"Happy Holidays" vs. Christmas

oldmanscene24, don't read too much into my comments. By that, I mean I'm not targetting you in what I'm saying. I was just getting a peeve off my chest and you certainly do not seem like the type of person I would have a problem with. I acknowledge that I'm somewhat of a crotchedy snob about some things, religion in particular gets me riled up. Speaking about it in a forum such as this, yeah we're all here to bounce ideas off each other and read different viewpoints. If we were all the same, how boring would that be. Let's just say I have some extremely pushy family members and the fact that they follow the same book as you (though not necessarily in the same way) causes me to reach likely unfair preconceptions.

Chi rho looks like an X with a P on top of it.

Surely you mean it looks like a chi with a rho on top of it?

Maybe it should be required reading in both secular and religious schools that Christ was not in fact born in the month of December, but somewhere in the summer months of the Gregorian calendar? And that the December 25th date was some scheme devised by Christianity to convert the Solstice worshipping pagans? So, on the balance, the December 25th Christmas is no more about Jesus than it is Santa, since neither figure really has any direct connection to that date save what some wonk said hundreds of years ago.

While it is true that the date of Christmas as we now know it was once the celebration of the new sun, and for short periods of time in the 15th and 16th centuries actually outlawed by certain Puritanical groups and even 2 kings of England for its connection to paganistic holidays and sometimes hedonistic celebrations, a fourth century bishop once said:
"We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of Him who made it."
(For the record, the word "pagan" here is not necessarily a derogatory term.)

As for the "direct connection to the date" that Rat Boy was speaking about, in Luke 1:5 it says:
Luke 1:5
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
(NAS)
This "division of Abijah" served in the modern day September-October months of the year. During this time Luke says an angel visited Zach and told him his elderly wife would bear a son. Then in Luke 1:26 it says:
Luke 1:26
26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee, called Nazareth,
(NAS)
This is the visit to Mary telling her about her pregnancy. Six months from Sept.-Oct. would be March-April. Nine months later Jesus was born putting his birth around December. Not necessarily Dec.25, but if you have to pick a date to celebrate it, why not do it at a time when all the local Wal-Marts in the greater Mediterranean Sea area are selling party supplies?

Some scholars say that the fact the shepherds were "in the fields, keeping watch over their flocks by night" would suggest a summer date. Since Bethlehem was the breeding place for most of the sacrificial lambs for Jerusalem (interesting parallel here) the sheep were kept in these fields all year round.

Most "Christians" (I dislike that word because it encompasses so many people that don't necessarily believe what is in the Bible or act accordingly) view Christmas in a positive light because it draws attention to the one Person that they believe has paid the penalty for men's sin and through Him made a way to God that is based purely on acceptance of that forgiveness and not a myriad of works to try to earn favor with God. (which by the way separates "Christianity" from every other faith)

I am glad that I am not in 8th grade English with the task of diagramming the train wrecks I'd like to call sentences written above.
More Holy Day Info

bagga, I apologize for the delayed response, but I had connectivity issues at home that weren't resolved until last night, at which point I was sick of sitting in front of the computer.

Anyway, there is no harm done. I did not take your comments personally nor feel like I was the target of any kind of attack. As you can probably tell, this is an issue that I am passionate about also. There are people who take the Christian message (or any other message, for that matter) and try to drive it home with a sledge hammer. Unfortunately, family members are often the most guilty of that, myself included at times. It is, however, done out of love just not always communicated that way.

Again, all is well, no hard feelings, etc. Chalupas for everyone!

*my original response was much better, but my aforementioned internet issues occurred as I was trying to post it.:p

See, here's the thing. "Sharing" one's faith is akin to forcing it upon someone else.

So when someone of Muslim faith says "As-salam alaika", they are forcing their faith on you?

Or when someone says "God bless" after you sneeze, are they forcing their faith on you?

I disagree with your arguement Bagga, but I agree that no government in the U.S. should be saying "Merry Christmas", "Happy Chaunukah", or implying that they support any religion over any other. So "Happy Holidays" fits just right.

Why is it that when Christians defend their faith, we are labeled as being intolerant.

Defending your faith is a lot different than thinking your government should be celebrating and acknowledging your faith above all others. I would like to keep government and religion seperate, especially a government that is supposed to allow all religions to be treated equally.

On the other hand, NYC mayor right here always participates in St Patrick's day parade, and attends lighting of Christmas Tree, as well as Chinese New Year festivities and what not. Because that's our community here. Wouldn't it make sense for the President of USA to reach out to his own community (that is, USA) in a similar way? Even if by sending a freaking postcard?

Me, I don't see any issues here. Christians are taxpayers too, if it comes to that. Let him send X-mas and Channukah and Ramadan and Divali and Sakura festival and Seollar and what have you. We in USA should be freaking proud we have so many traditions here.

Gorilla.800.lbs wrote:

On the other hand, NYC mayor right here always participates in St Patrick's day parade, and attends lighting of Christmas Tree, as well as Chinese New Year festivities and what not. Because that's our community here. Wouldn't it make sense for the President of USA to reach out to his own community (that is, USA) in a similar way? Even if by sending a freaking postcard?

Me, I don't see any issues here. Christians are taxpayers too, if it comes to that. Let him send X-mas and Channukah and Ramadan and Divali and Sakura festival and Seollar and what have you. We in USA should be freaking proud we have so many traditions here.

We should be yes, but a large percentage of the time it does not seem so, and a large part of that are christian groups pulling this kind of crap.

Gorrila wrote:

Me, I don't see any issues here. Christians are taxpayers too, if it comes to that. Let him send X-mas and Channukah and Ramadan and Divali and Sakura festival and Seollar and what have you. We in USA should be freaking proud we have so many traditions here.

I have no problem with them sending custom cards to different people - that would be a solution, but no doubt it would be more complicated and expensive then a generic "Happy Holidays" card. Calling this PC run amok is silly. It's just more financially sound to do it this way.

In fact, we should praise Bush for his fiscal responsibility here - cause he sure isn't doing it anywhere else!

Mayfield wrote:
See, here's the thing. "Sharing" one's faith is akin to forcing it upon someone else.

So when someone of Muslim faith says "As-salam alaika", they are forcing their faith on you?

Or when someone says "God bless" after you sneeze, are they forcing their faith on you?

In a way, yes they are. Like I said, it's not "in-your-face." However, the way I really read "sharing" was more along the lines of "I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior. Would you like to know more about Him?" To which I would reply, "No. I would not like to know more, and I resent the assumption that you think I'm too stupid to learn about it on my own. I don't need your 'help.' If I want to learn about a lifestyle, I'll seek the information myself. Your knowledge of your lifestyle is of no concern to me."

baggachipz wrote:

In a way, yes they are. Like I said, it's not "in-your-face." However, the way I really read "sharing" was more along the lines of "I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior. Would you like to know more about Him?" To which I would reply, "No. I would not like to know more, and I resent the assumption that you think I'm too stupid to learn about it on my own. I don't need your 'help.' If I want to learn about a lifestyle, I'll seek the information myself. Your knowledge of your lifestyle is of no concern to me."

Out of curiosity, is this much different then when an unfortunate co-worker gets an hour long lecture on the merits of Babylon 5? Cause I've been known to do that

To some extent, we all try and share our beliefs, sometimes more forcefully then appropriate. Is what bothers you the annoyance of having beliefs tossed at you, or rather just having religious beliefs hurled in your direction? Would you be as angry if I approached you and said "I think Babylon 5 is the best show EV4R! Would you like to know about it?" (again, this is less hyperbole then I should maybe admit...)

I am not being critical, because I share your irritation - I just wonder about the root cause?

The difference (hopefully) between Babylon 5 and religion is that people are a LOT more pushy about religion; specifically because it affects your life for ETERNITY!! (DUN dun dun...) If I was harassed with the same frequency and intensity about Babylon 5 as I was about religion, I would despise it just as much. As far as I know, no wars killing millions have erupted over Babylon 5. And while a Babylon 5 fan may be smug in their self-perceived superiority in science-fiction taste, I doubt they could even touch the smug attitudes I encounter on a regular basis due to religion.

bagga wrote:

And while a Babylon 5 fan may be smug in their self-perceived superiority in science-fiction taste, I doubt they could even touch the smug attitudes I encounter on a regular basis due to religion.

Are you sure about that? It reminds me of this one episode of Babylon 5... Would you like to know more about it?

<<>>

baggachipz wrote:

As far as I know, no wars killing millions have erupted over Babylon 5.

Actually, the Shadow War was largely centered around Babylon 5 as a nexus of conflict, and millions died even as a result of attacks on single worlds, so the grand total for the entire conflict must be well beyond that figure.

...

What?

And let's not forget the mass suicides after Legend of the Rangers aired.

Oh. Right. Uh, that reminds me, there's something I've got to do.

And B5 gets a branch-off suicide cult. If that isn't enough for any religion, I don't know what is!

Sooo... what type of card would I send the faithful servants of the FSM...

One featuring a pirate stripper, I should think.

Also, as a DO YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE? to the evil plot to steal christmas, there's this gem.

Amazingly, it seems like it isn't satire.

Rat Boy wrote:

And let's not forget the mass suicides after Legend of the Rangers aired.

And now I need another keyboard..

jmdanny wrote:

Sooo... what type of card would I send the faithful servants of the FSM...

Silly man, FSM is science not religion!

Mayfield wrote:
jmdanny wrote:

Sooo... what type of card would I send the faithful servants of the FSM...

Silly man, FSM is science not religion!

Seriously. Didn't you see the chart?

IMAGE(http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg)

Pred, the data in your chart is waaaaay off! I know at least 18 pirates lower Manhattan alone...

I thought all pirates were based in pittsburgh?

They must have completely eroded the ozone layer in that state by now.

My boss and I have decided that we're going to protest people saying "Happy New Year" too. It's the calendar implimented by Pope Gregory XIII, based on a modified Julian calendar. Therefore, it bears the trappings of religion in general and Catholicism in specific, so we're offended. Plus, it's offensive to Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, pagans, Discordians, people of Chinese, Armenian, and Celtic descent, and anyone who doesn't follow the Vatican's oppresive calendrical (not a word, I know) regime.

We're hoping it will catch on and someone will realize how silly this whole "Happy Holidays = evil!" thing is.

My boss and I have decided that we're going to protest people saying "Happy New Year" too. It's the calendar implimented by Pope Gregory XIII, based on a modified Julian calendar.

Brilliant!