[Discussion] Your Fave is Problematic: HP and Hogwart's Legacy

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This thread is to discuss the many concerns and issues with this franchise, the problematic nature of supporting it, and the indoctrination of fascism and white supremacist dog-whistling within it's content as well as the beliefs and behaviours of it's creators.

Please read all posts prior to posting to avoid retreading talking points that have already played out.
Please review the linked material in the Original Post for context.

It's assumed you'll do your own homework before diving in, so your fellow forum members telling you to review the OP or linking back to previous posts is not rudeness, lack of listening, or dismissiveness - you are responsible for your own personal education journey, it's not the responsibility of others to bring you up to speed.

Promoting anti-trans rhetoric or talking points, spamming, or harassment will be removed without notice and may be subject to further moderator action as dictated by the moderation team.

Since this is derailing the content thread, and others tend to be cross-posting in various areas around the site and dominating multiple other threads, this thread exists in hopes to gather most of it in fewer places.

That being said, there is still an upcoming front-page post touching on this, as well. In the meantime, here are a list of links so far that we'll be referencing there.

Excerpt from Racism in the Harry Potter Series by Kaitlin Ollivier-Gooch
Harry Potter: More About Race Than You Thought
Problematic Tropes and Harmful Stereotypes in the Harry Potter Series
FelixThreepaper's thoughts on it during The Week Ahead February 6 - 12 here
Waypoint Radio has a discussion on the topic that starts at about 38 minutes.

Hat-tip to NSMike for sharing the video below in other threads:

Hat-tip to BaronofHell as well for sharing this video in the Television, Cinema, and Race thread. It's lengthy, and a good listen, however segment 3 from 58:13 to 1:40-ish is an important listen.

Places to consider donating:
Trans Lifeline
The Trevor Project

~mod~
Waypoint Radio link added
mudbunny

Donation resources added
Certis

I love the Harry Potter series. Not only for the writing (listen, good writing is a very low bar for me, and the outcast boy really matches how I feel a lot of the time), but because it is great popcorn reading. Not to mention there are a lot of kids (well, adults now) who were only reading in high school because of Harry Potter. This game is right up my alley.

That being said, JKR is a horrible human being, and I will no longer consume anything she produces to the best of my ability. I have many friends that she is directly trying to target with her words and deeds. How could I call myself a friend if I supported JKR by giving her $$$ by consuming HP stuff??

Again, this is my viewpoint, and should not be taken as official or anything else.

At other game companies, what typically happens is that stories come out about horrible atmosphere due to sexual harassment (to use one example). People boycott the company and refuse to buy their game, so the company will, because of [s]public[/s[ (hahahahah, I almost believed that) investor pressure force changes. The worst offenders will be fired, the company will make some vague statement about how things are changing, blahblahblah and people will go back to doing exactly what they did before.

In 0 cases are the companies actively supporting causes that are aimed at making things easier for those who sexually harass people.

In this case, JKR actively supports and donates to TERF causes whose sole focus is to hurt people that I consider friends. She is of the opinion that people buy HP stuff because they agree with and support her TERFy views. She has no investors who will pressure her to publicly change. There is no board of directors out there who will take Harry Potter Inc in a new direction. There's no owner to oust her from the running of it the way MS did with Minecraft. She owns Harry Potter.

Let me be clear. There are a lot of people who love Harry Potter and have no idea of the problematic stuff surrounding it. They are, to me, not the problem. It is the people out there who see the game, know that buying the game is actively supporting someone who wants to cause significant harm to people in this community, and buy the game anyways.

I can't stop them from making the choice to play the game.

But choices have consequences.

Edit to add

Just to make it clear, because I am a mod and I don't want there to be confusion or rumours. I will not ban people for playing a game. I will not mod or delete their posts for playing a game.

I see it as a simple choice to not play a video game (when there is by no means a lack of games to play) and not hurt a bunch of cool people. And I’m feeling disappointed right now that some members of this community are making what I feel is the wrong choice.

steinkrug wrote:

I see it as a simple choice to not play a video game (when there is by no means a lack of games to play) and not hurt a bunch of cool people. And I’m feeling disappointed right now that some members of this community are making what I feel is the wrong choice.

This seems to say it for me there is zero need to engage with this particular game when a lot of nice and cool people are saying it hurts them. I am white middle class hetro cis man, and therefore I need to listen. On this occasion it’s even easier as I am a bit too old to be really into HP but if it were say a Terry Pratchett or Douglas Adams game that was linked to such ideas, I would do the same thing.

I think the thing that's especially disappointing to me is how forcefully and loudly people would like to share, publicly, that they are making a morally compromised choice and how much they would very much like to be patted on the back and told that that is fine.

Like, sure, make your compromised choice in private if you absolutely must, but don't go to the public square and start bragging about it and demanding that others treat it as fine when it very clearly isn't.

No, I’m saying what it comes down to ultimately, is a choice between playing a video game and hurting a bunch of cool people or NOT playing a video game and NOT hurting a bunch of people.
And because NOT hurting people is a lot more important than getting to play a video game, NOT hurting people is the easy choice.

Maybe I should say simple rather than easy. It might not be easy if you are heavily into HP, but I do think it ultimately comes down to be a simple choice.

There are lots of people in the community that have directly expressed how this game is actively harmful to them. And this community is much, much larger than the people who participate in the threads.

And those people know that given the choice of "play game made by a TERF who would gladly exterminate our LGBTQ2A+ members" and "show support to our community members being directly targeted by said TERF", there are members of our community who will gladly go "LOOK!! SEE HOW ALLY I AM!! SO ALLY!! I SAY ALLY!! SEE!! NOW WATCH ME PLAY GAME THAT SUPPORTS A CREATOR THAT WANTS TO EXTERMINATE YOU!!"

For many years, GWJ has had a goal of being always been a safe space about inclusiveness and acceptance.

For many of our members, it is now less safe.

Edit - clarified my comment.

mudbunny wrote:

GWJ has always been a safe space about inclusiveness and acceptance.

Always is a very long time and I would dispute this statement. I remember cheeba and many an offensive post that went unmodded.

I would say inclusivity has absolutely been a goal, but not always a practice.

SallyNasty wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

GWJ has always been a safe space about inclusiveness and acceptance.

Always is a very long time and I would dispute this statement. I remember cheeba and many an offensive post that went unmodded.

I would say inclusivity has absolutely been a goal, but not always a practice.

True, and I will edit my above comment to reflect that.

SallyNasty wrote:

I would say inclusivity has absolutely been a goal, but not always a practice.

I would also like to say that the practice has only been implemented recently (within the last ~5 years, maybe even sooner) with the changing of the guard. If your lead moderator is stepping away from a thread then that might be telling a little bit of how "inclusive" your community is.

CptDomano wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

I would say inclusivity has absolutely been a goal, but not always a practice.

I would also like to say that the practice has only been implemented recently (within the last ~5 years, maybe even sooner) with the changing of the guard. If your lead moderator is stepping away from a thread then that might be telling a little bit of how "inclusive" your community is.

Kicked dogs holler, and they're usually a vocal minority. I stepped away because it's too personally close to me, and I don't have the perspective or resolve to withstand the conversation, frankly. Were it not for the 40+ people, I would have just quietly folded and packed it in. I was trying to take an approach that was about information and context not realizing that there are people who exist that don't want to be informed. I don't feel good about any of this and need to step away. It was stupid and naive of me to think that maybe people were just unaware.

That being said, I'll still be taking an informational approach to the context of the entire situation, I just can't speak to certain things from a moderator perspective.

Thought we already had a creators and their creations D&D thread.

But anyway, f*ck JKR.

Just go read her Twitter feed and see what hate looks like. It's awful

I was an army brat as a kid, moving six times before my eleventh birthday. I had ADHD, and a speech impediment that I wouldn't resolve until I was fifteen years old. When I was eleven, we moved to Logan, Utah, a town that's about 97% Mormon. I was not Mormon. Because of all those factors, I was withdrawn, bullied, and excluded. I barely spoke at school, and several times, I considered self-harm. I struggled. A lot.

When I was 12, my mom took me to the dentist for a cleaning. I was reading a Star Trek novel, and the dentist kindly asked if I liked science fiction. When I confirmed that I did, he went back to his office, and brought me a book, giving it to me. He said he thought that I'd like it, and he was more right than he knew. It was about a young boy who was bullied, isolated, suffering, but discovered that there was a purpose behind what he was enduring. I read it three times in a month. I began imagining myself in his world, being his friend, helping him, because he would understand me. That book meant more to me than I had the words to express, and got me through a truly unpleasant time in my life. I met the author, and though I was so nervous I nearly had a panic attack, he was kind to me and signed my copy. That book was Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card.

Orson Scott Card is a homophobic bigot. He has spoken out against gay and trans rights, donated to hate groups, and as an adult, I know that his books are rife with imperialist, fascist ideas, and a few minutes of Googling will reveal so many more examples of how hateful a human being he actually is. I didn't learn that until I was older. If I were a better person, I would have cut myself off from him and his writing. I wouldn't have paid to see the movie. I wouldn't have bought Ender's Shadow. But I did. I still have the copy he signed, the one someone gave to me when they saw I was shy and quiet, and the one that really mattered to me.

There's part of me that wants to burn it. I'm not that kid anymore. I don't speak with a lisp anymore. I'm an adult that has built a life he's quite proud of. But if I'm completely honest with myself, there's still part of me that's a scared, lonely kid that found just a bit of comfort and strength in the writings of a hateful monster. I don't know what to do with that.

I don't care that much about Harry Potter. Skipping this game is an easy choice for me, and I won't be buying it. But I worry that we're making this a simple choice: Buy the game or support trans rights, you can't do both. I think, for a lot of people, it's not that simple. For a lot of us, stories can be a foundational part of who we are, and cutting ourselves off from that is not as easy as many people make it out to be.

I'm not saying anyone in this thread is wrong. I honestly think that, for the vast majority of people, this should be an easy call. Don't play the stupid game. But when I see someone decide to play it, I don't know what this world means to them, what it might have helped them survive.

trichy wrote:

There's part of me that wants to burn it. I'm not that kid anymore. I don't speak with a lisp anymore. I'm an adult that has built a life he's quite proud of. But if I'm completely honest with myself, there's still part of me that's a scared, lonely kid that found just a bit of comfort and strength in the writings of a hateful monster. I don't know what to do with that.

For me, it was Terry Goodkind and The Sword of Truth. I very much looked up to Richard and his ability to always find the Truth. And in the same breadth he found a way around the Wizard's First Rule--so clever! As the years went on and I understood a bit more of how the real world operates, Terry Goodkind seemed a bit off. Upon further investigation I understood just how messed up his worldviews were and how they seeped into his work.

I can absolutely appreciate how these works affected me and influenced my belief system at the time. I'll never write off Goodkind and someone who I admired and devoured his media. In general though? f*ck Terry Goodkind. He made me feel good when I was younger, but I've grown up and the media he produces is sh*t. I'd never recommend my son to read anything he produced and I will vocally protest to him if he picks up the books. Not to shame him for liking a thing, for sure, but to explain why the author of the media is problematic and that there are so many alternatives out there.

Thank you to the site for always being a staple of my mornings over the past 10+ years. I've not been a vocal participant, but have really enjoyed the intellectual dialog that I've read everyday regarding videogames, sports, and world events. I was an uninformed individual that bought Hogwarts Legacy, not to hurt anyone, but because HP movies and books were a world I lost myself in and was apart of the last 20 years of my life. When I was dealing with anxiety issues a few years ago, HP movies helped soothe some of the emotional issues I was having. It may sound silly, but it did. My daughter used to fall asleep to the first HP movie and loved it. I have memories of her running around the house saying "wingardium leviosa". So the works of a bigot do have a special place in my heart. I hadn't really paid attention to the hurtful comments JKR had made until I read the information here. I don't disagree with the venom that many of the communities members have for her and any product related to her. I do however disagree with the venom being shown many of the members that purchased the game merely to play a game in a world that they might have some affection for. Since I happen to be one of those individuals, I suddenly feel unwelcome here. My choice to continue playing has nothing to do with the real world issues surrounding the author, but with my desire to continue a game that brings me joy. I know that may sound selfish to some, but I don't think that should label me as a bad person.

blackanchor wrote:

I was an uninformed individual that bought Hogwarts Legacy, not to hurt anyone, but because HP movies and books were a world I lost myself in and was apart of the last 20 years of my life.

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone here is accusing anyone else here of knowingly buying the game to specifically hurt other members of this community. It is more just that with the information available about JRK, her views, and the Harry Potter universe, it's hard to understand why someone would continue to support the franchise.

You are allowed to decide that, for you, playing HL doesn't make you a bad person. You are allowed to decide the bigotry and hatred that JKR spews is not enough of a barrier to prevent you from playing the game.

You don't get to decide what others think of you when they see you playing the game and supporting a bigot.

mudbunny wrote:

You don't get to decide what others think of you when they see you playing the game and supporting a bigot.

Yes, exactly. That's kind of what I was getting at with my post. Thank you.

If I had an opinion on a thread that I didn't agree with, I would just move on. There's a lot of threads on GWJ that I have no interest in, or possibly a strong opinion against the thread itself. However, I just leave that thread alone.

Thanks to that not being done and a few people needing to voice their opinions against the game (which I will again point out was NOT the point of the thread), we now all get punished. Instead of telling those people who chose to use the gaming thread instead of D&D to keep your opinions there, we now have a locked thread and I can't talk about a game that I'm really enjoying.

Well, thank you guys for that. If any of you know if it's possible to tap our heels together and bring back the GWJ we had 10-15 years ago, please let me know.

Slight left turn.

My 9 year old daughter loves the IP. She plays HP games with her friends (the imagination kind), has a Hermione costume and assorted HP tchotkes.

She's played the LEGO HP games (which to my probably faulty recollection, there was no/limited pushback to from this and other communities at the time).

Those ships have sailed. But what do I do now? It's only a matter of time before the game comes onto her radar, likely from a friend at school playing it. It would be an easy out for me to say "we don't have the money for it", easy because it's true right now - the family doesn't have spare dollars for $60 games.

But this is a girl who (currently) identifies as gay (which I'm aware may or may not stick once the hormones come online), doesn't bat an eyelid at the concept of gender fluidity or the notion of non-binary genders, and is a little social justice warrior in the making. And her response to not being able to afford the game will likely be "I'll save up my allowance and buy it for myself".

I'm struggling with (a) when and if it's age appropriate to start a wider conversation about art and the artist, and (b) piss all over something she loves and ruin it for her, when her 9-year-old interaction with the IP is pretty dang positive (Hermione being a smart, self-possessed girl serves as a positive role model). As upthread posters have talked about their childhood love for IP by arseholes, I don't know how to balance the genuinely good things she takes from it with the arseholery.

I'm not looking for permission to let her have the game, and maybe this is a question better suited for the parenting thread. Just trying to figure out how to approach topics like this with a kid.

Our family enjoyed Harry Potter.

Back in 2018, Rowling's bigoted, transphobic views began to become evident. The first instance was her liking a transphobic tweet, which was initially dismissed as a "middle-aged moment" resulting from holding her phone awkwardly (which she has since admitted was a lie).

At that point, I was giving her the benefit of the doubt.

As it became clear that Rowling was, if anything, only becoming more entrenched in her bigotry, we got rid of our copies of her books, and have avoided spending money that would go to her (for reasons well-articulated by others in this thread and elsewhere on the site).

I am deeply disappointed that the new video game has gotten traction with members of this community. It speaks volumes about a person if they're prioritizing a game over the safety and well-being of already-marginalized people.

It doesn't say anything good.

DeThroned wrote:

If any of you know if it's possible to tap our heels together and bring back the GWJ we had 10-15 years ago, please let me know.

The GWJ of 10-15 years ago had a very active thread whose sole purpose was to post pictures of sexy women.

The GWJ of 10-15 years ago also made fun of people who shamed those took "too long" in choosing a tag by using a turn of phrase that was homophobic.

The GWJ of 10-15 years ago is no more. It has grown up.

mudbunny wrote:

And those people know that given the choice of "play game made by a TERF who would gladly exterminate our LGBTQ2A+ members" and "show support to our community members being directly targeted by said TERF", there are members of our community who will gladly go "LOOK!! SEE HOW ALLY I AM!! SO ALLY!! I SAY ALLY!! SEE!! NOW WATCH ME PLAY GAME THAT SUPPORTS A CREATOR THAT WANTS TO EXTERMINATE YOU!!"

Hyperbole is the single greatest thing in the history of the universe.

I am going to assume that I am one of the members you are referring to here, as I believe I was the first one to reject the notion that allyship is based on whether or not one plays this game. I was called out for this and told that I don't get to decide whether others consider me an ally or what criteria they apply.

I accept that. If I have hurt anyone here, I apologize.

For many of our members, it is now less safe.

I realize this is a hot button issue for a lot of people, but I'd like to point out that no one here espoused any anti-trans rhetoric and I would hope that everyone here disagrees with anti-trans bigotry. Having said that, if anything I did say contributed to someone feeling less safe, I apologize for that as well.

And for clarity, I believe that trans women are women; trans men are men; that for some people gender identity is more fluid and identify as non-binary or other sort of non conforming gender; that anyone's sexual preference among consenting adults is nobody else's business; that adults should be able to marry anyone they choose; and that there needs to be a whole lot more compassion and understanding and kindness in the world.

DeThroned wrote:

If I had an opinion on a thread that I didn't agree with, I would just move on.

Nothing you have done or said today has demonstrated this.

DeThroned wrote:

Thanks to that not being done and a few people needing to voice their opinions against the game (which I will again point out was NOT the point of the thread), we now all get punished. Instead of telling those people who chose to use the gaming thread instead of D&D to keep your opinions there, we now have a locked thread and I can't talk about a game that I'm really enjoying.

First of all, there are so many places you can talk about the game. You can post on Twitter. Mastodon. Co-Host. Facebook. The internet is a big, vast place. In this place, we would greatly prefer to value the lives and happiness of our member, many of whom, and I can not stress this enough, would people that JK Rowling would literally like dead.

In the context of that, would you care to reframe how you are "being punished" because it doesn't seem like you are to me. At all.

Secondly, you are framing this discussion as some zero-sum game where people are for and against something, devoid of nuance, with a winning and losing side. When you talk about any creative work, engaging with the ideas, unpacking them, and contextualizing them is inherently useful (and, in other circumstances, even enjoyable!) Its what we should be doing.

This is not to say everything has to get heady or deeply intellectually, but particularly in a case where the text is stuffed with racism, the author wants to exterminate at least one group of people, and an early project lead was a literal fascist, the importance of not ignoring the dog whistles (and in this case, megaphones) is critical. If that makes you feel bad for enjoying the game, if you find that you can't not think about this stuff when you are playing the game, or it bubbles to the surface from time to time, this is a good thing. Congrats, you have a conscience! If you can entirely ignore it and you are unbothered by the fascism, then that's a yikes from me and I wouldn't go around bragging about that.

It must be very convenient for you to live a life where you can stick you head in the sand and ignore this stuff. Many people don't have that option. I get that lots of people want to talk about this game publicly without being judged. Unfortunately for you, you don't get to dictate how others react to you. If it matters to you be unjudged for playing this, don't advertise that you are playing it. If it matters to you to be seen as an ally or to support the right of others to *literally exist*, then don't play it.

All that aside, and to speak more generally, I certainly get that there are people who are navigating the tricky space of either having to play this because it is directly tied to their livelihood (reviewers/streamers/etc.) and the people who have so much of their identity wrapped up in HP that they are tempted to play despite knowing the score. For people like that, my DMs are wide open. Because this isn't a zero-sum game to me.

I will gently suggest that no IP is worth tying your identity to, particularly this one, given the active harm its living creator who directly benefits from the property inflicts on the world. I will add to that that this is a capitalism problem and not necessarily an individual person problem. We are all trained, from a very young age, to identify with brands. (This is why some weirdos are out there fighting about which huge company is "better" MicroSoft or PlayStation as if its a sports match.)

I believe creative people in capitalist systems are very prone to finding the initial escape from the world in creative works that seem to open the door to other possibilities, but part of growing up is unpacking that (as Trichy so elegantly explained in his post about Ender's Game upthread) and finding identity beyond the things you like. (I've written essays about weaponized nostalgia, and how fandoms grow toxic, so I'd be happy to dig into that for anyone interested at another time, but this post is long enough now.)

Toraak wrote:
mudbunny wrote:

And those people know that given the choice of "play game made by a TERF who would gladly exterminate our LGBTQ2A+ members" and "show support to our community members being directly targeted by said TERF", there are members of our community who will gladly go "LOOK!! SEE HOW ALLY I AM!! SO ALLY!! I SAY ALLY!! SEE!! NOW WATCH ME PLAY GAME THAT SUPPORTS A CREATOR THAT WANTS TO EXTERMINATE YOU!!"

Hyperbole is the single greatest thing in the history of the universe.

I am going to assume that I am one of the members you are referring to here, as I believe I was the first one to reject the notion that allyship is based on whether or not one plays this game. I was called out for this and told that I don't get to decide whether others consider me an ally or what criteria they apply.

I accept that. If I have hurt anyone here, I apologize.

For many of our members, it is now less safe.

I realize this is a hot button issue for a lot of people, but I'd like to point out that no one here espoused any anti-trans rhetoric and I would hope that everyone here disagrees with anti-trans bigotry. Having said that, if anything I did say contributed to someone feeling less safe, I apologize for that as well.

And for clarity, I believe that trans women are women; trans men are men; that for some people gender identity is more fluid and identify as non-binary or other sort of non conforming gender; that anyone's sexual preference among consenting adults is nobody else's business; that adults should be able to marry anyone they choose; and that there needs to be a whole lot more compassion and understanding and kindness in the world.

I understand that you don't agree, but from my perspective your allyship seems pretty shallow when you refuse to boycott a game to which the affected community objects. That's great you support trans rights in theory, but in practice you don't seem to be a real ally.

Really you could have just not engaged and no one would have known, but instead you told us you were playing a problematic game and that *you* were fine with it.

Obviously you are more than just a few posts on a gaming forum, but this is literally all we know about you.

Toraak wrote:

Hyperbole is the single greatest thing in the history of the universe.

But its not hyperbole if its true. This story is less than 24 hours old.

The goal of TERFdom is the extermination of trans people. Additionally, to pivot to the other form of bigotry pumping through the heart of the game, there are ideas taken directly from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion baked throughout the narrative and in the world building.

I badly wish people were being hyperbolic, but they aren't. Maybe this will help clarify why this conversation is as upsetting as it is.

Toraak wrote:

I am going to assume that I am one of the members you are referring to here, as I believe I was the first one to reject the notion that allyship is based on whether or not one plays this game. I was called out for this and told that I don't get to decide whether others consider me an ally or what criteria they apply.

I accept that. If I have hurt anyone here, I apologize.

I wasn't calling anyone out in particular.

Toraak wrote:

I realize this is a hot button issue for a lot of people, but I'd like to point out that no one here espoused any anti-trans rhetoric and I would hope that everyone here disagrees with anti-trans bigotry. Having said that, if anything I did say contributed to someone feeling less safe, I apologize for that as well.

No-one here has posted anti-trans rhetoric or bigotry.

But they feel comfortable talking about a game in an IP that is antisemitic and whose creator is actively trying to eradicate trans folk. People are buying a game that is directly enriching JKR.

They are supporting her beliefs and opinions.

For me, it is akin to saying, on one hand, "I am not making any comments that support taking away the right to have abortions" and then also donating to your local GOP candidate.

I think another reason Hogwarts Legacy is getting more pushback compared to older Harry Potter stuff (beyond JKR's abandoning all pretense of being a good person) is that it isn't part of anyone's cherished memories. It's a new story with new characters, just set in the same world. People aren't asking anyone to get rid of the books that meant so much to them growing up, or to never rewatch the movies. Just don't buy the new thing that's only connected to the characters you love by the setting.

I got a PM from someone who apparently misinterpreted what I wrote. I need to make something clear. My inability to uncouple myself from Orson Scott Card for so long was not meant to be a defense of being emotionally tied to a toxic and harmful creator. It's evidence that, despite what I'd like to think of the quality of my own allyship, I still had a long way to go. I went to see the movie Ender's Game in theaters. By doing so, I financially contributed to homophobic legislation that harmed countless individuals. Did I have emotional ties to the property? Absolutely. But it does not change the impact that my choice made.

Buying this game contributes to Rowling's influence, both financial and cultural. Full stop. I don't know what the reason that a person buys this game for, and I can appreciate that there may be a deep connection to the property that I can't truly understand, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE EXTERNAL IMPACT. And it's 100% fair for someone to see you take an action, and say, "Whatever your reason for choosing that path, you should understand the consequences to someone whom you claim to support." The moment you get angry at them for that, you're now actively ignoring the harm your actions cause, and that's not okay.

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