$4 a gallon for gas

Just paid 3 bucks a gallon and that burns my ass. Oil companies must be loving this crap. Thier profits are going to go through the roof.

LockAndLoad wrote:

It went from 2.55 to 3.09 here in Ohio. Thank God I have a short commute. I have a coworker with a 90 minute roundtrip commute that costs him $60 a week to drive... of course he has an SUV but still, this is getting ridiculous.

I do not think it helped that the talking heads in Columbus were spouting about the gas increase with every breath. I am fairly certain that there is an axiom lying around here somewhere that pretty much states you make your own reality, so keep your mouth shut. Or something like that...

It's $3.11 near me. WooHoo.

Shotgunphil wrote:

Just paid 3 bucks a gallon and that burns my ass. Oil companies must be loving this crap. Thier profits are going to go through the roof.

I hear you. I realize we are a capitalisitc society, but why are the Oil companies not considered a public utility? They should only make enough profit to continue business and research. It will be interesting to see how the automotive, airline and shipping companies react and the pressure (if any) they put on Oil Baron Bush, err I mean the Government.

This blows.

Radio just reported prices hitting $5.57 per gallon in Atlanta.

$3.30ish for unleaded around here. Was $2.80 yesterday.

Seems like a good time to post this:

GasBuddy

And here you go LockAndLoad:

ColumbusGasPrices

Let's invade Canada and take theirs. They gots allot.

Yeah, there's serious usurious price gouging going on at the pump right now. That said, I'm looking at hybrid vehicles too. I actually need a truck/SUV because I do shows and need to transport tables, displays, product, as well as hauling tons of raw materials, plus boy and massive dog. A small car just won't work for what I need, and I can't afford to have two separate vehicles, one for work and one for grocery runs.

But fuel costs are already to drastically impact my raw materials costs. For instance, the price of one of my most commonly used essential oils has tripled because it has to be transported halfway across the globe. There's only so much cost that I can absorb before I have to raise prices...and there's only so much that people are going to be willing to pay before they decide the wallyland cheap crap is good enough.

On top of that, because of fuel costs, I'm forgoing some bigger shows that are far enough away that the fuel cost would kill the potential for profit. And I'm not alone. Multiply my experience times the sheer number of small businesses that don't get fleet tax rebates, or can't negotiate fuel contracts. Plus contractors, independent 1099 employees, frankly...the whole thing is just a mess.

I'm annoyed that after the 70's there was not a huge R&D push for real fuel economy in cars. I'm angry that there are tax rebates for vehicles that get less than 10 miles to the gallon. I can't believe that the government, with its vast fleet of diesel, hasn't done more to push biodiesel solutions, to the best of my knowledge, there's only a couple of biodiesel stations in the entire country. But mostly, I'm furious at the usurious profit takers, and I hope their spleens burst with the bile that they create in the souls of hard working Americans.

We're all going to hell!!! just read that website..

I'm stocking up on Shotguns and ammo... christ my wife says I'm turning into George from Six Feet Under...

next I'll be building a bomb shelter

On the drive home, the average was about 2.99-3.29 a gallon. This morning the scene was like 2.60-2.79. Thats a 30 cent spike and its nothing. I read this on an AP report today:

BRAD FOSS AP Business Writer wrote:

Meantime, wholesale gasoline suppliers have begun limiting the amount of fuel they sell to retailers in certain markets in order to make sure they do not take delivery of more fuel than they actually need.

The wholesalers are unsure that their supply is enough. We are in trouble. Every bit that gas goes up is like money being sucked out of our GDP. Time to grab my recession boots...

TheGameguru wrote:

We're all going to hell!!! just read that website..

I'm reading it now. I think I've still got my collection of Civil Defense brochures from the 50's somewhere around here. one of them has instruction son how to build and stock a shelter. After I'm done with it, I'll send it to you.

Meh.
As long as my insurance doesn't go up!
Paying for gas gives me something tangible in return, and if it weren't worth it I wouldn't buy it.
Sure, I don't like being raped at the pumps, but complaining won't do anything constructive because instead of going after the people at fault for this horrendous abuse of a shortage, the government is silently patting itself on the back for making its friends some money and using this to push environmentally unconscious agendas under the guise of 'consumer-relief' all while spoon feeding the oil industry billions of dollars in subsidies and tax breaks. Bought and Paid for. Nothing will change that short of a revolution. And that will not happen because we have TV. So suck it up, pay your dollar and take your ride!

[/cynical]

Our critical infrastructures are in the hands of the lowest bidder/ highest lobbyer. Sleep tight!

duckideva wrote:

I can't believe that the government, with its vast fleet of diesel, hasn't done more to push biodiesel solutions, to the best of my knowledge, there's only a couple of biodiesel stations in the entire country.

This is a great idea, but unfortunately there's not enough corn or soybeans grown in the country to fulfill the demand. Hell, I don't think there's enough grown on the planet. The same (logically) applies to 85% ethanol.

On a related note, I haven't heard enough clamoring for nuclear power! It won't run my car (yet...) but it would at least keep my A/C running!

I like this:

IMAGE(http://www.miamigasprices.com/images/charts/xchart98.png?ii=4956)

Yes gas prices went through the roof in Atlanta today with long gas lines which brings back memories of the 70's (disco.....).

Some jackass believed something someone wrote on the internet (although it came out "my relative from Conoco says....") about how Atlanta was going to run out of gas forever and people left work early to fill up their cars.

Not me...I like to live dangerously...

Yeah, there's serious usurious price gouging going on at the pump right now.

Raising pricies in response to a spike in demand is not "usurious price gouging", it is Economics 101. When demand shifts, and supply stays fixed, prices rise in response. I don't like paying $3+ per gallon of gas any more than anyone else does, but that is what happens when people are stupid.

Here is reality: price controls will equal shortages, just like they did in the 70's. Thankfully, Bush doesn't appear to be as stupid as Carter, so that looks unlikely.

We can't produce more oil, because environmental fruitcakes go into a hysterical frenzy at the thought of new drilling. The U.S. Geological Survey estimates there are about 10 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. The amount of land proposed for oil drilling is less than 2,000 acres, less than one-half of one percent of that land, which will never been seen or visited by 99.99% of all Americans. But there are caribu. Can't mess with the caribu...

We haven't built a new oil refinery in close to 30 years because of these same extremists. So we can't drill in Alaska, we can't drill in new places in the Gulf, we can't drill off the coast of California.

We can't build new nuclear power plants or new hydroelectric dams. Why? You got it...environmental fruitcakes again.

What do said fruitcakes offer as a solution? Higher gas milage of course. But one of the ways that higher milage standards get met in the short term is lighter materials used in the construction of those vehicles, which results in more injuries and deaths in car accidents. But hey, who cares if more people die in car accidents as long as those caribu aren't disturbed in Alaska, right?

You want lower gas prices? Build more refineries, allow for new drilling, and allow the construction of proven energy sources, like hydroelectric and nuclear that will reduce the amount of oil needed to produce electricity.

If you'll excuse me, I have to go stand in line to buy gas now, because the people in Atlanta are morons that believe Internet rumors...

The rumor here in Charleston is that we received our last shipment of gas today... from what I hear there isn't another tanker scheduled to come in... Sounds like hooey to me, though

Damn... $3.29 here in Racine, WI... this is a jump of 60 cents overnight... it was $2.69 at lunch yesterday, but I didn't stop because the place was packed... so much for that. I have a quarter tank left... good thing I have a less than a mile commute to work. I'd ride my bike if it werent for the fact that there is a massive 45 degree (or so) hill on the way.

gotta love those people who take advantage of a national crisis for monetary gain. Thats right up there with those asshats looting in N.O.

There is no reason why significant steps to reduce our infrastructures reliance on oil havent been taken. Everyone wants to talk about cars. Christ, people can live without cars.

There's a whole lot of reasons. Money. What we _should_ be running our cars on is what they were designed originally to run on. Biodiesel derived from hemp, but god forbid someone should smoke a joint and get all... you know... hungry!
Seriously, though, there's plenty of feasible alternatives, but follow the money...
where is it?
Yep, petrochemical companies doing what they've been doing.
So, in alterna-fuel, what's the corporate drive? How do you hold up your part of the bargain with shareholders? Good luck with that one. Alternates will come when there's a real crisis, and they will come from the petrochemical companies. When it's more profitable than oil.

And, as was mentioned, yeah, I could live without a car, but I couldn't provide for my family. The US in general is not like Europe. Generally our public transportation is utter crap, with few exceptions. We're not cramped into small geography and squeezed in with our history. We have lots of room and we've spread out to use it. That means farther to drive to work/home/groceries/etc.

SwampYankee wrote:

Let's invade Canada and take theirs. They gots allot.

I think it's all shale, which is a real pain in the ass to recover, and not really worth it.

JohnnyMoJo wrote:
Yeah, there's serious usurious price gouging going on at the pump right now.

We can't produce more oil, because environmental fruitcakes go into a hysterical frenzy at the thought of new drilling. The U.S. Geological Survey estimates there are about 10 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. The amount of land proposed for oil drilling is less than 2,000 acres, less than one-half of one percent of that land, which will never been seen or visited by 99.99% of all Americans. But there are caribu. Can't mess with the caribu...

I'm not sure you quite grasp the concept behind the national parks system.

We haven't built a new oil refinery in close to 30 years because of these same extremists.

No, sir, that is not correct. We haven't build new refineries because if you build a new refinery, it has to meet more stringent clean air standards than if you keep your old one running. So, instead of building new refineries that burn cleaner, oil companies choose to keep bandaid-ing their old ones. I wonder if that bit BP in the butt in Houston this last month?

But hey, who cares if more people die in car accidents as long as those caribu aren't disturbed in Alaska, right?

Ah, I get it. Anyone that wants to preserve the national park system and the decreasingly pristine lands and history they represent are automaticall the same people that call for responsibility and accountability from vehicle manufacturers? Ok.

You want lower gas prices? Build more refineries,

That's up to the oil companies that don't want to adhere to current clean air laws.

allow for new drilling,

You might not care if my grandchildren will ever get to see things like the Grand Canyon, Old Faithful, or Polar Bears, but I do. There's a reason the national parks were created, there's a reason they are supposed to be kept as pure as possible, and it's not just to be a thorn in petrochemical company sides, and it's not just to make you pay more for gas. The oil problems are not about clean air, national/state parks, or even environmentalists. They are about shortsightedness, cronyism(no, older than that. no, older. older still.), and greed. The fact that some people stand up to the "system" and say "No, you won't take that away," doesn't make them fruitcakes any more than your little tirade makes you a dittohead.

and allow the construction of proven energy sources, like hydroelectric and nuclear that will reduce the amount of oil needed to produce electricity.

BWAAAAAAahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Come on. Where's the money in that? Not long term, but this quarter? Where's the quarterly increase in profits? Where the dividend increases?

It will be interesting to see how the automotive, airline and shipping companies react and the pressure (if any) they put on Oil Baron Bush, err I mean the Government.

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "we need education in the obvious more than investigation of the obscure." I think that applies here.

"Price gouging" is one of those emotionally powerful but economically meaningless expressions that refers to a situation where prices rise to a significantly higher level that what people are used to, typically as a response to some external event.

This leads to the pertinent question, which is 'What are prices for?'

Prices are not arbitrarily chosen numbers. Prices that you are accustomed to are not necessarily any more 'fair' than prices that are higher or lower. Prices serve two purposes: to allow sellers to recoup costs and they force buyers to restrict how much they demand.

When either supply or demand changes, prices change in response. In Atlanta today, people unreasonably thought there was going to be a shortage of gasoline and/or that prices would rise in the future. Both of these things led to an increase in demand. Neither of these things created an increase in supply. As a result of this spike in demand, prices went up. This was not set by evil corporations rubbing their hands in speculative glee, this was caused by local managers looking out their windows at lines forming at the pumps. They raised their prices in response to the demand. If they were going to sell out of gasoline, why not make extra money in the process. So in parts of Atlanta, gas prices hit $6/gallon. Some people paid that. Others went to other gas stations that might be a bit farther away and paid $3.50/gallon. In each case, the supplier sold his product at a price the market would bear.

When they were selling gas for $.70/gallon a few years ago, that was all the market would bear at that time. What changed? Why supply and demand. Global demand for oil has outpaced global supply. And speculators, thinking that the price of oil would continue to rise contributed to that demand by buying up oil to store for sale later.

In short, the new prices make as much economic sense under the new conditions as the old prices made under the old conditions.

Interestingly enough, one of the typical economic responses to higher prices is an increase in supply, which, when demand remains constant, leads to...you guessed it...lower prices.

To say that the current price of gasoline is usurious is logically flawed. It is merely an inconvenient operation of a capitalist economy. It is best remedied through the methods I described a few posts above.

No, sir, that is not correct. We haven't build new refineries because if you build a new refinery, it has to meet more stringent clean air standards than if you keep your old one running.

No, that pretty much confirms my point. It is cost prohibitive to build a new refinery because of environmental laws. Like I said.

You might not care if my grandchildren will ever get to see things like the Grand Canyon, Old Faithful, or Polar Bears, but I do.

Then I hope you enjoy paying $5/gallon for gas.

The oil problems are not about clean air, national/state parks, or even environmentalists. They are about shortsightedness, cronyism(no, older than that. no, older. older still.), and greed. The fact that some people stand up to the "system" and say "No, you won't take that away," doesn't make them fruitcakes any more than your little tirade makes you a dittohead.

A very interesting charge. I agree there is shortsightedness. I would just argue that the shortsightedness is on the part of the environmentalists.

By the way, do you plan to visit ANWR? Do you know a lot of people that are planning there vacations there? How about into the Gulf? Can you explain to me how the Grand Canyon is going to be ruined by drilling in the tiny patch of Alaska or in the Gulf? How exactly are you children affected?

See the thing that drives me nuts about environmental whackos is that they like to impose costs on other people, usually at no cost to themselves. These idealistic-sounding fruitcakes are typically the same people that spout delightful rhetoric about compassion for the poor. What they typically choose to ignore is that their ideologies and the restrictive laws that arise from them typically impose the highest burden on lower income people.

Guess what? I don't like the idea of paying $5/gallon for gas, but I can. And I won't miss a meal, or even have to cut back on the ludicrous amount of games that I buy. But all those poor people that the Left claim to care about are going to have an even harder time making ends meet.

Just out of curiousity, which liberal ideology takes precedence here? Compassion for the poor, or environmental preservation?

JohnnyMoJo wrote:

The U.S. Geological Survey estimates there are about 10 billion barrels of recoverable oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

*cough*

Edwin wrote:

1. According of the Department of Energy, drilling inANWR
will only lower oil prices by less than fifty cents;

2. ANWR contains 10 billion barrels of oil - or about the
amount the US consumes in a little more than a year.

3. As with all oil projects, ANWR will take about 10 years to
come online. Once it does, its production will peak at
875,000 barrels per day - but not till the year 2025. By
then the US is projected to need a whopping 35 million
barrels per day while the world is projected to need 120
million barrels per day.

I bolded the last part to highlight what I'd hope you consider to be the most important part. ANWR certainly isn't a short-term solution by any stretch of the imagination, and it doesn't appear to be much of a long-term solution, either. 10 billion total barrels is slightly more than a drop in the bucket today and would barely be a drop in an ocean when it was brought up to full capacity; it'd be like trying to suck up spilt Pepsi off the counter with a straw.

JohnnyMoJo wrote:

"Price gouging" is one of those emotionally powerful but economically meaningless expressions that refers to a situation where prices rise to a significantly higher level that what people are used to, typically as a response to some external event.

If we were talking solely about the $3 to $4 a gallon nationwide average, that'd be one thing, but since the $7 in Atlanta story has been making the rounds, I think that particular example would best exemplify the "price gouging" that many here speak of. The national price spike is at least tied to a readily apparent change in supply, but Atlanta doesn't appear motivated on any direct news on supply. If it were, every gas station that depended on what should be coming out of the Gulf Coast area would have raised their prices to that level by now.

Ok guys its time to start shelling out the cash for nuke-powered cars.

If we were talking solely about the $3 to $4 a gallon nationwide average, that'd be one thing, but since the $7 in Atlanta story has been making the rounds, I think that particular example would best exemplify the "price gouging" that many here speak of. The national price spike is at least tied to a readily apparent change in supply, but Atlanta doesn't appear motivated on any direct news on supply.

Nope, it had little to do with the supply. It had a lot to do with the demand, which was a localized occurance. Locally, people thought there was going to be a shortage, which was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gas stations all over town are actually out of gas. And in these local conditions, the local price of gas makes perfect sense. Not gouging at all. No one forced anyone to buy gas at $6/gallon. The fact that the average price in Atlanta is floating at around $3.50/gallon indicates that people have plenty of choices.

Currently, the U.S. is the third-largest producer of oil, producing 8.7 million barrels a day. Drilling in ANWR would increase that production by 10%, moving us into second place (Russia is currently #2, producing about 9.4M barrels a day). Yeah, I don't see how increasing supply would have an impact.

I will say, that on reading more about this, I noticed something I had missed earlier. Bush is only loaning oil out of the SPR, not selling it. This is a huge mistake. Loaning does nothing to impact supply, and in fact reduces supply in the medium term because it would have to be repaid with interest. It also does nothing to discourage the biggest current problem, which is the oil speculation market.

Bush needs to be willing to sell the full 30M barrels he is allowed to sell by law. If he were to sell a few million barrels of oil at random times over the next few weeks. It would reduce oil speculation and lower prices. When George Bush Sr. merely threatened to sell SPR oil, the price of oil fell from $32.25 to $21.48 that same day.

Selling oil from the SPR, not loaning it, is the right move here.

Off to P&C

shihonage wrote:

Ok guys its time to start shelling out the cash for nuke-powered cars.

oooooh, we could bring back the Egyptian mode of traveling on litters! "Ptahhotep, peel me some grapes and bring me the pole boys, I feel the need for an outing..."

Hey, I think I just solved the oil crisis and the immigration crisis. Yay, Me! DuckiDeva for President. This time, why not elect the Real Quack?

BUSH IS AGAINST CAPITALISM!

"I think there ought to be zero tolerance of people breaking the law during an emergency such as this, whether it be looting, or price-gouging at the gasoline pump or taking advantage of charitable giving, or insurance fraud,"

President Bush in an interview with "Good Morning America."

This is apparently in response to 3+ dollar gas-prices.

JohnnyMoJo, I disagree with a lot of what you said out of principle. I agree that gas price hikes can be justified rationally because we all have the right to make a quick buck. But I disagree because at this point in time, in THIS circumstance is not the proper time to exercise capitalism. It seems the president agrees with me.

You indicated that the term "Price Gouging" was emotionally charged, yet you blame the "environmental fruitcakes" of tying the hands of the oil giants with their insistent nagging and granola fed protests. (paraphrasing, the quotes are italicized) I believe labelling people that disagree with you as fruitcakes has the same emotional bludgeon as attributing the enourmous price hikes in gas to simple opportunistic greed.

Get the people safe, get the area stabilized, THEN worry about making your buck.