A place to post and discuss news related to the recent events in Israel, including the Hamas/Islamic Jihad incursion and repercussions.
I have to keep reminding folks I know that of all the arguments for Israeli statehood, the biblical one is the least compelling and should be entirely disregarded if ever brought up.
I have to keep reminding folks I know that of all the arguments for Israeli statehood, the biblical one is the least compelling and should be entirely disregarded if ever brought up.
I understand what you’re saying and on the one hand I agree. On the other hand, the Old Testament is a story of how the more brutal and savage you are, the more successful you are and the more God favors you. That seems like a pretty good argument for Israeli expansion.
To your point though, I’ve yet to find someone arguing that the genocides of the Old Testament should be replicated…..even as they attempt to replicate the genocides of the Old Testament.
Anyone who makes a moral or political claim that they insist should be universally respected because of some inherent religious truth should never be regarded as a serious person. Not in this day and age. They must be more sophisticated than that.
edit: if the very best someone can come up with is "because god says so", it tells me that they have not spent any effort considering how their actions affect the welfare of others. They have outsourced their empathy and humanity. And they should not be regarded as anything but an amoral simpleton.
Genocides are like abortions, the only moral ones are mine.
I have, in the past, been pretty sympathetic for the Israeli cause because (perhaps naively or romantically) felt that, as imperfect as it was, a secular, liberal, western democracy in the Middle East was both good and important. It was important to have an ally in the region that was ideologically aligned with our interests even if it had significant inconsistencies. And criticize all you like, but the democracy of Israel under Begin or Olmert was measurably more free than that of regimes with which we have allied like that of Chun Doo-hwan in South Korea, Reza Palavi in Iran, or Chiang Kai-shek in Taiwan -- let alone anyone else in the region.
I am no longer convinced that Israel represents that anymore. I am unconvinced it is a democratic society with an independent judiciary that affords constitutional protections for ethnic, religious, or political minorities. I am increasingly seeing it as a society devolving into a religious fundamentalist, apartheid dictatorship. It is, in a sense, becoming more and more like Saudi Arabia.
And whereas Saudi Arabia commands our attention because of strategic necessity, I am more and more puzzled what we are getting out of our relationship with Israel. More particularly, I am having a hard time justifying the nature and extent of our relationship with Israel. Does their "right to exist" equate to an American obligation to endanger our own policies, principles, and well being to protect it? Does this obligation obviate our right to set conditions for our participation in their atrocities?
The behavior of the Netanyahu government has made it impossible to continue to believe.
From what I've heard, Israel is a key strategic ally for the US, more so than Saudi Arabia and most other countries. To the extent that the US may speak about humanitarian issues regarding Gaza, but will never threaten to pull their military support if Israel does not change their approach.
Maybe someone here knows more about the geopolitical considerations behind this inseparable relationship.
Some highlights from a Vox article:
The US has continued its unconditional aid to Israel, which has totaled $158 billion (not adjusted for inflation) since World War II — more than the US has given to any other nation.
What’s key about the ’67 War was Israel defeated the Arabs hands down in six days with absolutely no American military assistance,” said Joel Beinin, a professor of Middle East history at Stanford University. “What that said to the United States was, ‘These guys are good. We are in a mess in Vietnam. Let’s be connected to them.’ And things developed gradually over time.
The military-industrial surveillance complexes of both countries are very tightly intertwined,” Beinin said. “American capacities are now to some extent dependent on Israel.
It’s not only a long-standing moral commitment; it’s a strategic commitment,” then-Vice President Biden said in 2013. “An independent Israel, secure in its own borders, recognized by the world is in the practical strategic interest of the United States of America. I used to say … if there were no Israel, we’d have to invent one.
The United States would rather that that Israel didn’t massacre Palestinians. The United States would rather that Israel didn’t annex the West Bank, which it is in the process of doing,” Beinin said. “Sometimes, allies don’t do what you want.
This may be going off-topic, but regarding arguments for statehood. In my view, no coutry has legimitate claims to statehood, all land was conquered/stolen/ from people who lived there previously, who stole/conquered it from their predecessors. Israel is a young country, but I don't think the US (or any other country) is more legimitate because it has been around for longer.
This may be going off-topic, but regarding arguments for statehood. In my view, no coutry has legimitate claims to statehood, all land was conquered/stolen/ from people who lived there previously, who stole/conquered it from their predecessors. Israel is a young country, but I don't think the US (or any other country) is more legimitate because it has been around for longer.
One of the core tenets of the post WW2, rules based international order is that we no longer accept the redrawing of borders through military force as legitimate expressions of political will. We haven't always succeeded at this and we have conspicuously failed to intervene in the continent of Africa more than anywhere else, but we can nearly unanimously agree that the forcible displacement of millions of people off the land on which they reside is a war crime. Specifically, that crime is called ethnic cleansing.
Whether or not Israel can square that moral circle with a claim of "self defense" is to some extent a matter of their own conscience. Whether we choose to participate with our support, however, is a matter of OUR conscience.
So when I ask the question whether Israel's "right to exist" necessarily equates to an American obligation to support it in its continuing atrocities, I am not asking an academic question. I am asking because it has very real implications for us.
You know, I keep thinking to myself that if Biden does reverse course due to nearly overwhelming domestic pressure and call on ISR to cease fire that Netanyahu will just say to him in effect, "I look forward to dealing with President Trump again. f*ck off." Because I think everyone knows by now that Netanyahu would prefer Trump (and by extension Jared Kushner) back in the White House rather than someone who at the very least would tell him to pause the offensive.
That's basically every world leader's position on the US now. If you don't like the weather, wait 4 years, because we can't keep our promises or policies longer than that.
I’ve just listened to the first part of this podcast and thought that the section entitled ‘Online Discourse on Gaza’ was a very helpful.
It was only a matter of time before someone started talking about nukes.
Netanyahu of course suspended said minister "until further notice."
It was only a matter of time before someone started talking about nukes.
Netanyahu of course suspended said minister "until further notice."
There's no "of course" with Netanyahu.
Suspended "from cabinet meetings", presumably for saying the quiet part out loud. Not necessarily suspended from actually still giving advice in a one-on-one context, where nobody can overhear him, or performing any of the other duties of his job.
There's no "of course" with Netanyahu.
I meant of course the suspension is noncommittal and meaningless.
Ireland really has gotten under that Isreali government's skin. That statement reveals a lot to me. There is a really nasty campaign on certain popular social media sites now portraying Ireland as a hotbed of Islamic terrorists, terrorist sympathisers in general and Russia apologisers.
Ireland really has gotten under that Isreali government's skin. That statement reveals a lot to me. There is a really nasty campaign on certain popular social media sites now portraying Ireland as a hotbed of Islamic terrorists, terrorist sympathisers in general and Russia apologisers.
I was wondering if that was some veiled reference at their having a brown Taoiseach or something, but I guess not? It's more like how right-wingers here in the US were saying Birmingham (UK) was a no-zone because it was full of terrorists? The dogs are going nuts, there are so many whistles going off.
I don't find it fully convincing, but it was at least interesting to read this criticism/takedown of the "Decolonization" discussion RE: Israel and Gaza.
(The Atlantic Paywall, of course.)
The decolonization narrative has dehumanized Israelis to the extent that otherwise rational people excuse, deny, or support barbarity. It holds that Israel is an “imperialist-colonialist” force, that Israelis are “settler-colonialists,” and that Palestinians have a right to eliminate their oppressors. (On October 7, we all learned what that meant.) It casts Israelis as “white” or “white-adjacent” and Palestinians as “people of color.”
This ideology, powerful in the academy but long overdue for serious challenge, is a toxic, historically nonsensical mix of Marxist theory, Soviet propaganda, and traditional anti-Semitism from the Middle Ages and the 19th century. But its current engine is the new identity analysis, which sees history through a concept of race that derives from the American experience. The argument is that it is almost impossible for the “oppressed” to be themselves racist, just as it is impossible for an “oppressor” to be the subject of racism. Jews therefore cannot suffer racism, because they are regarded as “white” and “privileged”; although they cannot be victims, they can and do exploit other, less privileged people, in the West through the sins of “exploitative capitalism” and in the Middle East through “colonialism.”
This leftist analysis, with its hierarchy of oppressed identities—and intimidating jargon, a clue to its lack of factual rigor—has in many parts of the academy and media replaced traditional universalist leftist values, including internationalist standards of decency and respect for human life and the safety of innocent civilians. When this clumsy analysis collides with the realities of the Middle East, it loses all touch with historical facts.
Indeed, it requires an astonishing leap of ahistorical delusion to disregard the record of anti-Jewish racism over the two millennia since the fall of the Judean Temple in 70 C.E. After all, the October 7 massacre ranks with the medieval mass killings of Jews in Christian and Islamic societies, the Khmelnytsky massacres of 1640s Ukraine, Russian pogroms from 1881 to 1920—and the Holocaust. Even the Holocaust is now sometimes misconstrued—as the actor Whoopi Goldberg notoriously did—as being “not about race,” an approach as ignorant as it is repulsive.
Yeah, I found it an interesting read but I felt there was a healthy dose of "I totally care about Palestinian suffering, I just totally ignore it other than reminding myself to say I really care every 6 paragraphs or so to cover my ass."
the last four weeks of the war, viewed through the online lens is almost kind of destabilizing, in a way. It's two utterly irreconcilable views of reality, at this point.
Netanyahu of course suspended said minister "until further notice."
More internal dissatisfaction at the State Department.
State Department staffers offered a blistering critique of the Biden administration’s handling of the Israel-Hamas war in a dissent memo obtained by POLITICO, arguing that, among other things, the U.S. should be willing to publicly criticize the Israelis.
The message suggests a growing loss of confidence among U.S. diplomats in President Joe Biden’s approach to the Middle East crisis. It reflects the sentiments of many U.S. diplomats, especially at mid-level and lower ranks, according to conversations with several department staffers as well as other reports. If such internal disagreements intensify, it could make it harder for the Biden administration to craft policy toward the region.
The memo has two key requests: that the U.S. support a ceasefire, and that it balance its private and public messaging toward Israel, including airing criticisms of Israeli military tactics and treatment of Palestinians that the U.S. generally prefers to keep private.
The gap between America’s private and public messaging “contributes to regional public perceptions that the United States is a biased and dishonest actor, which at best does not advance, and at worst harms, U.S. interests worldwide,” the document states.
“We must publicly criticize Israel’s violations of international norms such as failure to limit offensive operations to legitimate military targets,” the message also states. “When Israel supports settler violence and illegal land seizures or employs excessive use of force against Palestinians, we must communicate publicly that this goes against our American values so that Israel does not act with impunity.”
The memo is marked “sensitive but unclassified.” It’s not clear how many people signed it or if and when it was submitted to the department’s Dissent Channel, where employees can voice policy disagreements. It’s also not clear if the document was revised in any way beyond the version obtained by POLITICO.
Still, the arguments in it offer a window into the thinking of many people at the State Department, which has long been vexed by the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The department declined to comment directly on the memo, as is standard on such communications. It referred POLITICO to past statements by spokesperson Matthew Miller, who has said Secretary of State Antony Blinken welcomes such arguments and weighs them carefully.
“One of the strengths of this department is that we do have people with different opinions,” Miller said about such messages during a press briefing last month. “We encourage them to make their opinions known.”
By some miracle, does anyone have a Haaretz password they can share? Almost everything on their site is paywalled and I'm trying to find more stuff to read.
By some miracle, does anyone have a Haaretz password they can share? Almost everything on their site is paywalled and I'm trying to find more stuff to read.
try pasting the url into archive.is
Not Haaretz but I've found Times of Israel very informative. Nothing paywalled.
Axon wrote:Ireland really has gotten under that Isreali government's skin. That statement reveals a lot to me. There is a really nasty campaign on certain popular social media sites now portraying Ireland as a hotbed of Islamic terrorists, terrorist sympathisers in general and Russia apologisers.
I was wondering if that was some veiled reference at their having a brown Taoiseach or something, but I guess not? It's more like how right-wingers here in the US were saying Birmingham (UK) was a no-zone because it was full of terrorists? The dogs are going nuts, there are so many whistles going off.
Not quite. Ireland is a mainly white, English speaking country with very strong connections to the US and even the current US President. It is openly critical of Isreali goverments and sympathic to the Palestinian people. Also, Ireland punches way above it's weight on the EU's Council (See the whole von der Leyen affair). Geopolitically Irish governments are a problem for Isreali governments like the current one.
Not to mention a lot of the Isreali government's arguements for what they are doing to the Palestinians sound awful on Irish media given our history.
On top of that Ireland and Isreali governments have clashed repeatedly over issues regarding UNIFIL (UN peace keeping force in Lebanon) which can more often be about the IDF or their allies attacking the force.
To be very clear, Hezbolah and their allies have killed and injured some of our troops as well. Our armed forces aren't exactly crazy about either "side" over there.
What all that leads to is, as the Isreali foreign minister described, a "challenging" enviroment.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...
Editor’s Note: John Spencer is chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute (MWI) at West Point, codirector of MWI’s Urban Warfare Project and host of the “Urban Warfare Project Podcast.” He served for 25 years as an infantry soldier, which included two combat tours in Iraq. He is the author of the book “Connected Soldiers: Life, Leadership, and Social Connection in Modern War” and co-author of “Understanding Urban Warfare.”
All war is hell. All war is killing and destruction, and historically civilians are inordinately the innocent victims of wars. Urban warfare is a unique type of hell not just for soldiers, who face assaults from a million windows or deep tunnels below them, but especially for civilians. Noncombatants have accounted for 90% of casualties per international humanitarian experts in the modern wars that have occurred in populated urban areas such as Iraq’s Mosul and Syria’s Raqqa, even when a Western power like the United States is leading or supporting the campaign.
The destruction and suffering, as awful as they are, don’t automatically constitute war crimes – otherwise, nearly any military action in a populated area would violate the laws of armed conflict, rules distilled from a complicated patchwork of international treaties, court rulings and historic conventions. Scenes of devastation, like Israel’s strikes on the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza earlier this week, quickly spark accusations that Israel is engaging in war crimes, such as indiscriminately killing civilians and engaging in revenge attacks. But war crimes must be assessed on evidence and the standards of armed conflict, not a quick glimpse at the harrowing aftermath of an attack.
Hamas forces indisputably violated multiple laws of war on October 7 in taking Israelis hostage and raping, torturing and directly targeting civilians, as well continuing to attack Israeli population centers with rockets. Years of intelligence assessments and media reports have shown that Hamas also commits war crimes by using human shields for its weapons and command centers and by purposely putting military capabilities in protected sites like hospitals, mosques and schools.
On the other hand, nothing I have seen shows that the Israel Defense Forces are not following the laws of wars in Gaza, particularly when the charges that the IDF is committing war crimes so often come too quickly for there to have been an examination of the factors that determine whether an attack, and the resulting civilian casualties, are lawful. The factors that need to be assessed are the major dimensions of the most commonly agreed to international humanitarian law principles: military necessity, proportionality, distinction, humanity and honor.
President Joe Biden and multiple European countries, including the UK, Germany and France, are supporting Israel’s self-defense even as they express concerns over the humanitarian situation in Gaza. Though Gaza’s legal status is unresolved under international law, Israel needs no permission to enter the territory and resort to using force in order to wage defensive operations because Israel’s right to immediate and unilateral self-defense in accordance with Article 51 of the UN Charter is universally recognized.
Israel has pledged to obey international law, and one of its cornerstones is proportionality. The concept is often misunderstood to allow only for equal numbers of civilian casualties on both sides, with any lopsided numbers considered disproportionate. But proportionality is actually a requirement to take into account how much civilian harm is anticipated in comparison to the expected concrete and direct military advantage, according to UN protocols. In other words, a high civilian death count in Jabalya could potentially be considered legal under international law so long as the military objective is of high value. The Israel Defense Forces said the intended target in this case was the senior Hamas commander who oversaw all military operations in the northern Gaza; neutralizing him is an objective that most likely clears the proportional bar. Furthermore, Israel pointed out that the loss of life was compounded because Hamas had built tunnels that weakened the targeted structure that then collapsed in the strike.
The attack also passes muster on the level of “military necessity,” the principle that the action was necessary to pursue an allowed military goal (killing enemy troops), rather than an illegal goal (causing civilians to suffer). The IDF has said that its aim is to remove the rockets, ammunitions depot, power and transportation systems Hamas has embedded within their civilian population. So far, a number of military experts have assessed that Israel appears to be trying to follow the law of armed conflict in its Gaza campaign.
Of the remaining principles of the law of war – distinction, humanity (which, as the International Committee of the Red Cross phrases it, “forbids the infliction of all suffering, injury or destruction not necessary for achieving the legitimate purpose of a conflict”) and honor in conduct of waging war – the principle of distinction is the most complex. Distinction requires Israel to “distinguish between the civilian population and combatants” and between civilian facilities and military targets, while taking all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. So far I have seen the IDF implementing – and in some cases going beyond – many of the best practices developed to minimize the harm of civilians in similar large-scale urban battles.
These IDF practices include calling everyone in a building to alert them of a pending air strike and giving them time to evacuate – a tactic I’ve never seen elsewhere in my decades of experience, as it also notifies the enemy of the attack – and sometimes even dropping small munitions on top of a building to provide additional warning. They have been conducting multiple weeks of requests that civilians evacuate certain parts of Gaza using multi-media broadcasts, texts and flyer drops. They’ve also provided routes that will not be targeted so that civilians have paths to non-combat areas, though there have been some tragic reports that Palestinians from northern Gaza who have relocated to the south were subsequently killed as the war rages throughout the strip.
When Hamas uses a hospital, school or mosque for military purpose, it can lose its protected status and become a legal military target. Israel must still make all feasible attempts to get as many civilians out of the site as possible, but the sites don’t need to be clear of civilians before being attacked.
Unfortunately, it’s essentially impossible to empty a city of all civilians before conducting an urban battle. Some people always stay, and it can be impossible for the elderly, infirm, hospitalized and similar to evacuate. In the densely populated Gaza Strip, where most Palestinians have nowhere to fully escape the dangers of the war, the proportion of those who remain is likely to be higher, as border crossings remain closed to nearly all Gazans, many Palestinians object to leaving and Hamas has warned others not to go.
Still, even if Hamas has no interest in meeting its obligation to take all feasible precautions to minimize harm to civilians, Israel does and should. The IDF should take steps like constraining its forces to smaller portions of larger urban areas while continuing to provide safe areas and routes out of the combat areas. It should continue its calls for civilian evacuations. It should restrict the use of air strikes and artillery near certain safe areas or gatherings of civilians. It should continue to cooperate with the US in facilitating the entry of humanitarian supplies into Gaza (though it’s reasonable to block fuel, which Hamas can use in its attacks and which the group is also stockpiling while refusing to share it with its own people).
There is no escaping that pursuing a terrorist organization touches off a nightmarish landscape of war. The visually repulsive imagery in Gaza essentially recreates the same scenes that unfolded under American and allied campaigns fighting Al Qaeda, ISIS and other terror groups, because that is what it looks like when you are forced to uproot a sadistic terror organization embedded in an urban area. Sadly, successful US-led or supported campaigns in places such as Mosul and Raqqa caused billions of dollars in damage and killed and displaced hundreds of thousands of civilians; that is the hellish reality of defeating terrorism.
Like all similar conflicts in modern times, a battle in Gaza will look like the entire city was purposely razed to the ground or indiscriminately carpet bombed – but it wasn’t. Israel possesses the military capacity to do so, and the fact that it doesn’t employ such means is further evidence that it is respecting the rules of war. It is also a sign that this is not revenge – a gross mischaracterization of Israeli aims – but instead a careful defensive campaign to ensure Israel’s survival.
I should note, I am not sure Israel isn't justified in the ways it is conducting this war.
They may be but it is just silly to say they are not breaking international law. Poor example but often people speed when going to the hospital - technically the law was broken but the situation justifies it. Perhaps people could argue the ways that Israel breaks international law is acceptable but that doesn't mean it isn't broken.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...
John Spencer at CNN wrote:Editor’s Note:....
On the other hand, nothing I have seen shows that the Israel Defense Forces are not following the laws of wars in Gaza, particularly when the charges that the IDF is committing war crimes so often come too quickly for there to have been an examination of the factors that determine whether an attack, and the resulting civilian casualties, are lawful. The factors that need to be assessed are the major dimensions of the most commonly agreed to international humanitarian law principles: military necessity, proportionality, distinction, humanity and honor.
Israeli forces use illegal white phosphorus in attacks on Gaza and Lebanon: Amnesty International Just the top source out of many.
Experts say Hamas and Israel are breaking international law, but what does that mean?
Why Hamas and Israel are both alleged to have broken international rules of war
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