A Question for Libertarians

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/05/AR2006040500909.html

The link above is to a story regarding stores that sell crack pipes. My question is: do you think it is an unreasonable restriction on one's right to commerce to sell crack pipes knowing full well that the effect on the neighborhood will be bad?

Second time I've commented on a bad link today man...

What does, "Shooting at Roosevelt High Injures 19-Year-Old Student", have to do with crack pipes?

So should they get the pipes from illegal sources instead, and give more money to criminals? All you do when you make a drug + drug parphenalia illegal is divert money to "questionable" elements (see Prohibition and Al Capone, cocaine and the mess in Colombia).

Why not spend energy and time fighting the root causes of people going to drugs, and truly educate the people on the risks involved (not just frying eggs on a stove, really educate), rather than throwing money into enforcement of laws that people will get around anyway?

Mayfield wrote:

So should they get the pipes from illegal sources instead, and give more money to criminals? All you do when you make a drug + drug parphenalia illegal is divert money to "questionable" elements (see Prohibition and Al Capone, cocaine and the mess in Colombia).

Why not spend energy and time fighting the root causes of people going to drugs, and truly educate the people on the risks involved (not just frying eggs on a stove, really educate), rather than throwing money into enforcement of laws that people will get around anyway?

What he said. Times infinity.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume this is the right article.

While I can't say I agree with the use of crack, especially since I get to read about what it can do to a person every day, I can't see how the police can arrest them for selling these. While it may be a crack pipe, they aren't advertising it as such, and not selling crack. Many adult stores sell bongs, though marijuana sale/use is illegal. I've gotten to read about any number of perfectly legal items being used as bongs/pipes... are we going to outlaw them next?

Ultimately, I agree with Mayfield. Crack isn't the best thing for a neighborhood, but it wouldn't be the root cause of the problem. Maybe that's where their attention should be.

I appreciate individual liberty, but I wouldn't have a huge objection to a neighborhood association issuing a prohibition on the sale of crack pipes in their neighborhood.

Paleocon wrote:

I appreciate individual liberty, but I wouldn't have a huge objection to a neighborhood association issuing a prohibition on the sale of crack pipes in their neighborhood.

I don't either. Your neighborhood is what you make it. If you turn your head at this stuff, it'll become the norm. I don't have any problem with the people rising up against the people doing this, I'm just saying that the police shouldn't be able to arrest someone, because their product can be used as a crack pipe.

PurEvil wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I appreciate individual liberty, but I wouldn't have a huge objection to a neighborhood association issuing a prohibition on the sale of crack pipes in their neighborhood.

I don't either. Your neighborhood is what you make it. If you turn your head at this stuff, it'll become the norm. I don't have any problem with the people rising up against the people doing this, I'm just saying that the police shouldn't be able to arrest someone, because their product can be used as a crack pipe.

I would agree with that.

I have Libertarian friends that have real serious objections to neighborhood associations installing surveillance cameras to prevent or document vandals, drug dealers, prostitutes, and/or car thieves from operating in their neighborhoods. I tell them they are welcome to live in crack dens if they like, but I'm okay with a little "Big Brother" action as long as it is locally controlled and not subject to use by folks outside of my local government (whom, btw, I take an active role in).

Paleocon wrote:

I have Libertarian friends that have real serious objections to neighborhood associations installing surveillance cameras to prevent or document vandals, drug dealers, prostitutes, and/or car thieves from operating in their neighborhoods.

Whoa.. isn't this a big jump from just banning the sale of pipes? You are including a lot of crimes there to check for.

And didn't you say just the other day that Americans are safer than they ever have been. Why put in cameras that have the potential for abuse when it is not necessary?

Mayfield wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I have Libertarian friends that have real serious objections to neighborhood associations installing surveillance cameras to prevent or document vandals, drug dealers, prostitutes, and/or car thieves from operating in their neighborhoods.

Whoa.. isn't this a big jump from just banning the sale of pipes? You are including a lot of crimes there to check for.

And didn't you say just the other day that Americans are safer than they ever have been. Why put in cameras that have the potential for abuse when it is not necessary?

I agree that Americans are a lot safer than they've been, but I really like the idea of having the punkass kid's face on tape when he busts into my car. Those are two completely separate issues.

I agree that it is important to be vigillant against the potential for abuse. This is one of the reasons why you build safeguards for the use of surveillance. I, for instance, would object to anyone other than the neighborhood association having access to the surveillance tapes. I would not want the information kept for more than 30 days. I would not want it given or sold to anyone outside of the organization.

That being said, I could give a rat's rectum about the perceived rights a punk kid has to privacy when it comes to breaking into cars on MY street.

I appreciate individual liberty, but I wouldn't have a huge objection to a neighborhood association issuing a prohibition on the sale of crack pipes in their neighborhood.

Define "crack pipe", please.

I have Libertarian friends that have real serious objections to neighborhood associations installing surveillance cameras to prevent or document vandals, drug dealers, prostitutes, and/or car thieves from operating in their neighborhoods.

Then they don't understand the freedom of association with like-minded individuals. Nothing that I'm aware of Libertarianism denies you the right to *voluntarily* submit to observation. As long as it's your choice...

It follows then that signs would be posted and perhaps the area would be gated. That way, no one who disagrees would have to enter into surveillance.

Robear wrote:
I appreciate individual liberty, but I wouldn't have a huge objection to a neighborhood association issuing a prohibition on the sale of crack pipes in their neighborhood.

Define "crack pipe", please.

I have Libertarian friends that have real serious objections to neighborhood associations installing surveillance cameras to prevent or document vandals, drug dealers, prostitutes, and/or car thieves from operating in their neighborhoods.

Then they don't understand the freedom of association with like-minded individuals. Nothing that I'm aware of Libertarianism denies you the right to *voluntarily* submit to observation. As long as it's your choice...

It follows then that signs would be posted and perhaps the area would be gated. That way, no one who disagrees would have to enter into surveillance.

You have it right. As long as it's clearly posted that you're entering a surveillance area, and it's not looking into your private property, it aint' no big deal.

I don't have any issues with crime prevention ... it's the persecution of victimless crimes that gets me all riled up. Having said that, I don't have a problem with a store selling something like pipes if it helps alleviate the black market need for that item. Throw me in the Mayfield/Bagga camp.

Paleocon wrote:

I agree that Americans are a lot safer than they've been, but I really like the idea of having the punkass kid's face on tape when he busts into my car. Those are two completely separate issues.

So buy a video camera and point it at your car from your property. No one is stopping you. If the government would stop spending huge amounts of money to nanny people the money you save in tax dollars could pay for the camera to film it, the PC to put it on and the huge hard drive to save 30 days of recordings.

My point about the pipes is that you'd have to ban the sale of glass tubing and scouring pads, and anything that uses those two components. I'm not sure that's feasible. I mean, you can ban the sale of bongs, supposedly, but then I see pictures of people smoking marijuana from apples, ffs. How effective is that kind of ban? Humans *are* tool-users, after all, and we are generally really good at making things from other things, even when stoned, apparently.

Robear wrote:

My point about the pipes is that you'd have to ban the sale of glass tubing and scouring pads, and anything that uses those two components. I'm not sure that's feasible. I mean, you can ban the sale of bongs, supposedly, but then I see pictures of people smoking marijuana from apples, ffs. How effective is that kind of ban? Humans *are* tool-users, after all, and we are generally really good at making things from other things, even when stoned, apparently.

I get that, but I think it is one thing to recognize that folks are resourceful and an entirely different thing to make the blighting of one's own neighborhood convenient. There is no doubt in my mind that folks will improvise tools to help them use crack, but there is no reason one should make it as easy as going into a liquor store and picking up a crack pipe for a dollar. That only serves to legitimate that behavior.

I know this is awfully NIMBY of me, but I'd much prefer that folks practiced their self-destructive behavior in the invisibility of their own blighted neighborhoods. They are certainly welcome to do so there as long as they don't venture into MY neighborhood, steal MY television, and solicit their poison to MY kids.

Are people not becoming crack addicts because of a lack of pipes? I'm not sure that's the right way to address the issue. If the problem is crack addicts messing up the neighborhood, a sort of passive-aggressive denial of services is not going to work well. The sale of pipes is an indicator, not a cause.

Dealing with the root cause is better. Prosecute addicts for petty theft, property crimes, housing violations and the like; use community policing to identify crack houses and raid them; engage narcotics detectives to root out dealers; follow up with increased patrols and awareness programs to prevent a return.

Once that is done, the annoying crack pipe dealers will leave.

Robear wrote:

Are people not becoming crack addicts because of a lack of pipes? I'm not sure that's the right way to address the issue. If the problem is crack addicts messing up the neighborhood, a sort of passive-aggressive denial of services is not going to work well. The sale of pipes is an indicator, not a cause.

Dealing with the root cause is better. Prosecute addicts for petty theft, property crimes, housing violations and the like; use community policing to identify crack houses and raid them; engage narcotics detectives to root out dealers; follow up with increased patrols and awareness programs to prevent a return.

Once that is done, the annoying crack pipe dealers will leave. :-)

I agree that all of the above steps are necessary, but I view the selling of crack pipes much the way I view allowing gang tagging on elementary school property. It tends to legitimate behavior that needs to be put in the context of "unacceptable".

Again, tagging is illegal, selling decorative flower tubes is not. So I don't buy the comparison.

Robear beat me to it. Was going to say spray-paint though.

Although I do hear some local advocacy for tagging as 'art'.

Robear wrote:

Again, tagging is illegal, selling decorative flower tubes is not. So I don't buy the comparison.

Once again, I'm not a big fan of using government (even local government) as a hammer. Most shopowners tend to be reasonable when their neighborhood patrons tell them they aren't fond of their choice to profit by contributing to the blighting of their neighborhood. Though selling items like that is legal behavior, it is also at least impolite. The freedom to do anything in a civil society does not equal an obligation to do everything.

Although I do hear some local advocacy for tagging as 'art'.

Art generally involves more than "Gang$ta Di$ciple$" or "6 poppin" or "BK".

Once again, I'm not a big fan of using government (even local government) as a hammer. Most shopowners tend to be reasonable when their neighborhood patrons tell them they aren't fond of their choice to profit by contributing to the blighting of their neighborhood. Though selling items like that is legal behavior, it is also at least impolite. The freedom to do anything in a civil society does not equal an obligation to do everything.

Yeah, but these are street vendors or low margin store owners. They'll sell papers and rubbing alcohol, too. It's not like Target is moving these things.

So, Paleocon, by your argument, we should put pressure on all the grocery stores around here.

Things sold at your average Safeway that can be used to get high:

Ready-Whip (and knock-offs)
Lighters
Scour pads
Allegator clips
Peanuts (must be in the shell)
LSA Green Tea
Poppy seads
Bleach
Drain cleaner
Paper
OTC and asthma medications containing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine
lye
lantern fuel
antifreeze

I could go on for a good while, but I'm at work, and it would take me too long to really get into it. I hate to argue against this, since I agree that drugs are a big problem, but I can't agree with the attack against the glass tubes.

EDIT: You'd also have to find all stores in the area that sell heat-resistant tubes. Glass is just the most common crack pipe. You could also substitute with pyrex, high temp plastic, or metal. (I know for a fact a turkey baster would work, and you can get one at a kitchen store for a dollar or two).

PurEvil wrote:

So, Paleocon, by your argument, we should put pressure on all the grocery stores around here.

Things sold at your average Safeway that can be used to get high:

Nevermind the chemicals sold at a supermarket that can be used to make explosives...

PurEvil wrote:

So, Paleocon, by your argument, we should put pressure on all the grocery stores around here.

Things sold at your average Safeway that can be used to get high:

Ready-Whip (and knock-offs)
Lighters
Scour pads
Allegator clips
Peanuts (must be in the shell)
LSA Green Tea
Poppy seads
Bleach
Drain cleaner
Paper
OTC and asthma medications containing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine
lye
lantern fuel
antifreeze

I could go on for a good while, but I'm at work, and it would take me too long to really get into it. I hate to argue against this, since I agree that drugs are a big problem, but I can't agree with the attack against the glass tubes.

EDIT: You'd also have to find all stores in the area that sell heat-resistant tubes. Glass is just the most common crack pipe. You could also substitute with pyrex, high temp plastic, or metal. (I know for a fact a turkey baster would work, and you can get one at a kitchen store for a dollar or two).

This is the "extension" argument, but I think we can agree that there is a functional difference between selling plumbing supplies and selling ready made zip-guns.

And, for the record, I'm all for needle exchanges --- as long as they are in someone else's neighborhood.

Paleocon wrote:

This is the "extension" argument, but I think we can agree that there is a functional difference between selling plumbing supplies and selling ready made zip-guns.

And, for the record, I'm all for needle exchanges --- as long as they are in someone else's neighborhood.

I can give you that... I was using the extension argument, but I feel the accessability of homemade drugs are on the same level as homemade drug paraphenilia. Yet you didn't address my edit at the bottom. You can make a crack pipe out of an aluminum can (most grocery stores have a machine outside that sells Pipsi/Coke in a can for $0.50 - $1). Going after soda next? Or RedBull, since their can would be even better?

Now, how can you get high on scour pads?

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

Now, how can you get high on scour pads?

You don't, you use them as a filter for the crack, as it shoots through the pipe.

Gorilla wrote:

Now, how can you get high on scour pads?

n00B!!!

Man... live and learn something new every day, what else can I say!