A place to post and discuss news related to the recent events in Israel, including the Hamas/Islamic Jihad incursion and repercussions.
Hm.
We’re in an absurd situation where both Hamas and Israeli officials agree that Netanyahu is blocking Biden’s ceasefire proposal, Netanyahu publicly rejects key elements of it, but Biden and Blinken continue to insist that Netanyahu supports it and Hamas is blocking it. What.
Blinken ends latest Mideast visit without a cease-fire, warning 'time is of the essence'
JERUSALEM (AP) — U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken ended his ninth visit to the Middle East since the war in Gaza began without securing any major breakthrough for a cease-fire deal, warning on Tuesday that “time is of the essence” even as Hamas and Israel signaled that challenges remain.
After meetings in fellow mediating countries Egypt and Qatar, Blinken said that because Israel has accepted a proposal to bridge gaps with the militant group, the focus turns to doing everything possible to “get Hamas on board” and ensure both sides agree to key details on implementation.
“Our message is simple. It’s clear and it’s urgent," he told reporters before leaving Qatar. "We need to get a cease-fire and hostage agreement over the finish line, and we need to do it now. Time is of the essence.”
There has been added urgency after the recent targeted killings of militant leaders of Hamas and Hezbollah in Iran and Lebanon, both attributed to Israel, and vows of retaliation that have sparked fears of a wider regional war.
Few details have been released about the so-called bridging proposal put forth by the U.S., Egypt and Qatar. Blinken said it is “very clear on the schedule and the locations of (Israeli military) withdrawals from Gaza.”
Hamas earlier Tuesday called the latest proposal a reversal of what it had agreed to, accusing the U.S. of acquiescing to new conditions from Israel. There was no immediate U.S. response to that.
Blinken’s comments on ending his latest Israel-Hamas peace mission were notably bare of the optimism that Biden administration officials expressed going into his trip, and earlier.
The upbeat tone through much of the spring and summer — with U.S. officials at times describing a cease-fire and hostage deal as nearer than ever — reflected necessary messaging, at least in part, said Jonathan Panikoff, director of the Scowcroft Middle East Security Initiative at the Atlantic Council’s Middle East Program.
“If they don’t project optimism then it won’t create ... even the potential for sufficient momentum to keep things going," Panikoff said.
Americans have little alternative to continuing to push Israel and Hamas to agree to a negotiated end to fighting, but it’s fundamentally about Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, who helped mastermind the Oct. 7 attacks, Panikoff said. And they are “the two people that have been, frankly, most skeptical from the beginning” about making peace.
Netanyahu, meanwhile, met with right-wing groups of families of fallen soldiers and hostages in Gaza. The groups, which oppose a cease-fire deal, said he told them Israel will not abandon two strategic corridors in Gaza whose control has been an obstacle in the talks. Netanyahu's office did not comment on their account.
A senior U.S. official rejected as “totally untrue” that Netanyahu had told Blinken that Israel would never leave the Philadelphi and Netzarim corridors. Such statements are “not constructive to getting a cease-fire deal across the finish line,” the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss Blinken’s private diplomatic talks.
Blinken's meetings in Egypt, which borders Gaza, and in Qatar, which hosts some Hamas leaders in exile, came a day after he met Netanyahu. Wide gaps appeared to remain between Israel and Hamas, though angry statements often serve as pressure tactics during negotiations.
Both men have seen their political standing improve at home, as Israelis turn their attention from the war in Gaza to a threatened wider conflict with Iran and Hezbollah, and as Hamas further consolidates Sinwar's leadership of the group. That's lessened the pressure on both to close a deal, Panikoff said.
And while the U.S. could try restricting arms sales to Israel to push it to end the war with Hamas, Panikoff argued that risks making Netanyahu dig in his heels further, instead.
Netanyahu’s meeting with the families came as Israel’s military said it recovered the bodies of six hostages taken in Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack that started the war, bringing fresh grief for many Israelis who have long pressed Netanyahu to agree to a cease-fire that would bring remaining hostages home.
New protests were held Tuesday. “The longer they’re there, the more body bags we get,” said one protester, Adi Israeli, in Tel Aviv.
Israel's military said it recovered the six bodies in an overnight operation in southern Gaza, saying they were killed when troops were operating in Khan Younis. Hamas says some captives have been killed in Israeli airstrikes, though returning hostages have talked about difficult conditions, including lack of food or medications.
The recovery of the remains also is a blow to Hamas, which hopes to exchange hostages for Palestinian prisoners, an Israeli withdrawal and a lasting cease-fire.
The military said it had identified the remains of Chaim Perry, 80; Yoram Metzger, 80; Avraham Munder, 79; Alexander Dancyg, 76; Nadav Popplewell, 51; and Yagev Buchshtav, 35.
Kibbutz Nir Oz, the farming community where Munder was among around 80 residents seized, said he died after "months of physical and mental torture.” Israeli authorities previously determined the other five were dead.
Hamas is still believed to be holding around 110 hostages captured during the Oct. 7 attacks, when militants killed some 1,200 people, mostly civilians. Israeli authorities estimate around a third are dead. Over 100 other hostages were released during last year's cease-fire in exchange for Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.
Israel's retaliatory offensive has killed over 40,000 Palestinians, according to Gaza's Health Ministry, which does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in its count. The war has caused widespread destruction and forced the vast majority of Gaza's 2.3 million residents to flee their homes, often multiple times. Aid groups fear the outbreak of polio and other diseases.
An Israeli airstrike Tuesday killed at least 12 people at a school-turned-shelter in Gaza City. The Palestinian Civil Defense, first responders operating under the Hamas-run government, said around 700 people had been sheltering at the Mustafa Hafez school. Israel’s military said the strike targeted Hamas militants who had set up a command center there.
“We don’t know where to go … or where to shelter our children,” said Um Khalil Abu Agwa, a displaced woman.
An Israeli airstrike in Deir al-Balah hit people walking down the street and seven were killed, including a woman and two children, according to an Associated Press journalist who counted the bodies. Another airstrike in central Gaza killed five children and their mother, according to Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, where an AP journalist counted the bodies.
Palestinians displaced by recent Israeli evacuation orders crowded into already teeming areas. One child in Deir al-Balah slept on cardboard as insects flew around his face.
“Are they going to dig the ground and dump us there, or put us on a boat and throw us in the sea? I don’t know,” said one man, Abu Shady Afana.
___
Lee reported from el-Alamein, Egypt, and Doha, Qatar. Associated Press reporters Wafaa Shurafa in Deir al-Balah, Gaza Strip, Samy Magdy in Cairo, Ellen Knickmeyer in Washington and Melanie Lidman in Jerusalem contributed to this report.
___
Follow AP’s war coverage at https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war
I can believe it. Bibi knows Trump will let him bomb the place to even more dust than it is, where Kamala, whether it's far enough or not, will likely push far, far harder than Biden for a ceasefire and negotiations.
Trump's son-in-law is one of Netanyahu's besties, as well.
Time has been "of the essence" for nearly a godsdamned year now. Piss off with your hypocrisy, Blinken.
Key mediator Egypt expresses skepticism about the Gaza cease-fire proposal as more details emerge
Key mediator Egypt expressed skepticism Wednesday about the proposal meant to bridge gaps in cease-fire talks between Israel and Hamas as more details emerged a day before negotiations were expected to resume in Cairo.
The challenges around the so-called bridging proposal appeared to undermine the optimism for an imminent agreement that U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken carried into his latest Mideast visit this week.
Diplomatic efforts have redoubled as fears grow of a wider regional war after the recent targeted killings of leaders of the militant Hamas and Hezbollah groups, both blamed on Israel, and threats of retaliation.
President Joe Biden spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday, the White House said, without immediately giving details on what was said.
Officials in Egypt, in its unique role as both a mediator and affected party since it borders Gaza, told The Associated Press that Hamas won’t agree to the bridging proposal for a number of reasons — ones in addition to the long-held wariness over whether a deal would truly remove Israeli forces from Gaza and end the war.
The Uncommitted movement requested to have a vetted Palestinian speaker give a vetted speech.
As of Tuesday night, the Uncommitted delegates were still hopeful. Alawieh told me they’d managed to recruit a total of 210 delegates to the cause of ceasefire. The energy from their movement was palpable. In McCormick Place and the United Center, it was relatively common to see people in keffiyehs emblazoned with the tag “Democrats for Palestinian Rights,” and they’d be surrounded by other curious convention-goers or media. When we last spoke, Alawieh was still hopeful that one of the speakers they’d submitted would be approved. “We haven’t gotten a no, yet.” The DNC confirmed to me there is not yet a no, but there is not yet a yes—I was told that “there was no update.”
As of Day 3 of the DNC, the Palestinian permission to narrate was still under consideration.
EDIT:
The DNC appears to have said "No."
israelis get to share their suffering at the dnc, and they get to speak about the suffering of palestinians, but palestinians don't get to speak for themselves. only one group of people is deemed worthy of being heard.
I mean... hard to argue with.
Not for me. I don't' like many, many of the Ds policies but I would give my left nut to make sure Rs don't get in power with their current crop of psychopaths.
Can I vote for the one that will stop directly funding genocide? Is that bus available?
Can I vote for the one that will stop directly funding genocide? Is that bus available?
No. You're not going to get either major political party in America to ditch Israel, even when they deserve it. Just like you're not going to get either major political party to get special interest money out of Congress, or to implement ranked-choice voting, or to make an immediate and drastic effort to halt climate change before it's far too late (like mandating all vehicles must be electric by 2026, curtailing airline travel, and shuttering all coal and natural gas plants).
And since even if you don't vote you're going to end up with either Option D or Option R, you might as well cut your losses and focus on the differences between them and decide which one you hate less.
Going to tap my new sign:
“less likely to kill you” might not be the best qualifier right now.
I mean, technically that sign is advocating for Trump because any killing on his part is entirely hypothetical at this point, whereas the current administration is directly responsible for up to half a million civilian deaths by some estimates.
unless it’s implying that only american lives count towards the killing, which is also problematic.
seems like a not great sign.
Listen, I don’t like Trump, I’ll vote for whoever isn’t Trump. Frankly whoever isn’t a Republican, but this “shut up and just vote you stupid leftists” messaging needs to die in a fire. It’s patronizing, tone-policing bullshit that scolds people for wanting their political representation to just do better.
I'm still not sure why the tranche of Republicans they trotted out were trustworthy infront of a hot mic but a single elected Palestinian Democrat was not. Those tricksy Arabs, I guess.
Because liberal politicians will never fail to trip over themselves in their rush to reconcile with Republicans.
I mean, technically that sign is advocating for Trump because any killing on his part is entirely hypothetical at this point...
I personally thought that part was aimed at the population that wasn't a cis white hetero male, but if you want to get technical, you can always point to the thousands upon thousands of people who probably died due to him treating COVID like just another case of the flu.
Occasionally I wonder if I'm reading the same content as others.
I feel like I'm missing context because when I read that sign I see three main points that I will paraphrase thusly:
The options for a Leftist suck.
Being killed sucks.
Leftists should vote pragmatically for the option that sucks less and can be leveraged for at least some gains towards less suck overall.
If any of those things point to advocating for Trump, even technically, then I will need it explained to me in actual words. I don't see it.
Edit: and to be clear, I also don't see it advocating for Harris (I posted Biden first. I'm old!), even technically. It advocates for voting less suck. The specifics are left up to the reader.
Look. The *only* way Progressives get *anything* at this point is to avoid getting R's into office. That's it. That's the first step. If you don't vote Harris and a Dem slate, you make that less likely.
This is what I don't get. I keep saying it. Politics is the art of the *possible*, not the aspirational or the ideal. And once we get a good set of leaders, policies will start to change, in the right direction. It will take time, it will be incremental, but that's the *only* way to proceed to change in our system.
Anything else helps helps The Donald. Suck it up and punch the ballot and advocate hard for change with the much more amenable leadership that will result if we succeed.
It's a marathon, not a sprint. I don't get all I want. You don't get all you want. Even the big issues - especially the big issues - change only incrementally and with difficulty. Expect to fight for change *after* the election.
The difference is, with the Dems, you get a decent chance of having that change happen over the next decade. Without them in power, Progressives are powerless.
I look at it this way: I have to pick a warehouse to work in. In one warehouse, I get chained to my fellow progressives and have to be on permanent latrine duty with daily beatings. In the other warehouse, I get put with my fellow progressives in a basement office with unpleasant work to do, but we're not chained up and if I suck up to the right people maybe I can advocate for the warehouse to start addressing its crumbling infrastructure before it collapses on us all. If I don't pick either warehouse, someone else is going to choose one for me anyway because I have to work in one of them (and not working isn't an option).
And of course, regardless of which warehouse I work in, Israel will remain an apartheid state committing genocide of Palestinians.
“less likely to kill you” might not be the best qualifier right now.
I mean, technically that sign is advocating for Trump because any killing on his part is entirely hypothetical at this point, whereas the current administration is directly responsible for up to half a million civilian deaths by some estimates.
unless it’s implying that only american lives count towards the killing, which is also problematic.
seems like a not great sign.
Listen, I don’t like Trump, I’ll vote for whoever isn’t Trump. Frankly whoever isn’t a Republican, but this “shut up and just vote you stupid leftists” messaging needs to die in a fire. It’s patronizing, tone-policing bullshit that scolds people for wanting their political representation to just do better.
It's more a point I make when people get so discouraged that they want to disengage from things altogether. Also, it was late and I was a little deep in the sake.
Politics is the art of the *possible*, not the aspirational or the ideal.
I think just about everyone understands this now, they just are tired of being told what is possible. It would be so much better if addressing climate change in a meaningful way was possible, but instead we just get some money spent to get us 20% towards a goal we should have hit by 2020.
I totally understand the frustration with the Democratic party; they've got loads of problems, and some of those problems are considered strengths!! I live in MA, so my Senators are both pretty Liberal. I would love to see either or both of them put forward some plans (maybe even Bills!) that help the middle class. I know both of them have talked about ways to get more money from the 1%. For all the support they have in state, there are 98 other Senators, 49 of whom want nothing more than zero percent taxes and every non-military expense purged. Of the remaining Senators, plenty of them would prefer to cut services than tax the rich more, and they have voters at home who support that stance. There is a lot of conservative and Conservative thought in this country, and it's very easy to forget that when we live with or associate with more liberal and Liberally minded people.
Robear wrote:Politics is the art of the *possible*, not the aspirational or the ideal.
I think just about everyone understands this now, they just are tired of being told what is possible. It would be so much better if addressing climate change in a meaningful way was possible, but instead we just get some money spent to get us 20% towards a goal we should have hit by 2020.
I totally understand the frustration with the Democratic party; they've got loads of problems, and some of those problems are considered strengths!! I live in MA, so my Senators are both pretty Liberal. I would love to see either or both of them put forward some plans (maybe even Bills!) that help the middle class. I know both of them have talked about ways to get more money from the 1%. For all the support they have in state, there are 98 other Senators, 49 of whom want nothing more than zero percent taxes and every non-military expense purged. Of the remaining Senators, plenty of them would prefer to cut services than tax the rich more, and they have voters at home who support that stance. There is a lot of conservative and Conservative thought in this country, and it's very easy to forget that when we live with or associate with more liberal and Liberally minded people.
We can debate whether or not that was "enough", but what is not in debate is that he did what he could.
Look. The *only* way Progressives get *anything* at this point is to avoid getting R's into office. That's it. That's the first step. If you don't vote Harris and a Dem slate, you make that less likely.
This is what I don't get. I keep saying it. Politics is the art of the *possible*, not the aspirational or the ideal. And once we get a good set of leaders, policies will start to change, in the right direction. It will take time, it will be incremental, but that's the *only* way to proceed to change in our system.
Anything else helps helps The Donald. Suck it up and punch the ballot and advocate hard for change with the much more amenable leadership that will result if we succeed.
It's a marathon, not a sprint. I don't get all I want. You don't get all you want. Even the big issues - especially the big issues - change only incrementally and with difficulty. Expect to fight for change *after* the election.
The difference is, with the Dems, you get a decent chance of having that change happen over the next decade. Without them in power, Progressives are powerless.
Many of us are old enough to remember similar conversations in the 90's around (pick your topic of injustice). I'll choose gay rights.
That was a topic that was verboten and there was no future where gay marriage would be allowed. Over time, and with crazy amounts of hard work, the left side of the aisle eventually, with many delays and setbacks, eventually won the war.
While that war/marathon played out, there were many injustices, wrongs, suffering and even deaths.
I can look on that time period and loathe how long it took for things to change (as well as my own part in resisting the change).
I can look on that time and respect the bravery of those in the vanguard pushing/fighting for change.
I can also look on that time and marvel how far we have come.
Life is complex. It is hard. Shit be nuanced.
And justice will come. Provided our side of things does the hard work to make it happen.
ETA: Justice achieved is NOT the same as justice secured. It has to be protected, over the long haul, otherwise the regressive side will come back to sweep away the change. Yet another reason to keep doing the hard work.
We can debate whether or not that was "enough", but what is not in debate is that he did what he could.
100% agreed.
The difference is, with the Dems, you get a decent chance of having that change happen over the next decade. Without them in power, Progressives are powerless.
You'll get no disagreement from me! Which is why I want them to do better.
EDIT: Just. Slightly. Better.
Exclusive: Joe Biden Appoints Hawkish Official To Lead Israel Policy At State Department
The Biden administration on Friday tapped Mira Resnick, an official deeply involved in weapons transfers to Israel, for a new role shaping policy at the State Department on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, according to two people familiar with the move.
The decision surprised some foreign policy professionals and was seen as particularly alarming by skeptics of President Joe Biden’s near-total backing of Israel’s devastating ongoing military campaign in Gaza.
Resnick previously worked at the State Department’s Political-Military Affairs bureau, which has approved billions in arms shipments to Israel during the Gaza war despite concerns from lawmakers and human rights groups that Israel is violating U.S. and international law in its use of American weaponry.
“Assigning [Resnick] ... reflects a doubling down on the administration’s determination to continue to provide unconditional material support for Israel’s genocidal campaign against civilians in Gaza,” argued Annelle Sheline, a former State Department official who quit the agency in protest over Biden’s approach earlier this year.
A State Department spokesperson declined to comment for this story.
As the new deputy assistant secretary for Israeli-Palestinian affairs in the department’s Middle East office, Resnick is replacing Andrew Miller, an official who left the State Department this summer and was known by fellow U.S. officials to be wary of Biden’s overwhelming support for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
“Miller was known as someone who understood the nuances of the situation and did his best to try to push back on the administration’s determination to facilitate genocide. Whereas DAS Resnick will eagerly support it,” Sheline said.
The Biden administration’s move comes as hopes falter for U.S.-led negotiations seeking a deal between Israel and Hamas, the Gaza-based Palestinian militant group that began this episode of fighting with an attack inside Israel that killed hundreds of civilians. The talks are meant to secure a cease-fire, the release of more than 100 hostages held by Hamas (including eight Americans) and a flood of humanitarian aid for Gaza, where the U.S.-backed Israeli offensive has killed more than 40,000 people and fueled mass displacement and hunger.
Biden administration officials have repeatedly said they believe the time is ripe for a cease-fire. But they have resisted calls from critics to try to pressure Netanyahu to reach an agreement by suggesting American military support could be in question if the war continues.
The administration’s push for a bargain has intensified as Vice President Kamala Harris has launched her presidential campaign and sought to address deep frustration among some Democrats over Biden’s strategy.
“Now is the time to get a hostage deal and a cease-fire deal done,” Harris said on Thursday night as she accepted the 2024 Democratic presidential nomination. She affirmed Israel’s right to defend itself and her view that conditions for Palestinians in Gaza are “heartbreaking.”
Look. The *only* way Progressives get *anything* at this point is to avoid getting R's into office. That's it. That's the first step. If you don't vote Harris and a Dem slate, you make that less likely.
This is what I don't get. I keep saying it. Politics is the art of the *possible*, not the aspirational or the ideal.
I think the thing you're not getting is that we already know that. We are extremely used to liberals disappointing us and still demanding our vote. And they'll get it, because the alternative is still Trump. None of us here are saying we will not be voting for Harris over this, or any of the myriad other ways liberals disappoint us. We will be voting for her, but we will continue to complain the whole time.
This time somehow the art of the possible means the Dems will play nice with anti-choice Republicans, but not a twety-year member of their own party. It's disgraceful.
The Middle Eastern conflict has its own problematic presentation in Australia. But at least our government issued over 2,000 refugee visas to Palestinians fleeing the genocide. It's small but it's a start.
I think we can despair easily if we look too far to the ideal political unity which simply exists as a fictional concept.
Progress can be small and incremental yet achieve amazing results over time.
I look to my state and its major investment in public transit. Lot of it is toll road but a lot of it is also metro. The toll roads are amazing with transit time savings even if they cost you a left nut and a kidney. The metro extensions are incredible and can save a large number of commuters 20-30 minutes in each direction. Once paid for, these investments will leave an enduring benefit to the city. This is in spite of successive "less than ideal" governments.
I think the worst thing would be to give up on the pursuit of good governance and let the extremists win.
It's more a point I make when people get so discouraged that they want to disengage from things altogether. Also, it was late and I was a little deep in the sake.
Sigh. I hear you. I just... Keep this stuff in mind when you are hopeless. A partial cup of dirty water is better than a full one, you know? And eventually, you can change what the machine gives out. But you have to get there first. Anything that moves in that direction is a good thing to support, even if at first it's festooned with things that need to change, badly.
And Harris is not that bad. I suspect her Israel policy will be stronger than Biden's, but I'm not hopeful (and not one of you has said you read the damn book that explains why they have so much power in American society). Suffice to say, Biden's and others policy is not something that they came up with; they've been maneuvered into it since the Fifties in multiple ways by the very people who support Netanyahu (and are supported by his cronies).
Progress can be small and incremental yet achieve amazing results over time.
This is incredibly true, but it's also very difficult to accept in light of the suffering incurred while awaiting that progress.
Human history in a nutshell right there.
[Edit]modified that first sentence to better clarify my perspective[/edit]
Bfgp wrote:Progress can be small and incremental yet achieve amazing results over time.
This is incredibly true, but it's also very difficult to accept for those who are suffering while awaiting that progress.
Human history in a nutshell right there.
It's only true for those who had the luxury of time to wait for those incremental changes to add up.
I'm always frustrated with the situation we keep seeing here in the forum: we all agree things are messed up; we all wish there was a stronger force for bigger fixes; we all are going to support the party that will either improve things 2% or will not make things worse over the party that will make things 25%-100% worse. Someone points out that 2% better isn't 4% better, or 100% better; then someone reminds everyone that 2% better is better than 25% worse; then people get angry about having that pointed out. The repeating nature of this pattern isn't actually what frustrates me, though. I get frustrated because people's motivations are good, and it never comes across that way. When you say you want things to be improved by something other than the littlest margin, I understand what you mean; I don't need to assume you think I only want a marginal improvement. When you say that one party is meh but the other one is terrible, I don't need to assume that you think I didn't know that.
The people posting here are engaged and thoughtful about the situation we're in. I don't want people who are just reading to think that there is no point because of in-fighting. You don't need to stop asking for more from elected officials, but stop making it sound like small improvements are the same as enjoying a bad situation. You don't need to stop reminding people that any change is better than back-tracking, but stop making it sound like people don't know that. Give each other the benefit of the doubt, we mostly agree here.
I would like to give the benefit of the doubt, but all too often I get the feeling the argument is more "2% might as well be nothing".
Also, I feel like there is an emerging fundamental difference in principle that is becoming a wider and more serious problem. That being on whether or not the existence of Israel is a foreign policy priority at all.
The traditional Democratic position has, since the 1950's, been that the existence of the state of Israel is important, that the historical persecution of the Jews demands that they have a place of self determination, and that the example of a liberal democracy in the Middle East provides a counter example to petrodespotism. In recent years, the position has been complicated by Netanyahu and the unarguable admission that the state has lost its way, but despite it, Israel remains important for historical, geopolitical, and economic reasons.
There appears a new movement among younger Democrats which posits that not only does Israel not matter, it is a force of Western Imperialism and our support for it is necessarily evil.
The two positions are irreconcilable.
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