[Discussion] Your Fave is Problematic: HP and Hogwart's Legacy

This thread is to discuss the many concerns and issues with this franchise, the problematic nature of supporting it, and the indoctrination of fascism and white supremacist dog-whistling within it's content as well as the beliefs and behaviours of it's creators.

Please read all posts prior to posting to avoid retreading talking points that have already played out.
Please review the linked material in the Original Post for context.

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mudbunny wrote:

But they feel comfortable talking about a game in an IP that is antisemitic and whose creator is actively trying to eradicate trans folk.

You have made this claim a number of times and I would ask what you are basing it on. The video posted by NSMike did not go this far, and in fact said that JKR takes pains to not say anything this blatant but concludes her transphobia on the basis of other things.

Stengah wrote:

I think another reason Hogwarts Legacy is getting more pushback compared to older Harry Potter stuff (beyond JKR's abandoning all pretense of being a good person) is that it isn't part of anyone's cherished memories. It's a new story with new characters, just set in the same world. People aren't asking anyone to get rid of the books that meant so much to them growing up, or to never rewatch the movies. Just don't buy the new thing that's only connected to the characters you love by the setting.

Here's the thing: People loved Harry Potter and the world that he lives in. I would bet that any kid who loved the books wanted to get their own letter from Hogwarts. Its not just the characters; its wanting to experience that world. And that is what the game provides.

Uh...rewatch the video. She says that JKR is careful not to say that's her goal, not that it isn't her goal. It pretty clearly is.

Stengah wrote:

I think another reason Hogwarts Legacy is getting more pushback compared to older Harry Potter stuff (beyond JKR's abandoning all pretense of being a good person) is that it isn't part of anyone's cherished memories. It's a new story with new characters, just set in the same world. People aren't asking anyone to get rid of the books that meant so much to them growing up, or to never rewatch the movies. Just don't buy the new thing that's only connected to the characters you love by the setting.

This. I also loved Ender's Game years ago before I learned how awful the author was thanks to the Internet.

Nobody is saying burn your HP books and smash your DVDs or BR discs. Most of us didn't know how horrible JKR was until the last 5 years. But now that we do know, maybe don't give her more money that she will actively use to spread hate.

Harpo, thanks for your posts today.

Stengah wrote:

Uh...rewatch the video. She says that JKR is careful not to say that's her goal, not that it isn't her goal. It pretty clearly is.

The irony of all this is that both the Sterling and Jessie Gender (especially JG) videos posted in the other threads and linked above is that both predict, call out, and counter the very arguments being used in this thread and the HP thread by people trying to rationalize their enjoyment of the blood libel terf wizard game.

Toraak wrote:
Stengah wrote:

I think another reason Hogwarts Legacy is getting more pushback compared to older Harry Potter stuff (beyond JKR's abandoning all pretense of being a good person) is that it isn't part of anyone's cherished memories. It's a new story with new characters, just set in the same world. People aren't asking anyone to get rid of the books that meant so much to them growing up, or to never rewatch the movies. Just don't buy the new thing that's only connected to the characters you love by the setting.

Here's the thing: People loved Harry Potter and the world that he lives in. I would bet that any kid who loved the books wanted to get their own letter from Hogwarts. Its not just the characters; its wanting to experience that world. And that is what the game provides.

You're missing the point. It's fully understood that you'd still want to experience it, but it's not the same situation as revisiting something from your childhood that you later found out was problematic. This is a new experience in something you knew was problematic before you started. It gets judged harsher, and rightly so.

Toraak wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

But they feel comfortable talking about a game in an IP that is antisemitic and whose creator is actively trying to eradicate trans folk.

You have made this claim a number of times and I would ask what you are basing it on. The video posted by NSMike did not go this far, and in fact said that JKR takes pains to not say anything this blatant but concludes her transphobia on the basis of other things.

A lot of this is actually stated in the videos. (See Ruhk and Stengah's posts above.)

JK Rowling has affirmed her allegiance with TERFs and with the Gender Critical movement.

I used just one example but google is your playground, there's a lot more you can find there if you are looking for examples of where she walks up to the edge, linguistically, or aligns herself with movements that explicitly genocidal.

This is going to be discussed in an upcoming podcast side episode, but fascists use language with *just enough* plausible deniability about their genocidal intentions that you can't point to any one statement and say that person is literally calling for death (until its too late.) This is why you get retreats to irony and "its just a joke" frequently tagged into public statements from fascists.

But the movements give it away, because those movements are explicitly against the identity of trans people existing. I've also got links in previous posts you can read through (along with the content of those posts) if you'd like more information. Or, again, spend some time with Google. Sit it on it a day or two and give the videos a closer watch/the links people have posted a closer read as a lot of what you are concerned about is well covered in thread (and elsewhere!)

I've been coming here daily for over 15 years, for the simple reason that being a goodjer meant being BETTER. It means being open to change, to discourse, to viewpoints beyond your own and respecting them. To me, that's something that has always shone through in this site and its moderation. Historically and especially with the changing of the guard.

With Hogwart's Legacy, I don't know how to be eloquent anymore on the subject. I'm embattled with my close friends, and have had to ask them to stop discussing it in chats I'm a part of. It bothers me and they won't accept the links between support of the franchise (in this iteration most especially); and the support of antitrans/antisemitic movements.

Even harder is that my child, someone they purport to love, support and be allied with, is trans. He is already facing such an uphill battle in life that it terrifies me what he will have to endure, but now to learn that even his purported support system tells me to "stop telling them not to have fun" rather than support him in all aspects hurts. This entire conversation hurts. I can only imagine how it feels for those who are directly affected, not just those of us who care about them.

I guess I'm trying to say thank you to this community for being a shining standard, and to continuously trying its best.

As yet another white cis male boomer that's been here for years, I had been very much looking forward to playing Hogwart's Legacy, and had it on my Steam wishlist for months now. I really wanted a good CRPG time-sink in which to spend days of my gaming time.

I recall having heard about JK Rowling's bad words and actions over the last few years, but somehow I didn't put together how my purchase would in any way be taken as supporting her, or her toxic writings and actions. I (fortunately) didn't buy the game early -- the offered bonus wasn't much and I was worried that the game might not perform well enough on my PC.

However, having been (re-)educated here at GWJ, it's clear to me that I simply cannot buy this game now or in the future. It's gone from my wishlist. Even though I've only had personal interactions with a few trans folks in my life -- naturally there could well be more that I'm just unaware of, as the ones I know of were people who I knew during their transition -- I will not spend money that even implicitly is taken as supporting JKR's views.

I take exception with one of the arguments made above that "purchasing a game doesn't support the developers". A missing bit here is that although it's likely true for AAA games and similar games from large teams, it's completely inaccurate for indie games and even for smaller development shops. Half of my Steam games purchased over the last two years were for games from single developers or very small indies, and I know those developers immediately benefited from my spending on their games.

So now my CRPG time-sink hopes are reduced to waiting for Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 to be released -- "coming soon" it says; yeah, right. Regardless, please let it be free from similar issues and only suffer from the usual game development sweatshop troubles.

Old Man Pi wrote:

With Hogwart's Legacy, I don't know how to be eloquent anymore on the subject. I'm embattled with my close friends, and have had to ask them to stop discussing it in chats I'm a part of. It bothers me and they won't accept the links between support of the franchise (in this iteration most especially); and the support of antitrans/antisemitic movements.

Even harder is that my child, someone they purport to love, support and be allied with, is trans. He is already facing such an uphill battle in life that it terrifies me what he will have to endure, but now to learn that even his purported support system tells me to "stop telling them not to have fun" rather than support him in all aspects hurts. This entire conversation hurts. I can only imagine how it feels for those who are directly affected, not just those of us who care about them.

Many accounts of Germany in the 1930's include Gentiles explaining to the their Jewish friends, sheepishly, that they "only joined the Party because my boss insisted" or the like. "We are still friends, you know, you can count on us." Now you know how those Jewish friends felt. Hopefully we don't end up going that far. But it's still fear, confusion, helplessness and bewilderment. Society is changing, but it's up to us to make the small decisions that point it in a better direction. Because we know what happens, eventually, when the bigots win.

This all makes me think of my past love for the music of Ryan Adams. I'd been listening to him since his Whiskeytown days, and he was absolutely one of my favorite songwriters. Sure, he was inconsistent, but, when he was on, he made great damn music. Then Phoebe Bridgers released "Motion Sickness", and that knocked open the floodgates; it was a song she'd written about how she'd gotten into a relationship with Adams, and it wasn't great, and he was creepy and controlling. Multiple other young female musicians revealed they'd been pressured into relationships or sexual contact with Adams, and some of those that rebuffed him had their careers evaporate. At that point, it was clear one of my favorite musicians was at best somebody who was using his influence in the music industry to groom young women, if not an avid sexual predator.

I really loved a lot of Ryan Adams songs. Some still run through my head these days. I don't care. I threw his CDs away, unfavorited every song on streaming services, and walked away. Do I miss some of those songs? Sure, but, you know what? We live in a time of such an almost inconceivable amount of choice as to the media we sample from I've got plenty of other music I love, and I can listen to that. If I stream Ryan Adams, it supports him financially, and it also makes sure those streaming numbers stay up, and any influence he has is damn well going to lead to him pouncing on somebody else in the future. Ryan Adams can go f*ck himself.

And that's all without Ryan Adams, say, being a very visible public figure who releases highly prominent media across all sorts of different platforms while spouting hateful, repugnant garbage. He preyed on young women, but "at least" he didn't then use a highly public platform to talk about how great it is to sexually harass and ruin the lives of female musicians who didn't give in to him. That's essentially what Rowling does; she takes all of her attention and success and uses it to help promote a vile, repugnant hate campaign that is gaining traction in all sorts of places. She does it while, say, being a crappy enough human being to threaten an educational website for children for implying she was transphobic. Oh, and she's used the threat of the UK's rather lax libel laws to bludgeon other people into silence or apologies. By any measure, she is an awful human being, and every bit of attention Harry Potter gets as a franchise helps her continue pushing the disgusting ideas that are now being legislated into places like Florida, Iowa, and South Dakota.

It's one thing to consume media from somebody who was awful when they were alive but are now dead. It's another when it continues to raise the profile of those who will merrily continue being horrible for as long as we give them the spotlight. The entire Harry Potter franchise can die in a fire, and, yes, anyone can play this game, and I will without reservation think worse of you for doing so because of what every little drip of money and attention will do for Rowling.

She's not just a person with some crappy ideas. She's a person who has made herself a very public spokesperson for those ideas, and that requires a whole new level of scorn from anybody who considers themselves in the slightest an ally.

I have followed this topic across the couple of threads where it's been going on and first I'd like to say sorry to those who are affected by it for not voicing my support earlier and louder. Not that I think I'm capable of changing anything by myself but I also realize that an anonymous like is not a lot. As someone who knows very little about the HP world, I appreciate all the thoughtful and informative things people have posted in this discussion.

Also, as someone who is newer to this community than most people, I'll say that the fact that the people running this place try to make it welcoming and safe for anyone is a big reason why I participate here and otherwise I probably wouldn't.

Jonman wrote:

I'm struggling with (a) when and if it's age appropriate to start a wider conversation about art and the artist, and (b) piss all over something she loves and ruin it for her, when her 9-year-old interaction with the IP is pretty dang positive (Hermione being a smart, self-possessed girl serves as a positive role model). As upthread posters have talked about their childhood love for IP by arseholes, I don't know how to balance the genuinely good things she takes from it with the arseholery.

I'm not looking for permission to let her have the game, and maybe this is a question better suited for the parenting thread. Just trying to figure out how to approach topics like this with a kid.

I think about this a lot because I know I'll be in this situation sooner rather than later. I also think how to discuss problematic media like this with kids falls under the umbrella of this thread but I'm also happy to move this discussion elsewhere if that's appropriate. This is my humble $0.02:

I'm not sure when it's appropriate or not to have a conversation like this with a kid but the fact is that this game may end up forcing your hand. And you're not pissing all over it and ruining it, JKR did that part. I do understand it's hard to let go of the positive aspects of the media and potentially playing a role in making your child sad, at least for a moment. That sucks.

On how to approach it, first of all, I'd be proactive and start the conversation myself (easier said than done, I know). If you do that, you get to pick the time to have a difficult conversation. If, like you said, your kid learns about it from a friend and asks for it, not only she inadvertently gets to pick the time to have a difficult conversation but also her expectations, and therefore the subsequent disappointment, will be bigger.

I would frame it about myself because it puts less pressure on the kid and leading by example is always best. Maybe I would try a more elaborate version of something like "I heard about this new HP game but I also read that the creator did all these awful things and I feel like buying the game, even though I might enjoy playing it, supports the creator's ability to keep doing these awful things so I've decided not to buy it, what do you think?" You don't have to ban your kid from playing the game if you can help her decide for herself not to buy it (yeah, yeah, easier said than done, we've already established that). You can try to frame not buying the game as a small positive action to support other people instead of as a negative action of no, you can't have this thing that you like. It might also be helpful to have something else to do after having a difficult conversation, not as a "here's a reward for doing the right thing" but more as providing a way to refocus their attention and get past something that may be unpleasant.

Anyway, I am obviously far from having all the answers here but I still wanted to share those thoughts.

Lots of people on Steam in GWJ are playing the game for many hours. Some notable members of the podcast. Jeff Cannata is enjoying the game too.

I thought not playing Hogwarts would have been a no-brainer at GWJ, or at the very least (and it really is the absolute least), not celebrating it in a 'yay this game' thread.

I'm sorry to our LGBTQ+ members that this is even up for debate. It must be exhausting to have to put your case again and again, as if no one remembers anything, when all this stuff has been out there for years at this point.

To other members, please think about what it means to call GWJ a "community". A community looks out for its members, which includes listening when members raise concerns. Think about why GWJ is special to you, and let's help everyone feel that same kinda special. Forgoing a thread on one game seems a pretty small price to pay for that.

Balthezor wrote:

Lots of people on Steam in GWJ are playing the game for many hours. Some notable members of the podcast. Jeff Cannata is enjoying the game too.

I don't think it is okay to try to publicly shame people for playing it on steam. There is a big difference between playing the game and posting about playing the game. You can choose not to see what games they are playing.

This seems very close to bullying to me. You could have just said it upsets you seeing so many people play it without giving specific names.

Pretty sure Balthezor didn't bring that up to try and shame the people playing it, but as a whaddaboutism for why those of us in favor of the boycott aren't "going after" them, too. Like we aren't also very disappointed in them too.

Baron Of Hell wrote:
Balthezor wrote:

Lots of people on Steam in GWJ are playing the game for many hours. Some notable members of the podcast. Jeff Cannata is enjoying the game too.

I don't think it is okay to try to publicly shame people for playing it on steam. There is a big difference between playing the game and posting about playing the game. You can choose not to see what games they are playing.

This seems very close to bullying to me. You could have just said it upsets you seeing so many people play it without giving specific names.

Jeff's podcast, DLC is a public podcast. I've been listening to him for 10+ years. He didn't private message me or called me to tell me he is secretly playing the game. I can post a link to the most recent episode if you want. Is that bullying?

Spoiler: He thinks very highly of the game. Game of the year caliber. Too bad it's filled with controversies.

JKR is a disgusting, POS. But I am having fun playing the game.

Balthezor wrote:

JKR is a disgusting, POS. But I am having fun playing the game.

Sure, but that first bit rings kinda hollow when you're still knowingly throwing money in her court, y'know?

TheMostRad wrote:
Balthezor wrote:

JKR is a disgusting, POS. But I am having fun playing the game.

Sure, but that first bit rings kinda hollow when you're still knowingly throwing money in her court, y'know?

Sure.

Without naming names, some of the top people on this site play Hogwart's. Why is it ok to support this site when they are playing a game you are all clearly opposed to? Wouldn't monthly donations (or donations during the drive) directly benefit those whose beliefs you are against? Maybe it doesn't go directly into their pockets but it does generate revenue for a site that supports something you feel strongly against.

DeThroned wrote:

Without naming names, some of the top people on this site play Hogwart's. Why is it ok to support this site when they are playing a game you are all clearly opposed to? Wouldn't monthly donations (or donations during the drive) directly benefit those whose beliefs you are against? Maybe it doesn't go directly into their pockets but it does generate revenue for a site that supports something you feel strongly against.

I think it's gross what you and Balthazar are doing by bringing them into the conversation.

That said I think it's fair to question people if they have made a public stance on allyship if they are playing this game and tacitly supporting JKR.

Balthezor wrote:
Baron Of Hell wrote:
Balthezor wrote:

Lots of people on Steam in GWJ are playing the game for many hours. Some notable members of the podcast. Jeff Cannata is enjoying the game too.

I don't think it is okay to try to publicly shame people for playing it on steam. There is a big difference between playing the game and posting about playing the game. You can choose not to see what games they are playing.

This seems very close to bullying to me. You could have just said it upsets you seeing so many people play it without giving specific names.

Jeff's podcast, DLC is a public podcast. I've been listening to him for 10+ years. He didn't private message me or called me to tell me he is secretly playing the game. I can post a link to the most recent episode if you want. Is that bullying?

Spoiler: He thinks very highly of the game. Game of the year caliber. Too bad it's filled with controversies.

JKR is a disgusting, POS. But I am having fun playing the game.

I don't know it still seems kind of gross to me. The forum isn't the podcast. I didn't even know the podcast existed. hmmm I guess if most people here listen to the podcast that would be public enough to call him out on it.

DeThroned wrote:

Without naming names, some of the top people on this site play Hogwart's. Why is it ok to support this site when they are playing a game you are all clearly opposed to? Wouldn't monthly donations (or donations during the drive) directly benefit those whose beliefs you are against? Maybe it doesn't go directly into their pockets but it does generate revenue for a site that supports something you feel strongly against.

The former podcasters you're hinting around haven't received a single thing from the DD in several years at least, and yes, I was aware they were playing. Was kind of something I noticed when removing them from my steam friend's list. If I ever get the chance to talk to them about it, I'll ask. For some, I'm not going to make any assumptions on who in their family is playing on their shared account until I get a chance to speak to them.

The funds for the donation drive go to supporting the website directly for monthly fees, per diems for the writers, regular podcasters (anyone who is on more than twice a month) and other contributors to the community. I, personally, have 0 take-home from gamers with jobs, the podcast, or the site because I would rather pad out the perdiems of everyone else. I also paid for most of the physical donation drive rewards out of my own pocket, though Shawn has offered to chip in rewards costs from the DD funds. I haven't asked him for that.

You can assume hypocrisy all you like. the people you see playing those games have disengaged themselves from the website fully, and any appearances on the podcast are either personal asks from Shawn or myself. Since this whole HP thing is a new development, there are conversations post-release that we will be having with folks before we speak to them again, it's just not something that has happened yet.

Rich and I were away at a work event last week, and we needed podcast coverage. The most recent podcast where some may have been in attendance was prior to the release of the game, so we didn't have the chance to predict who would be playing and if they'd be back on the show before hogwarts legacy was released. I'm not sure how you were expecting us to plan for problematic unknown future game releases, so apologies that we did not handle this predictively, I guess?

Since it seems like folks are interested in policing everything we do regarding this content now, I'll preface the sidebar podcast episode (which will likely post tomorrow) was also recorded the day after HL was released this weekend, and we were not yet aware of how many people in the community were playing at that time, nor had the time to talk to everyone to see how they felt about the game. It was recorded at the same time as the regular podcast episode, and was unplanned.

Part of this process, which takes not only time, but choosing the right time to discuss, with each person in my personal life that I want to discuss this with. There are some people for whom I'd rather just cut ties than try to negotiate that. For others, it'll be a process of approaching who I can, when I can, and how to handle that friendship or relationship. That is a nuanced conversation that can take time, and I'm sorry it's not something we can do overnight to everyone else's satisfaction.

That's fine though, you're looking for soft spots to stab, so I'm sure you'll find some other detail to judge us for on hypocritical grounds, perhaps because you're hurt you're being judged for playing it. That's been a pretty common knee-jerk reaction so far, and I don't fault you for that, but hope this post allows you some self-reflection regarding how you're behaving in the thread.

Was kind of something I noticed when removing them from my steam friend's list.

Was having that urge last night as I saw 4 or 5 people fire it up while I was playing Rocket League.

Trying to remember if I've played any games with them since TF2, L4D or something else years ago. Wondering if they would even miss me. Then realizing I have over 300 Steam friends just from GWJ and could probably do with 5 less.

My friend's list is full anyway, no regrets. If they're actual friends, I'll speak to them elsewhere. It wasn't some line in the sand gesture; just seeing the constant notifications was a dozens a day reminder that most people truly don't know or care. I'm aware of that. For my own mental health, I'd rather not see it while I'm trying to play my little gay puzzle game, which is fine. No different than blocking trump or elno on twitter as far as I'm concerned.

SallyNasty wrote:

I think it's gross what you and Balthazar are doing by bringing them into the conversation.

I was wondering where I saw this done before, then it hit my. When my kids were under 10, they would yell "BUT [OTHER CHILD] IS DOING IT ALSO!!!" when they were getting scolded or punished, as if it would make what they were doing less wrong.

And yes, if people actively involved in the podcast (which, as Amoebic said, those folks haven't been involved for several years now) are playing HL, then I will reconsider any money I donate.

But, they aren't, so it isn't a worry.

I was going to unsubscribe to a few youtube channels of people that started lets play of it but then remembered I could just ban the name of the game. Now I'm thinking maybe I should have just prune them to cutdown on my endless feed.