recognize one and how to kill it?

They also happen in realities where the laws of physics don't seem to apply.

It would seem to me that something like a massive zombie outbreak would be a far easier thing to deal with than, say, a massive influenza outbreak. After the first 24 hours, it would seem pretty elementary how to deal with one and order would be pretty quickly restored.

The biggest issue (at least I think) would be how the uninfected would deal with the temporary breakdown of social order. Would it result in the lawlessness that was reported in the wake of Katrina? Would rioting and looting be rampant? Would folks use the opportunity of the outbreak to settle old scores or pursue alternate agendas?

The zombies would be an annoyance, but not a real threat.

NemesisZero wrote:

Assume that the first brain-eaters occur in the Pentagon (to name a likely location). If there is sufficient initial disarray . . .

We've had brain dead zombies in the White House and Pentagon before. It's something the system is used to dealing with, so I can't see any disarray happening.

I don't know, in the book Monster Nation, it spreads so quickly because they initially believe it is some type of germ warfare. It WOULD be tough to believe that zombies were real all of a sudden. The mind tries to come up with rational explanations for irrational instances.

Who cares about reality? It's friggen' zombies!

Paleocon wrote:

Would folks use the opportunity of the outbreak to settle old scores or pursue alternate agendas?

So you'll be hiding in a secured bunker for a much different reason, huh?

PurEvil wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

Would folks use the opportunity of the outbreak to settle old scores or pursue alternate agendas?

So you'll be hiding in a secured bunker for a much different reason, huh?

I swear. I didn't know that was his sister!

I'd be okay with a zombie outbreak as long as there were shifty men in long trench coats selling me supplies and drinking orange juice would replenish my health.

I think the movie Resident Evil 2 kinda touched on how a world that knows about zombies would deal with zombies.

Also, Pal, it would be easier if it was JUST the dead coming back, but when zombie germs spread through just a scratch, that is when it becomes out of control!

karmajay wrote:

Also, Pal, it would be easier if it was JUST the dead coming back, but when zombie germs spread through just a scratch, that is when it becomes out of control!

That's why human beings are tool users. Trust me, once the situation was diagnosed, there would be legions of National Guardsmen out in the streets in full NBC gear armed to the teeth. It would take a month tops to put an end to the zombie problem.

The civil order problem would be an entirely different thing.

Paleocon wrote:

The civil order problem would be an entirely different thing.

I believe the book covers a lot of aspects than just the military fighting zombies. It touches on the social, economic, and political details.. economies collapsing, countries is disarray... basically the breakdown of social order as you said.

As far as the military fighting zombies spread by a virus (not just simply the dead rising), I think you put too much faith in our technology. We're talking about things that don't need sleep, don't feel pain, don't have morale, and don't stop until they're dead. We might start off kicking their ass, but if their numbers were great enough we'd get worn down pretty quickly. Plus, on top of that you have all the chaos with the civilians to deal with.

Vega wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

The civil order problem would be an entirely different thing.

I believe the book covers a lot of aspects than just the military fighting zombies. It touches on the social, economic, and political details.. economies collapsing, countries is disarray... basically the breakdown of social order as you said.

As far as the military fighting zombies spread by a virus (not just simply the dead rising), I think you put too much faith in our technology. We're talking about things that don't need sleep, don't feel pain, don't have morale, and don't stop until they're dead. We might start off kicking their ass, but if their numbers were great enough we'd get worn down pretty quickly. Plus, on top of that you have all the chaos with the civilians to deal with.

I disagree about the advantages going to the zombies. If you think the military is not trained in dealing with indefatigable enemies, you haven't spent any time in the military. It boggles my mind that a modern military could be overrun by a "threat" that could be easily defeated by a concrete reinforced chainlink fence and a single M2 machinegun.

How fast do you think this could spread?

Lets say this starts in NYC.. ok then very fast spread and the entire tri state area could be zombified quickly. So lets say in a few days you have ~5 million functioning zombies. They don't move fast, and the infection will probably be localized within 20 miles or so of Manhattan. Easy cleanup with a lot of collateral damage.

It's not that they can't reinforce certain locations and make them impenetrable to zombie attack.. but what about everywhere else? They going to build a chainlink fence around the entrie country? entire cities? What about the zombies already inside this fence? If you have a city like New York or any large city.. infested with zombies.. and civilians hiding/fighting for their own lives. What good is carpet bombing going to do at that point? I'm sure there would be some large areas setup as "safe zones" where people could go. But that's a long way off from fighting a war and beating them easily in a month.

Most likely humans would win in the end.. but as you brought up, the social order breaking down and the chaos that ensued would be much worse. How many countries could survive their entire government breaking down and economies going bye-bye? (Assuming this is a world-wide out break, that is)

What exactly is 5 million zombies going to do when faced with a 1) a column of M1 Abrams tanks, 2) an AC130 gunship, and 3) a battery of MLRS launchers?

Hint: the acronym is DIP.

Paleocon wrote:

I disagree about the advantages going to the zombies. If you think the military is not trained in dealing with indefatigable enemies, you haven't spent any time in the military. It boggles my mind that a modern military could be overrun by a "threat" that could be easily defeated by a concrete reinforced chainlink fence and a single M2 machinegun.

Interesting. The one point I haven't heard you address yet is the fact that, as you mentioned, they have no coordinated sense of tactics. Sure, you can set up that fence and kill them. What happens when a bunch of zombies break off from attacking NYC and go after Newark? With a crowd of two million zombies, you can cover a lot of territory. How do you take them out when they start spreading out and infecting suburbia. Remember how many people stuck around through Katrina? I'm sure they'd find people and then there'd be MORE zombies.

Zombies are less prepared to survive in the real world than the dodo bird, buffalos, crocodiles, passenger pigeons, and all those birds that were killed around the turn of the century so that rich women could wear nice feathers in their hats. All it takes is a bounty on each zombie. Capitalism takes care of the rest.

Once zombie-skin raincoats are all the rage in Soho, once the chinese decide that zombie penis can be used as an aphrodisiac, once zombie burgers start being served at McDonalds as a 'free-range' and totally organic alternative to beef, then zombies become extinct.

Figure about 12 months from beginning to end.

Jolly Bill wrote:

Interesting. The one point I haven't heard you address yet is the fact that, as you mentioned, they have no coordinated sense of tactics. Sure, you can set up that fence and kill them. What happens when a bunch of zombies break off from attacking NYC and go after Newark? With a crowd of two million zombies, you can cover a lot of territory. How do you take them out when they start spreading out and infecting suburbia. Remember how many people stuck around through Katrina? I'm sure they'd find people and then there'd be MORE zombies.

What do you do? That's easy. You blow up the bridges, funnel the zombies into choke points, and bombard the hell out of them with MLRS launchers and clusterbomblets until there isn't anything left. If you're worried about disease, hit it with a little FAE to cook it down a bit.

The military trains constantly in the mitigation of disease spread. Until very recently, disease was the #1 killer on battlefields. Drilling in proper body disposal and disease mitigation is a BASIC element of military training.

funkenpants wrote:

once the chinese decide that zombie penis can be used as an aphrodisiac... then zombies become extinct.

Figure about 12 months from beginning to end.

Thanks, I was looking for a new sig!

Paleo, if you manage to get this thread moved to P&C, the nitpicks of the world will come together to build you a monument.
Slowly, and arguing over every conceivable aspect of it, but still, the thought will be there.

Paleocon wrote:
Jolly Bill wrote:

Interesting. The one point I haven't heard you address yet is the fact that, as you mentioned, they have no coordinated sense of tactics. Sure, you can set up that fence and kill them. What happens when a bunch of zombies break off from attacking NYC and go after Newark? With a crowd of two million zombies, you can cover a lot of territory. How do you take them out when they start spreading out and infecting suburbia. Remember how many people stuck around through Katrina? I'm sure they'd find people and then there'd be MORE zombies.

What do you do? That's easy. You blow up the bridges, funnel the zombies into choke points, and bombard the hell out of them with MLRS launchers and clusterbomblets until there isn't anything left. If you're worried about disease, hit it with a little FAE to cook it down a bit.

The military trains constantly in the mitigation of disease spread. Until very recently, disease was the #1 killer on battlefields. Drilling in proper body disposal and disease mitigation is a BASIC element of military training.

I see your point, but I don't think even Bush would be able to stomach the civilian casualties. At the very least they would try less extreme measures first. And who knows how well zombies can walk underwater?

The other question is how to know where the zombies are. Against a completely tech-less enemy, the military would have to rely on scouts and estimations. That's a tough margin of error to overcome. Also, how widespread would the initial disease would be? Assuming a scratch or bite can infect a person, and it takes several hours to completely finish. During that time they will be running/driving as far as they can away from the other zombies, immediately increasing the distance covered.

NemesisZero wrote:

Paleo, if you manage to get this thread moved to P&C, the nitpicks of the world will come together to build you a monument.
Slowly, and arguing over every conceivable aspect of it, but still, the thought will be there.

lol. I bring your attention to....

Jolly Bill wrote:

I see your point, but I don't think even Bush would be able to stomach the civilian casualties. At the very least they would try less extreme measures first. And who knows how well zombies can walk underwater?

Just wanted to point out I wasn't the one who brought up Bush.

Anyway, I don't think it would much matter in a political environment where Americans would be faced with a massive zombie infestation. No one would fault an American president for carpetbombing a zombie horde.

As for the idea that zombies could walk across the bed of the East River, I would remind you that boats routinely get swept out to sea in that current. Walking across that water would require freaking kung fu grip.

Zombies lack survival instincts. They don't run when faced with gunfire. They don't hide or take cover when being bombarded with artillery. They don't flank or coordinate with their pals to present meaningful tactical challenges to a sufficiently well-trained and equipped adversary. Even sheep are smarter than that.

They can't melt into the population undetected. They are easily identified and dealt with. It's not like they are vampires or terminators that make a credible effort at faking being human.

What exactly is 5 million zombies

Also, it is not like it will just be 5 million zombies rolling down the street. They will be mingled with civilians plus all of the people holes up in their houses or apartments. Carpet bombing won't help them!

Jolly Bill wrote:

And who knows how well zombies can walk underwater?

And then you have zombie sharks, and its all freaking over

Zombies lack survival instincts. They don't run when faced with gunfire. They don't hide or take cover when being bombarded with artillery. They don't flank or coordinate with their pals to present meaningful tactical challenges to a sufficiently well-trained and equipped adversary. Even sheep are smarter than that.

You failed to answer my question. Lacking these instincts also make them incredibly hard to track, since they don't always travel in a group, and even when they do, they tend to ample in random directions when not faced with meaty temptation. How do you plan to make that sufficiently well coordinated attack on 2 million zombies spread across the east coast? How do you communicate to people where it's safe to hunker down when it's nearly impossible to know where the zombies are without visual verification?

For the carpet bombing to be effective, it would have to take place before the threat was widespread, which would inevitably lead to a backlash from those who didn't feel the threat justified the response.

karmajay wrote:
What exactly is 5 million zombies

Also, it is not like it will just be 5 million zombies rolling down the street. They will be mingled with civilians plus all of the people holes up in their houses or apartments. Carpet bombing won't help them!

The 70 year old shut ins are screwed regardless of what you do. Just ask the Lebanese.

Honestly the more I think about this, the more I end up thinking that it would be impossible to COMPLETELY wipe out the zombie horde, but they could be repelled from major cities. In regards to social order, we'd end up back in feudal states, with the military in power doling out protection. Zombie groups would remain in the wilderness, feeding on animals and farmers, and occasionaly emerge Civ II like to attack cities.

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