Comics, etc.

unntrlaffinity wrote:

Well, even Alan Moore is willing to admit that Watchmen is his best work, and I'd think he'd know better than all of us.

The debate over what constitutes Moore's best work to the side, I totally disagree with this statement. More likely the opposite. A creator is often too close to the works to sit back and really critically judge them. I'm not saying that Moore (or any artist) can't be right here, but I definitely don't think it adds weight to the argument, and isn't a slam dunk by any stretch.

I have been intending to check out Runaways as well. I'll probably pick up the hardcover volume 1 this weekend.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

The debate over what constitutes Moore's best work to the side, I totally disagree with this statement. More likely the opposite. A creator is often too close to the works to sit back and really critically judge them. I'm not saying that Moore (or any artist) can't be right here, but I definitely don't think it adds weight to the argument, and isn't a slam dunk by any stretch.

It was a begrudging admission made nearly two decades after he wrote it, with the hindsight and body of work 30 years of writing comics can bring. And I disagree. I think if the author is willing to be completely honest with himself picking out his most critical work becomes a very simple task. I've got another example, which is possibly going to make me look like an ass because I might be inverting the titles, but I'm going to relay it anyway. Gabriel Garcia Marquez was giving an interview for his newest book, Memories of My Melancholy Whores, and one of the subjects that came up was how he thought it was amusing they would sell copies of 100 Years of Solitude by placing on the cover "From the Author of Love in the Time of Cholera", because in his mind, while the other book was more widely known, 100 Years was his greatest work. Stephen King admits that while it's depressing to think he wrote his best work over a decade ago, there may actually be something to the general consensus that it is "The Stand". And in that one, popular opinion and the author's opinion meet.

And the idea anything I could say would make my argument a "slam dunk" I find amusing, because when it comes to debating over something so subjective as an opinion the only thing that can strengthen either (or any, if there are many) viewpoint is the odd combination of passion and logic thrown behind each argument (a good example of which is my "Alan Moore should know." comment. Can't you just hear the snide way I would say this if we were having this conversation in person, and the obnoxious smirk that would be plastered across my face?) If both sides can back up their statements, there are no slam dunks with such things.

Runaways starts off really well, like I said. But I tend to judge mainstream Marvel and DC books pretty harshly, because they tend to fall back on what I view as lazy storytelling. And for my 4 dollars an issue, I want more than that. A movie may cost you 8 bucks, but a comic series charges you that much for 2 issues, a number of pages that amounts to less than 1/4 of a very short novel (unless you're Steinbeck or Hemmingway), and they'll probably take you less than 20 minutes to read. Pound for pound, comics are not a good deal when it comes to your entertainment dollar, and comic publishers are lucky their core audience is so dedicated, which unfortunately is probably why they keep feeding them the same stories over and over, each new convoluted twist and plotline incestuously building upon the last until you have such a mess there's nothing left to do but initiate some sort of clumsy "Crisis on Infinite Pocketbooks" housecleaning to fix your continuity.

Look at Ellis. Planetary is brilliant, and my favorite of his works. Transmetropolitan is equally brilliant and runs a close second. Then he gets a deal to write Fantastic Four, and my interest is piqued, but after reading it for awhile I realize that nothing he can do under the yoke of Marvel will satisfy me, because it will seem subdued compared to such phenomenal previous series. He probably could take them in an amazing new direction, but they would never let him, and you can almost see the miserable level of forced restraint oozing between the lettering of half-hearted superhero quips.

NemesisZero wrote:
DrunkenSleipnir wrote:

At the risk of sounding too dorky...

I tell myself that I'm redeemed because I could talk about Remarque or Tucholsky with the same frevor.

That's just heaping more dorkiness on top of dork.

unntrl, I have a hard time believing ANYONE could write a fresh, interesting Fantastic Four story these days. To be fair, they've never been my favorite characters. Spider-Man is probably my all-time favorite. Still, I have to say that even with him, I wonder what is left to say. The only "classic" characters that I'm reading the new stuff on is Astonishing X-Men. After coming back to comics via Y: The Last Man and 100 Bullets, I've been reading mostly creator-owned stuff. I do (as mentioned above) love the Exiles, but part of the appeal for me was that every story arc was a What If?/Elseworlds - type experience. I also enjoyed most of Grant Morrison's run on New X-Men (it was great until he decided to leave and sew up the plot way too quickly), so I suppose it IS possible to do something new and interesting with characters that are older than I am. But after thousands of Spider-Man and X-Men stories, it seems to me that it becomes increasingly unlikely that someone will tell a new and interesting story. Possible, yes, like Morrison's New X-Men - but more and more difficult, and less and less likely.

I also don't think I've seen anyone on either thread mention that the current Conan from Dark Horse is AWESOME if you like that sort of thing. Possibly the best comic book art ever.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

unntrl, I have a hard time believing ANYONE could write a fresh, interesting Fantastic Four story these days. To be fair, they've never been my favorite characters. Spider-Man is probably my all-time favorite. Still, I have to say that even with him, I wonder what is left to say. The only "classic" characters that I'm reading the new stuff on is Astonishing X-Men. After coming back to comics via Y: The Last Man and 100 Bullets, I've been reading mostly creator-owned stuff. I do (as mentioned above) love the Exiles, but part of the appeal for me was that every story arc was a What If?/Elseworlds - type experience. I also enjoyed most of Grant Morrison's run on New X-Men (it was great until he decided to leave and sew up the plot way too quickly), so I suppose it IS possible to do something new and interesting with characters that are older than I am. But after thousands of Spider-Man and X-Men stories, it seems to me that it becomes increasingly unlikely that someone will tell a new and interesting story. Possible, yes, like Morrison's New X-Men - but more and more difficult, and less and less likely.

I also don't think I've seen anyone on either thread mention that the current Conan from Dark Horse is AWESOME if you like that sort of thing. Possibly the best comic book art ever.

I agree, that's generally my biggest problem with mainstream superhero comics: there's just nothing left to say. Stories without endings don't move me the way ones that come to a fitting conclusion can, like the Sandman. Finishing that series is probably the first time I ever felt truly sad after reading a comic. But instead of doing the comic equivalent of retiring Spider-man's jersey, they just keep pumping it out, which gives us travesties like the Spider Clone saga. As a kid, reading that, wasting my money on a string of spinoffs just to follow one storyline, I got burned out and cancelled all my subs and gave up reading comics for years. Let these classic characters fall by the wayside, and then, if someone truly has an interesting and refreshing story to tell about them, bring them back for a short period. How about working on giving birth to the next Spider-man? Why drive franchises into the ground (coughstartrekcough) instead of waiting for a worthy successor?

And yes, hooray for creator owned. I can't get enough of Warren Ellis's increasingly prolific side-projects, and I wish more creators would do the same. Even on the ones that don't completely work, it's exciting to know he's trying out something new, and I'm willing to buy it and make his risk/investment worthwhile. He's proved it can work, and experiments like "Fell" are even taking on the intimidating task of figuring out new ways to approach the medium. God, I've used the word medium too much in this thread. I guess I'm making up for the way fast food places now only have "small, large, and larger". I actually asked for a medium once, and I didn't realize I was at a chain that didn't have an official medium size. I was told they didn't have that size, so I pointed out that technically, wouldn't the one in the middle have been what I wanted? I got a blank stare, sighed, and told them to super-size it.

[quote=Jolly Bill]

Warlock wrote:

I can't remember the name right now, but I picked up another one at the same time, called Confessions or something like that. It was about a kid (no powers) becoming a superhero, under a guy called The Confessor I think. I liked the fact that it focused on the kid, and the huge, worldshaking battles going on were all background and just mentioned in passing until they intrude directly on his life.

cartoonin99 wrote:

Wanted. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...

Wanted was good, very good, even though I thought the ending was goofy and anti-climactic. However, it was nowhere near being "Watchmen for Villians", which is how it was touted previous to its release. Millar on stilts can't touch Moore with a ten foot pole.

Here's my Millar comic checklist. It's very helpful in determining if he has written the series you're currently reading.

It has:
1. Sodomy.
2. Rape.
3. Hyper-violence, so over-the-top that it has more in common with old Warner Brothers cartoons than the realistic feeling violence of its peers such as Preacher. At least one person's head explodes.
4. Torture.
5. More sodomy.
6. The coining of new and interesting profanity.
7. Characters that are given a chance to have a change of heart and show mercy, but slaughter the helpless with a quip anyway.
8. At least one barely disguised mainstream superhero parody.
9. A story that is pushed to the very limits of taste, and then, when you think it cannot possibly be escalated any further, is dosed with liberal handfuls of Emeril's magic "kick it up a notch" fairy dust.
10. Finally, even more sodomy.

Did I miss anything?

I fear that, by those standards, _The Filth_ may appear to be by Millar instead of Grant Morrison.

Has Millar wrote anything else worth reading? I loved Wanted, but it seems like he mostly writes Ultimate titles, and as a long-time Marvel fan, something bothers me about the whole idea of them. Anyone want to explain to me why the Ultimate stuff is worth reading?

Fedaykin98 wrote:

Has Millar wrote anything else worth reading? I loved Wanted, but it seems like he mostly writes Ultimate titles, and as a long-time Marvel fan, something bothers me about the whole idea of them. Anyone want to explain to me why the Ultimate stuff is worth reading?

Personally, I don't think they are. But I'm a hater.

His "breakout moment" for me was writing the second arc of "The Authority". He did issues 12-22, and then 27-29 (22, 27, 28, and 29 are actually part of the same story arc, with 23-26 a 4 arc fill-in because the series was having problems with finding artists capable of putting the series out on time due to other commitments.) I liked his arc a lot, but it lacks a certain amount of...storytelling finesse like you'll find in Warren Ellis's work, where if something ridiculous and over-the-top happens, it's for a reason. Millar did some interesting stuff, but mostly escalated every single element to the breaking point, so that by the time volume 1 was over the series had completely blown its load. It's a theme he repeated in Wanted, violence for violence's sake and being vulgar for the same reason, that while entertaining I think will hardly stand the test of time. All that was left for writers after Millar to do with the title was to try and further push the envelope, but there was really no room left for them to do so, and you'll find yourself mostly desensitized to their attempts. So basically, after volume 2, The Authority isn't really worth reading. I finally cancelled my subscription when they had a crossover storyline, because after the Spider-clone saga, I vowed I would not read any comic that wasn't self-sufficient and required me to have read some tangential series to keep up with the storyline.

Millar also did an alternative universe mini of Superman called "Red Son", which operates under the assumption that Superman's capsule landed in the Soviet Union instead of the United States. It's the most interesting Superman story I've read in quite a while (I generally don't find him that interesting of a character) but it ends with an almost Star Trek-ish storyline copout. But still, it's worth reading, which is saying a lot for a current mainstream hero comic.

That Red Son does sound interesting. I'm planning on checking out The Authority, but first I'm going to read the Warren Ellis Stormwatch run that leads into it. Planning on getting the first trade of that this weekend. So my planned purchase:

Runaways HC
Rising Stars vols 2,3, and Visitations (or whatever it's called)
Stormwatch vol 1

I am saddened that this thread has been stagnant the last few days!

This weekend I bought and read vol. 1 of The Walking Dead, which I loved. Totally a good one for fans of 28 Days Later, which I totally loved.

I finished V for Vendetta, which I really didn't like that much. I don't see what the fuss is - so much of it had already been written by Orwell, Huxley, etc.

I started the second trade of The Invisibles, and it's good so far.

I read the second trade of Rising Stars, which continues to be good.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

I read the second trade of Rising Stars, which continues to be good.

I never finished Rising Stars, because its release became so erratic while I was reading it. While I understand the various things that can go wrong, constant and frequent delays (what we will refer to as 'Pulling a Battle Chasers') can really turn me off of a comic. It's a unique way to experience a story probably most like serial novels, which I don't think anyone but Stephen King has even attempted much in the past decade.

You'll have to eventually tell me if it ends as strong as it began.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

I fear that, by those standards, _The Filth_ may appear to be by Millar instead of Grant Morrison.

Has Millar wrote anything else worth reading? I loved Wanted, but it seems like he mostly writes Ultimate titles, and as a long-time Marvel fan, something bothers me about the whole idea of them. Anyone want to explain to me why the Ultimate stuff is worth reading?

If you like Marvel comics because of their long-running continuity, they're not. If you like the characters as mythic heroes, reinterpreted by different writers over time, and you find yourself saying "What the hell is going on here, and who are these people?" when you try to read recent X-Men or Spiderman books, the Ultimate line is well done. The writing is fairly good, the art is decent, and the storylines tend to be self-contained.

Thanks for all your help everyone!

I went out yesterday and purchased the Watchmen and Fables (1). Also managed to pick up Serenity while I was out. It was a nice recap of what could have either been an entire season or just 3 episodes. I can dream...

Anyway, already read Fables and was very happy with it. Watchmen will have to be next. I managed to flip through Y: The Last Man (which looks interesting) and Preacher (I need to buy the whole first one and catch up on the storyline) as well as The Sandman (Ditto to Preacher). The store I went to did not have Bone, I'm pretty sure I'll just pick it up online. Thanks again!

I'm so glad you liked Fables. As I said, it's currently my favorite comic. And for the most part, the quality's been up to par throughout all five books I've read so far. (Bigby's teh awesomest evar :))

Arise thread! I thought about starting a new comics thread but figured we already had this one.

I just want to talk about comics.

I've renewed my interest in many different titles lately and am starting the long, expensive road to catching up. Lately one run that has got me glued to the pages is Iron Man. I have collected trades of most of the current run (Extremis, Civil War, Director of SHIELD) and I am just floored with how damn entertaining it is. Iron Man is very close to beating out Wolverine as the best read in Marvel for me.

I also read Vol 1 and 2 of Wolverine: Enemy of the State, which was also ten kinds of badass. I'm also halfway through Vol 1 of Ultimates 2. It's not as action packed but the writing is still fantastic.

On the fringes I also grabbed Vol. 1 of Ultimate Iron Man, A Paul Dini trade of Batman called Death and the City, and I'm slowly trying to collect the Post-Resurrection Green Arrow runs. Cap that off with the hard back of Serenity and The Dark Tower and I've got myself a fat little stack in the last few months.

So has anybody else been reading? Hemidal? Fedaykin? Cartoonin?

I recently finished Vol 2 of Sandman, then I went and bought Vol 3 and finished that.

I'm trying to get my hands on Dark Tower #4 before I start to read that stack.

My wife gave me the Ultimate Sandman Vol 1 for Xmas, and i was planning to dive into it this weekend. One of the things that always put me a little off the series was the coloring, and they've redone it, to better effect i think. It's also a slightly larger format, so it's gorgeous.

I used to be a huge comic fan... I even was doing several comic book podcasts in 2005-2006 (Around Comics, Comic Timing, Comic Geek Speak) at various times.

I dunno... I'm through with comics. I think CIVIL WAR was the last straw for me. Beautiful art, nonsensical story... lots of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

That said, there are a bare minimum of titles I somewhat keep up with...

THOR -- I grew up on Walt Simonson's awesome Thor run, but haven't been too up on the character in the last decade or so. I'm also not a huge fan of JMS, but his take on Thor in this new relaunch has been sort of interesting. Kind of like Gaiman's AMERICAN GODS.

HATE ANNUAL 7/APOCALYPSE NERD -- I loves me some Pete Bagge (oh, the irony!). Always been a big fan, and I still keep up with his small output of titles. AN is kind of amusing, as it does a humorous look at the fallout from WWIII (where North Korea nuked Seattle) and how one inept nerd (i.e. US) is dealing with the crisis.

BOOSTER GOLD -- I didn't read 52, so I have no idea what's going on... and I've kind of already soured on this book, but Booster Gold was one of my favorite heroes simply because he was a NEW hero back in the mid 80's when I started collecting comics. I got in at #1 and there was a special bond formed. This new series is a mash-up of 52 and Quantum Leap...

KNIGHTS OF THE DINNER TABLE -- still reading (since issue #2) and still enjoying this story of a group of D&D (er, HackMaster) playing nerds in Indiana. The art is ridiculously simplistic, but the humor is genuine if you've ever "played a role" while eating doritos and drinking Mt. Dew.

LEGION OF SUPERHEROES -- Not sure about this one yet, but controversial figure Jim Shooter recently took over writing duties (as of #37) and so I bought a copy. I enjoyed Shooter's work at Marvel and with Valiant back in the day. Not sure if he can it into our "modern" era of storytelling, but I'm going to give it a shot.

SCOTT PILGRIM -- manga sized volumes, manga influenced art, lots of goofy video game references, and an overall FUN read.

Other than that, I've been only buying DC SHOWCASE PRESENTS volumes these last months.

I have become pretty infatuated with Scott Pilgrim recently. It's a manga style, video game logic infused slacker love story set in Toronto. There are 4 (of a total 6) volumes out now and I highly recommend them.

DFKQ wrote:

I have become pretty infatuated with Scott Pilgrim recently. It's a manga style, video game logic infused slacker love story set in Toronto. There are 4 (of a total 6) volumes out now and I highly recommend them.

too slow

I'm in the middle of Sandman Vol 7. I've been reading trades of 100 Bullets (I think I'm on volume 6) and Fables (just finished volume 3). I have mainly been buying trades lately, I have too many long boxes taking up too much room (anyone looking for something I might be able to clear out?). The only monthly issues I pick up regularly are Astonishing X-Men (when it comes out) and The Brave and the Bold. I'm looking forward to some of the new John Byrne stuff coming out from IDW and his JLA Classified arc with Roger Stern.

I recently got back into comics due to two things:
1) Gunslinger: Born
and
B) a new comic shop opened in my town.

Since there were no comic shops within an hour's drive of my domicile, I hadn't picked anything up since getting into Garth Ennis' stuff in Preacher/Just a Pilgrim. I picked up a couple of issues of Marvel Knights Punisher when Ennis was doing those but it was just random stuff.

Now I've gotten hooked on the old X titles again thanks to the Messiah Complex series, Walking Dead, Ultimate Iron Man, The Zombie, and a few random titles that I can't bring to mind right now. I actually went through all the boxes in my attic pulled out all my old comics, bagged, boarded and organized them in long boxes. I felt like a kid again.

I think I liked Civil War for a very cynical reason. Before the last few months I was pretty indifferent about Iron Man as a character. But, I've always felt animosity towards Captain America. His character has always come off as kind of smug to me. A little pompous and a little self righteous. His kind of dogma always seemed close to fanaticism. So a comic run where he is beaten physically, mentally, and then emotionally by a team lead by the beacon of redemption and change and progress in the Marvel Universe, it just struck a cord with me that this is the way it should be. Putting away hollow nationalism for an objective view at how to be better as a people, which will then naturally reflect being better as a country.

I don't know. Maybe I read too much into it. And like you said, it's beautiful.

Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:

So has anybody else been reading? Hemidal? Fedaykin? Cartoonin?

Damn, called out and everything. I have to say that because I missed Wizard World last year, I didn't get to stockpile my trades. I've been reading Thomas Cahill's Hinges of History book, so I haven't even re-read any trades. I will agree that Enemy of the State is badass. Part 1 is way better than part 2, though. Also, a big shout out to Bone: One Volume collection, if you haven't read it you should.

DMZ is a great read, at least the first half dozen issues or so. Always have a soft spot for The Authority. I re-read that at least twice a year. The newer stuff isn't that good, I'll admit. I read all of Civil War and it was crap. Captain America is still excellent.

Hmm, at little stream of consciousness there. I think I'll put the breaks on until I can gather my thoughts a little better.

Apparently, Hemidal and I must now fight in the middle of the city.

Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:

I think I liked Civil War for a very cynical reason. Before the last few months I was pretty indifferent about Iron Man as a character. But, I've always felt animosity towards Captain America. His character has always come off as kind of smug to me. A little pompous and a little self righteous. His kind of dogma always seemed close to fanaticism. So a comic run where he is beaten physically, mentally, and then emotionally by a team lead by the beacon of redemption and change and progress in the Marvel Universe, it just struck a cord with me that this is the way it should be. Putting away hollow nationalism for an objective view at how to be better as a people, which will then naturally reflect being better as a country.

I don't know. Maybe I read too much into it. And like you said, it's beautiful.

As a long time Captain American fan and reader, I think your impression is totally off base. Part of why I hated CW was that this Cap WASN'T the Cap that I've read... this wasn't the same character I've known for 20 years (and for that matter, this wasn't the Tony Stark I've been reading, either).

Far from being a "fascist," Cap has always stood for the American people... NOT the American government. In fact, he's given up the costume on at least two occasions when he felt his conscience wouldn't let him do what the Govt. was asking him/telling him to do.

The biggest thing that annoyed me about CW, though, was that we've spent 40+ years reading comics and accepting certain "conventions" that were all a part of the whole "suspension of disbelief" thing. In comics, yes, a pair of glasses are a disguise... in comics, the Hulk "smashes" city blocks worth of buildings, but no one gets hurt. Suddenly, CW wants to pretend that this ridiculous world has "realism" attached.

spoilers wrote:

[color=white] Pitting heroes against other heroes, having the "Stark" side doing all this crazy crap with clones and putting people into concentration camps and using psychopathic villains to hunt down "renegade" heroes... as a long time fan, it rubbed me entirely the wrong way.

[/color]

I can understand why newer readers would love it, though... lots of action, lots of earth shattering events, etc. I'm not saying you are stupid for liking it or anything... hell, lots of people who I respect enjoyed the series... it just wasn't for me, I guess.

I guess it's the difference in seeing Captain America in other people's work, and actually keeping up with the character.

I forgot to add after my CA hate rant, that in the Ultimates I think Cap is great. He's one of my favorite characters. Having read so little of the original CA series I can't even truthfully say that the Ultimates Cap is all that different. I think Civil War might have taken Captain America and made him a scape goat for a lot of the problems I have with society and government. That's probably why I was drawn to it, and I can see people being pissed that a long loved character of theirs got a really sh*tty role in what was supposed to be a pinnacle moment for the universe.

Chiggie Von Richthofen wrote:

I can see people being pissed that a long loved character of theirs got a really sh*tty role in what was supposed to be a pinnacle moment for the universe.

Spoilers wrote:

[color=white]...and killing him off didn't help much, either :)

[/color]

I must say that I *DO* find it kind of amusing that you see Iron Man as the "shining beacon" of hope... nearly everyone I know who read the story saw him being portrayed as the over-the-top villain of the piece.

I have little to no respect for Marvel EIC Joe Quesada and his story ideas. If you want a perfect example of what's WRONG with Marvel, google the debate between Quesada and JMS over the Spider-Man "One More Day" story.