A place to post and discuss news related to the recent events in Israel, including the Hamas/Islamic Jihad incursion and repercussions.
There appears a new movement among younger Democrats which posits that not only does Israel not matter, it is a force of Western Imperialism and our support for it is necessarily evil.
The two positions are irreconcilable.
I don't know that I agree about there being a full-blown movement regarding Israel being more of a problem than an ally, but I could see it becoming one. I really hope that we get a President Harris, and that she does a lot of work separating Netanyahu from Israel. Netanyahu's Israel is an antagonistic force in the middle East, and his clawing at power no matter the cost in (non-Israeli) lives is going to continue to make it hard to support the country. There isn't any reason to think that Israel as a state can't exist, and exist mostly peacefully, if that's what the people want. I just don't know if that's the case. America should be able to support an Israel that doesn't commit genocide, or ethnic cleansing, or forced relocations, and I am OK with us withholding aid if they do.
I'm okay with withholding aid, too. I think, personally, we should treat Israel as no more and no less than any other ally. When they cross a moral line, we need to come up with a response that's more than "30 day pause" in shipments.
But at the same time, Israel has invested *at least* hundreds of millions since the 50's in covert and overt influence operations in the US, intended to prevent us ever taking serious steps to cut them off. That's a heck of a force to overcome. It will require Executive and Congressional action that we've never seen before.
I also want to say that my earlier post was a reaction to people saying how terrible Dems are, how much they hate any kind of slow change or compromise, how useless they've been... Then making a weak statement that they will show up for the election. That is, essentially, disheartening and frustrating to see over and over and over. If they are putting this out there among their friends, I fear an awful lot of Progressives and socially conscious types will take it to heart and simply not vote out of moral despair or outrage. And that's just as bad as Trumpism.
We need to, at a minimum, while acknowledging how big the challenges are, keep presenting a positive attitude to keep people engaged and hopeful. Yes, change *is* possible, but only if we commit to it. If people feel like the only reason to vote is that we are face with an utter freaking disaster if we lose, then if we win, they will go back to a more idealistic goal-seeking attitude, not realizing that *we* also have to work through the problems to get there. I've seen Dems do this so often - rally in a crisis, get the immediate win, and then fall back into "no, that's not enough for me, give me everything I want now or I'm just gonna sit on my hands and let you compromisers spin in the wind".
We need to break that cycle and part of that is remembering that change is hard and takes a long struggle. We need to stay optimistic or that struggle will collapse. Again.
As a Canadian, the issue is that yes, Israel is a democratic country in the middle east, and they have 100% a right to exist, but they have also slowly but steadily been expanding their territory by evicting Palestinians from theirs. There is also the issue that, for many people, criticizing the actions of the State of Israel is considered equivalent to antisemitism.
There is also the issue that, for many people, criticizing the actions of the State of Israel is considered equivalent to antisemitism.
That's due to the covert and overt influence ops Robear mentioned. It's not just focused on the US, but all of the western countries. Getting any criticism of Israel to be considered antisemitism has been something they've been successfully pushing for awhile.
Doesn't the cynical Netanyahu play to keep the war going so he won't end up in jail mirror our own American political dilemma? I wish we had some anti-Netanyahu Israelis in this forum to chime in to tell us if they think his approach is warranted given their trauma from Oct 7. That's not to say they would be right or wrong. Just wish we had more voices here. Anyone have other forums they find constructive? Does Reddit have a loving and understanding pro-Israel/pro-Palestine thread?
I wish we had some anti-Netanyahu Israelis in this forum to chime in to tell us if they think his approach is warranted given their trauma from Oct 7. That's not to say they would be right or wrong. Just wish we had more voices here.
The one Israeli poster we had here got dog piled out a few years ago.
Montalban wrote:I wish we had some anti-Netanyahu Israelis in this forum to chime in to tell us if they think his approach is warranted given their trauma from Oct 7. That's not to say they would be right or wrong. Just wish we had more voices here.
The one Israeli poster we had here got dog piled out a few years ago.
I suspect he would not have been the anti-Netanyahu pro-Palestine voice Montalban suggested. 
Israel Is Buying Google Ads to Discredit the UN’s Top Gaza Aid Agency
Back In mid-January, Mara Kronenfeld was googling the name of the nonprofit she runs, which raises money in the US on behalf of the leading humanitarian aid provider in Gaza. Atop the search results for her organization—UNRWA USA, partner to the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA)—she saw a surprising ad. It read like a promo from the UN agency, but the link directed to an Israeli government website. Kronenfeld says she had found the beginnings of a months-long online advertising campaign by Israel to discredit and defund UNRWA.
Long article that I only posted the first paragraph
I think colonialism gets a bad rap.
EDIT: F**K NEVERMIND. REPOSTED MY OWN VIDEO FROM LITERALLY TWO POSTS PRIOR.
....I can't imagine. Who would allow this to happen?
....I can't imagine. Who would allow this to happen?
I believe we've litigated this question several times in this thread already.
Aid agency says convoy members killed by Israeli airstrike were a local escort
An aid agency whose convoy was hit by an Israeli airstrike on Thursday has said that the four men killed were local community members who had asked to serve as an escort for the convoy.
The four men were the only casualties from the strike, which hit the lead vehicle in which they were travelling. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) described them as “armed assailants” who had hijacked the convoy.
The incident has highlighted the dangers being faced daily by humanitarian workers trying to deliver life-saving assistance in Gaza, under the threat of looting and assault by armed gangs and desperate civilians, while risking coming under fire from Israeli forces on the ground or drones patrolling the skies.
The convoy was organised by a US-based NGO, Anera, which has been serving refugees and victims of violence in the region for more than 50 years. It had partnered with a Dubai-based logistics company, Move One, to organise the convoy bringing medical supplies and fuel to an Emirati-run hospital in the southernmost city of Rafah.
The convoy was on the way to the hospital when the lead vehicle was hit by an apparent drone strike.
Its route had been coordinated in advance with the IDF, under a deconfliction process intended to prevent aid vehicles from being bombed. But, according to an Anera statement on Friday, shortly after the convoy had crossed into Gaza, four men from the local community who had worked with Move One before “stepped forward and requested to take command of the leading vehicle, citing concern that the route was unsafe and at risk of being looted”.
In an earlier statement, Anera had described the Palestinian men as Move One employees, but on Friday it characterised them as “four community members with experience in previous missions and engagement in community security with Move One”.
“The four community members were neither vetted nor coordinated in advance, and Israeli authorities allege that the lead car was carrying numerous weapons,” the new statement said, without addressing the allegation that the men were armed.
“Anera and Move One are in close communication and are working together to determine all the facts,” it said, adding: “The Israeli airstrike was carried out without any prior warning or communication.”
Anera’s president and chief executive, Sean Carroll, said: “According to all the information we have, this is a case of partners on the ground endeavouring to deliver aid successfully. This should not come at the cost of people’s lives.”
An IDF statement on Thursday confirmed that the route had been agreed, but claimed that “during the convoy’s movement, a number of armed assailants seized control of the vehicle in the front of the convoy [a Jeep] and began to lead it”.
It added: “After the takeover and further verification that a precise strike on the armed assailants’ vehicle can be carried out, a strike was conducted.
“No damage was caused to the other vehicles in the convoy and it reached its destination as planned. The strike on the armed assailants removed the threat of them seizing control over the humanitarian convoy.”
The IDF claimed that it had contacted Anera after the incident and that the aid organisation had “verified that all of the convoy’s organisation members and humanitarian aid were safe and reached their destination as planned”.
Anera confirmed that the convoy did reach the hospital, but said only one person travelling in the convoy had been an Anera employee.
The airstrike came hours after Israeli soldiers opened fire on a World Food Programme (WFP) vehicle clearly marked with UN insignia and travelling in a convoy of two.
The WFP said the vehicle was hit by at least 10 bullets as it approached an IDF checkpoint at Wadi Gaza. The vehicle was armoured with reinforced glass and no one inside was injured, but the agency temporarily suspended the movement of its staff around Gaza.
At a UN security council meeting on the humanitarian situation in Gaza, the US deputy ambassador, Robert Wood, expressed alarm at the shooting of a WFP vehicle and said Israel has told Washington that an initial review suggested the shooting was “a result of a communication error” between military units.
On 23 July, the UN children welfare and protection agency, Unicef, said two of its vehicles were hit with live ammunition while waiting at an army-designated holding area in Gaza.
On 1 April, the IDF killed seven aid workers in a drone attack on a convoy run by the World Central Kitchen charity.
The IDF later admitted to “grave errors” by its officers, firing two of them, and conceded that it had been informed of the planned convoy in advance but said the information had not been passed down to operational units.
Robear wrote:....I can't imagine. Who would allow this to happen?
I believe we've litigated this question several times in this thread already.
Just to specify, this is not directed at you specifically Robear, but to all of us in the US.
Disease and war are forms of population control.
I get it. I just... I can't fathom it. To me, Israel has changed so much in my lifetime. It's hard to understand.
It's just a preview of what we could be like if Trump were more competent and less concerned with grifting everyone.
Protests in Israel and strike called amid eruption of outrage over Gaza war
Tens of thousands of Israelis took to the streets on Sunday night and a general strike was called for the country amid an eruption of public outrage over the government’s handling of the war in Gaza after the deaths of six hostages being held deep underground by Hamas.
The discovery of the hostages’ bodies in Gaza over the weekend threatened to bring tensions over the war to a boiling point. An estimated 100,000 protested in Tel Aviv while others demonstrated in Jerusalem as pressure on the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to reach a ceasefire deal to bring the remaining hostages home reached a new peak.
The first general strike since March last year is expected to bring large parts of Israel’s economy to a halt on Monday. Government and municipal offices were due to close, as well as schools and many private businesses. Israel’s international airport, Ben Gurion, is due to shut down at 8am local time (0600 BST) for an unknown period.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the bodies of Carmel Gat, Hersh Goldberg-Polin, Eden Yerushalmi, Alexander Lobanov, Almog Sarusi and Ori Danino were found in tunnels “dozens of metres” underground during fighting in Rafah in southern Gaza. The six were seized during Hamas’s 7 October attacks on Israel.
Israel’s health ministry said a forensic examination of the bodies showed the hostages had been “murdered by Hamas terrorists in a number of shots at close range” 48 to 72 hours before they were found.
However, the findings pointing to Hamas executions did little to deflect widespread fury towards Netanyahu and his rightwing coalition for failing to agree a US-backed hostages-for-peace deal with Hamas, which has been on the negotiating table since late May.
In a statement mourning the six hostages, the prime minister blamed Hamas for refusing to accept the deal.
“Whoever murders abductees does not want a deal,” Netanyahu said. “We, for our part, did not let up. The Israeli government is committed, and I am personally committed, to continue striving for a deal that will return all our abductees and guarantee our security and existence.”
He can blame Hamas all he wants, and they did do the killings. But when Israelis are blaming him for not being willing to work for their release, in order to keep his position... Well, he's in a very precarious position.
He can blame Hamas all he wants, and they did do the killings. But when Israelis are blaming him for not being willing to work for their release, in order to keep his position... Well, he's in a very precarious position.
Well...Israel says Hamas did the killings. While it's entirely possible and even very likely, I don't think I'd trust Israel officials if they said the sky was blue without having an actual independent examination back them up.
If people tried that in the US, they'd be arrested, fired from their jobs, kicked out of school, and branded antisemites.
Netanyahu not doing enough to free Gaza hostages, says Biden
That's a welcome change. Hopefully there's actual follow through.
Netanyahu is now discovering the truth of counter-insurgency work. The dominant military power cannot use traditional force and motivators to control the situation. And he's running scared, but he's also defiant, and not changing his positions, because that's always worked for him in the past. Meanwhile, the latest protests are an order of magnitude larger than the previous ones, before and during the war. Hundreds of thousands have come out to protest Netanyahu's self-serving inaction. And yet, a lot of the country still believes that Netanyahu can bring the situation to "total victory", in the face of every national experience over the last century.
HAMAS's armed wing now says that when Israeli troop activity occurs near hostages, they will just kill them and leave the bodies behind. This is probably what happened in this last rescue attempt, and Netanyahu has no answer to it. It also stokes the split in Israeli society, with many willing to give somewhat to get hostages back, while others take a "Gaza delenda est" approach to the future state of Palestine. The only thing Netanyahu is willing to do to appease HAMAS is to release more prisoners. He won't abandon the border strip with Egypt (militarily sound, in my opinion, but given Israel's current behaviors, absolutely likely to lead to abuse of Gaza civilians), and I can't see him worrying about those civilians at all. Currently more than half of the buildings in Gaza, probably 60% or more, have been leveled, many of them in reprisal actions thinly disguised as "tactical maneuvering".
The obvious question is what happens when HAMAS runs out of hostages? Does Netanyahu simply declare "Job done!" and pull out, allowing Gaza to be rebuilt? Somehow, I don't think so. But the alternatives are likely to be even more brutal than the war itself. I believe that Netanyahu and his cronies are looking to create a slow-burn conflict that will allow a sort of genocide - leave Gaza (and the West Bank), or die in the next few years as military actions and the restriction of supplies and economic assets combine to strangle Palestinians in their communities.
It's horrifying, but I suspect this is Netanyahu's future state, with him as the permanent war leader.
Netanyahu doesn't care about the hostages. He is using the conflict as a pretext to annex Palestinian territory in Gaza AND the West Bank for ultraorthodox psychopaths. It is and always has been a war of annihilation.
What if... the gov't revved up Uncle Bibi's Land-Grantin' Machine and started handing out slices of Palestine like cake?
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