Here's what the situation has come to in Iraq, for civilians.
"The Ministry of Defense requests that civilians do not comply with the orders of the army or police on nightly patrols unless they are accompanied by coalition forces working in that area."
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Entry from Tuesday, March 26
It's just wonderful to see what $400B (and counting) can do for a country.
Very soon, I think we WILL have the justification to stay in Iraq -- to prevent Iraqis from a Yugoslavia-style mutual genocide.
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And if you are a Realist instead of a Neocon or Liberal Interventionist, you won't be able to escape the conclusion that that is NOT a justification to stay in Iraq.
I think Paleocon is right about pretty much everything. -- Mex
Paleocon is entirely right --DanB
I've made my case, Paleocon... and now I am abandoning it, because yours is far more persuasive. --detriot20
Paleocon is a wise man --Taer
The killing of of ethnicities has been going on in that country, in that region, for many thousands of years. It's sort of like "Say, if we pour enough water on the sun, it should go out, right?"
Property of the Bensonhoist Lesbian Choir of Ground Zero, Brooklyn
I actually disagree with that. From everything I've read on the subject, the concept of a widespread ownership of sectarian violence is a relatively recent thing. It was mainly brought about through the power vacuum left behind after the fall of Saddam. That being said, it is a reality now and we aren't going to stop it.
I think Paleocon is right about pretty much everything. -- Mex
Paleocon is entirely right --DanB
I've made my case, Paleocon... and now I am abandoning it, because yours is far more persuasive. --detriot20
Paleocon is a wise man --Taer
Paleocon: disagreeing with abso-frickin'-lutely everyone since 2005!
The thing about smart people is they seem like crazy people to dumb people -- Thing I saw on the Internet
No I don't!
I think Paleocon is right about pretty much everything. -- Mex
Paleocon is entirely right --DanB
I've made my case, Paleocon... and now I am abandoning it, because yours is far more persuasive. --detriot20
Paleocon is a wise man --Taer
Left blank
Property of the Bensonhoist Lesbian Choir of Ground Zero, Brooklyn
Actually, wasn't Saddam himself a major proponent of sectarian violence, even genocide?
“Christianity, sprung from Jewish roots, represents the counter-movement to any morality of breeding, of race, privilege: it is the anti-Aryan religion.” Friedrich Nietzsche, The Twilight of the Idols, on why Christianity should be rejected.
That's a bit of a misreading. Saddam, although clearly brutal, was mostly so in a manner of supporting a Pan-Arabist, secular agenda. Christians, for instance, were a protected minority in his cabinet. There were secular divisions, but much of that was exacerbated by foreign influence. SCIRI, for example, was effectively a covert wing of the Iranian Supreme Council.
The majority of residents in the greater Baghdad metropolitan area were either not concerned or not aware of their sectarian identity until after the fall of Saddam. Many of those families intermarried. Now, it appears, that is the heart of the most intense violence.
I think Paleocon is right about pretty much everything. -- Mex
Paleocon is entirely right --DanB
I've made my case, Paleocon... and now I am abandoning it, because yours is far more persuasive. --detriot20
Paleocon is a wise man --Taer
How do you mean, Nomad? I believe he was willing to kill any opponents of his regime, no matter what creed or ethnicity they were.
The two sides to every story are true and false, not yours and theirs. Facts are not political; lies are. - Deven Green (Mrs. Betty Bowers)
Exactly. I have heard a lot of interviews with Iraqis recently that confirm this. They state that they simply didn't know or care what sect their neighbors belonged to. Now they are brutally aware of these things.
Sadam was a uniter not a divider, baby! (J/K)
"I like to hear people talking when they're not talking to me," I said. "It's soothing to know that I don't have to listen." -- Bill Harris describing a truism.
I just read the article and have to say that that is possibly the most screwed up thing I've read in a while. Basically, they are making announcements that you should not open the door and let folks in at night unless there are Americans in the breach party. Considering that the Coalition forces are making an effort to lead with Iraqi forces, there is no way in hell that a groggy resident is going to be able to tell there is a white guy in camo dressing 60 feet behind the breach team manning the .50 of a Humvee.
I foresee this order leading to a LOT of dead innocent Iraqis defending their homes from folks they believe to be abductors.
I think Paleocon is right about pretty much everything. -- Mex
Paleocon is entirely right --DanB
I've made my case, Paleocon... and now I am abandoning it, because yours is far more persuasive. --detriot20
Paleocon is a wise man --Taer
Why doesn't the media report the success stories in Iraq? For instance, guys who own gun shops are doing great over there:
Sectarian Strife Fuels Gun Sales in Baghdad
The solution is obvious: Design a special suit for the Americans to wear made of platinum and diamonds. Every American soldier gets one, officers get two. That way the citizens can easily recognize the good guys and the bad guys can't afford to fake it.
Second solution: (slap me if I've mentioned this before) Send Saddam back with a Nobel Peace Prize stapled to his butt and apologize.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/45...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/h...
http://www.kurdmedia.com/articles.as...
http://www.newyorker.com/online/cont...
http://www.iraqwatch.org/perspective...
Here is a quote from this >>>article<<<. WARNING: This article includes a fairly graphic picture of death.
This is undisputible evidence of genocide, and it took me all of 5 mins using Google.
“Christianity, sprung from Jewish roots, represents the counter-movement to any morality of breeding, of race, privilege: it is the anti-Aryan religion.” Friedrich Nietzsche, The Twilight of the Idols, on why Christianity should be rejected.
He also slaughtered Shi'ites en masse, displaced and killed large numbers of the Marsh Arabs while destroying their environment, and engaged in campaigns of terror against Sunni families and clans even within his political support base. Arguing that he was sectarian ignores the fact that he used violence against *anyone* who opposed his regime.
Saddam acted against his opponents not based on their sect or ethnicity, but based on the magnitude of the perceived threat. Iraq under Saddam saw institutionalized violence, but not violence driven by militias and religious allegiance as we see today. This is a fundamental shift for the country, although in no way an improvement.
The two sides to every story are true and false, not yours and theirs. Facts are not political; lies are. - Deven Green (Mrs. Betty Bowers)
Talk about timing...
Check out the front page of CNN today.
Looks like genocide to me.
“Christianity, sprung from Jewish roots, represents the counter-movement to any morality of breeding, of race, privilege: it is the anti-Aryan religion.” Friedrich Nietzsche, The Twilight of the Idols, on why Christianity should be rejected.
Nomad, you are dancing away from your comment. Sectarian violence is not genocide. Saddam practiced genocide, I believe, but his violence was not sectarian in origin, which was to me the controversial claim you made. Violence in Iraq today is different in motivation from that under Saddam; that is, sectarian violence has not been the norm until the last few years, at least for the history of Iraq since the British rule.
Feel free to correct me about that. I'm still a bit sketchy on the nature of the conflicts that took place between the 20's and the late 70's, but my recollection is that they were mostly between Baathists and their opponents, not general Sunni/Shi'ite violence as is seen today.
The two sides to every story are true and false, not yours and theirs. Facts are not political; lies are. - Deven Green (Mrs. Betty Bowers)
Dancing away from my comment?
The actual title of today's front page article on cnn.com was " Hussein Charged With Genocide". I don't know how it gets any more obvious than that. The article even went so far as to give the actual definion of genocide as follows.
I'm not quite sure why you are even arguing this point. It seems clear to me that Saddam was a major proponent of genocide, as the prosecutors and most of the world would agree. It may not be all daffodills and lollipops in Iraq, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking things are worse off for the average citizen than before the war.
“Christianity, sprung from Jewish roots, represents the counter-movement to any morality of breeding, of race, privilege: it is the anti-Aryan religion.” Friedrich Nietzsche, The Twilight of the Idols, on why Christianity should be rejected.
He was arguing your use of the word sectarian, not that it wasn't Genocide. You're either missing his obvious point or dancing away from it as he said..
Better to reign in P&C than serve in Everything Else. - Tanglebones
Free-to-play games are free so that the people who pay money for them have someone to play them with. -Cloquette
Yup. That screaching sound you hear is the sound of the goalposts being moved.
The Russian extermination of Chechans can easily be characterized as "genocide" (largely a political term), but it is very difficult to argue that it is sectarian in nature. The same can be argued of the American massacres of Mexicans in 1848.
The issue here is whether or not Iraqis, prior to the current era, self-identified as "Shiite" or "Sunni" as a matter of primary allegiance. The evidence suggests that the answer is clearly NO and that the power vacuum created by the bungling of the Bush Administration created an environment in which only the most radical sectarian elements could thrive.
I think Paleocon is right about pretty much everything. -- Mex
Paleocon is entirely right --DanB
I've made my case, Paleocon... and now I am abandoning it, because yours is far more persuasive. --detriot20
Paleocon is a wise man --Taer