Tabletop RPG Catch All

Also they really didn't need to bother changing it. In my view.

If the vtt is good or even decent they can slowly cut off third party sellers from first party content. Then third party makers will want to be in their market due to the customers. And they get their cut.

Make a new version of dnd or this new reboot and watch the third party stores wither.

Of course that's when they can really turn the screws. Loot boxes for everyone.

I never trusted Hasbro, so them attempting this was in line with what I expected. Them walking it all back is unusual though, so I will now return to buying D&D for the foreseeable future. I prefer their approach to the game over Pathfinder's.

So as someone who has been making content for Level Up (based on the 5e rules) for the last couple years, here's my take:

If you like D&D-style play (and who doesn't, really?) find a system that's owned by someone other than WotC. I'd personally love it if you went with Level Up, but Pathfinder (Paizo), Project Black Flag (Being developed by Kobold Press), C7D20 (Being developed by Cubicle 7), Forbidden Lands or Symbaroum (Free League), MCDM's upcoming game, some OSR game, ANYTHING but the actual D&D brand. WotC has proven themselves to be an untrustworthy, predatory company. Give your money to companies that will treat you better. Do not support Hasbro.

Also: aside from giving up D&D Beyond (which everyone should do anyway) this shouldn't be a sacrifice; all of the best design comes from places other than WotC, and that's been true even for 5e for years now.

Just saw this news.

Anecdata, but I was in my local game store yesterday and the Pathfinder section was wiped out with only a handful of books left. It is always full of books. The D&D section looked unchanged. Take that as you will.

Paizo's books are out of stock in their online store; I don't think it's just anecdata at this point, as I've seen that mentioned online about a number of FLGSs. Hasbro/WOTC have shot themselves in the foot with a *insert ranged weapon of choice*, and I don't think that impact goes away, and it's really going to continue screwing them in the future. I just don't know how they're able to commit to trying to develop some incredibly complex VTT without the kind of market share they've had, so I think it's safe to say this keeps rippling forward and who knows what it means.

I'll readily admit to having been a massive 5e and D&D Beyond fanboy for years; DDB is a fabulous service that has helped my friends and I stay sane over the last three years, and it really has improved my gaming experience in every way. I wanted their VTT to come out, be integrated with D&D Beyond in all sorts of ways, and I was prepared to keep flinging money at them for years to come. Now? Who knows.

Paizo unionized recently, IIRC, so I want to support them. Was seriously considering getting into Starfinder for a space-based RPG.

I like that about Paizo, and, unfortunately, I just don't like Pathfinder as a system. I want to want to play it, but I don't want to play it.

Apparently 2e is a lot different than vanilla Pathfinder, especially with regards to streamlining. And also apparently, Starfinder is somewhere in between the two.

Yall can always wait for my system to come out It has very freeform character creation and should be straightforward to set up. And tools to help encourage improv and collaborative story telling. I just had a burst of inspiration for it regarding environments. I mocked up a 3D model of it that I will share soon.

Hasbro cutting 1,000 jobs (15%) and down 1/3 in value over last five years. Incoming CEO ran WOTC and his whole strategy is digital. They are targeting 50% growth in "digital."

https://investorplace.com/2023/01/ha...

I hate that Hasbro did this. I was all in on 5e and willing to jump to 5.1 or 6e or whatever it ends up being called with a future where I buy a hardcopy and get a digital copy too.

I wanted to be in on the VTT too.

Now they've seen a portion of the damage and backtracked... but I'll be shocked if this isn't the beginning of the end for their dominance. But I do think it will take a large collaborative effort to take the reigns away.

From everything I've heard, pathfinder just isn't quite what I want... I like Kobold Press based on what I have seen them put out... most of the rest I have literally no knowledge of even if I have seen the name around.

manta173 wrote:

I hate that Hasbro did this. I was all in on 5e and willing to jump to 5.1 or 6e or whatever it ends up being called with a future where I buy a hardcopy and get a digital copy too.

I wanted to be in on the VTT too.

Now they've seen a portion of the damage and backtracked... but I'll be shocked if this isn't the beginning of the end for their dominance. But I do think it will take a large collaborative effort to take the reigns away.

From everything I've heard, pathfinder just isn't quite what I want... I like Kobold Press based on what I have seen them put out... most of the rest I have literally no knowledge of even if I have seen the name around.

So this is a good time to start checking out the third party publishers, and a lot of them have made really cool stuff.

A few personal highlights:

1. All four of Kobold Press's monster books (Tome of Beasts, Creature Codex, Tome of Beasts II, and Tome of Beasts III). Monsters are much more appropriate to their CR and they've got everything from the horrifying to the hilarious in there.

2. Ultimate Bestiary: The Dreaded Accursed from Nord Games (currently available in PDF in this bundle). Expands undead out to a much more diverse range of CRs, provides alternate types of liches, mummies, vampires, etc.

3. MCDM's whole product line, particularly Kingdoms and Warfare. I personally liked Strongholds & Followers, too, but that's a less popular opinion. However, with James Introcaso at the head of design, their quality is stratospheric.

4. Heliana's Guide to Monster Hunting. Gorgeous production values and adds Monster Hunter style "kill the boss critter and make sweet gear out of it" systems to the game.

5. Sandy Petersen's Cthulhu Mythos. If you like the mythos monsters, this is a slam dunk. Also comes with a bunch of incredibly cool character options like a dream-based paladin.

6. Level Up: Advanced 5e. A full drop-in replacement for the 5e core rules that adds all kinds of things vanilla 5e is missing such as maneuvers for all martial characters, a strongholds and followers system, prices and crafting rules for magic items, rare spell variants, and a vastly more diverse origins system.

1. All four of Kobold Press's monster books (Tome of Beasts, Creature Codex, Tome of Beasts II, and Tome of Beasts III). Monsters are much more appropriate to their CR and they've got everything from the horrifying to the hilarious in there.

2. Ultimate Bestiary: The Dreaded Accursed from Nord Games (currently available in PDF in this bundle). Expands undead out to a much more diverse range of CRs, provides alternate types of liches, mummies, vampires, etc.

Absolutely 100% recommend these in every way; Kobold Press' books are not only full of interesting monsters, but every single one has full-color art, so the books are just damn fun to look through. I've also got their Vault of Magic book, which has a bunch of hilarious magic items. I like the Deadfall Arrow, which turns into a log when it hits and pins somebody under it. Really good stuff. The Dreaded Accursed is my favorite third-party book; so many excellent Undead monsters, at every CR, and I've used it time and time again. Still feel bad about disintegrating that Paladin with one of the Liches a few months back . . .

MilkmanDanimal wrote:
1. All four of Kobold Press's monster books (Tome of Beasts, Creature Codex, Tome of Beasts II, and Tome of Beasts III). Monsters are much more appropriate to their CR and they've got everything from the horrifying to the hilarious in there.

2. Ultimate Bestiary: The Dreaded Accursed from Nord Games (currently available in PDF in this bundle). Expands undead out to a much more diverse range of CRs, provides alternate types of liches, mummies, vampires, etc.

Absolutely 100% recommend these in every way; Kobold Press' books are not only full of interesting monsters, but every single one has full-color art, so the books are just damn fun to look through. I've also got their Vault of Magic book, which has a bunch of hilarious magic items. I like the Deadfall Arrow, which turns into a log when it hits and pins somebody under it. Really good stuff. The Dreaded Accursed is my favorite third-party book; so many excellent Undead monsters, at every CR, and I've used it time and time again. Still feel bad about disintegrating that Paladin with one of the Liches a few months back . . .

Man, I have a whole excited rant about *just* the liches in Dreaded Accursed. Three different types that each have variants that come in at CRs from around 5 up to 23 or so... the freaking druid liches, man. So good.

manta173 wrote:

I hate that Hasbro did this. I was all in on 5e and willing to jump to 5.1 or 6e or whatever it ends up being called with a future where I buy a hardcopy and get a digital copy too.

I wanted to be in on the VTT too.

Now they've seen a portion of the damage and backtracked... but I'll be shocked if this isn't the beginning of the end for their dominance. But I do think it will take a large collaborative effort to take the reigns away.

From everything I've heard, pathfinder just isn't quite what I want... I like Kobold Press based on what I have seen them put out... most of the rest I have literally no knowledge of even if I have seen the name around.

The last time WotC did this Pathfinder took 3.5 D&D and ran with it. It looks like there's going to be some form of 5e-aligned development going forward with Kobold Press. I'm looking forward to that.

LarryC wrote:
manta173 wrote:

I hate that Hasbro did this. I was all in on 5e and willing to jump to 5.1 or 6e or whatever it ends up being called with a future where I buy a hardcopy and get a digital copy too.

I wanted to be in on the VTT too.

Now they've seen a portion of the damage and backtracked... but I'll be shocked if this isn't the beginning of the end for their dominance. But I do think it will take a large collaborative effort to take the reigns away.

From everything I've heard, pathfinder just isn't quite what I want... I like Kobold Press based on what I have seen them put out... most of the rest I have literally no knowledge of even if I have seen the name around.

The last time WotC did this Pathfinder took 3.5 D&D and ran with it. It looks like there's going to be some form of 5e-aligned development going forward with Kobold Press. I'm looking forward to that. :)

It's more than just Kobold Press. Cubicle 7 is doing the same thing and EN Publishing has already put out Level Up: Advanced 5e (Back in November of 2021) so soon there will be at least three different 5e-derived systems not from WotC that you can use your existing third-party library with. I'm psyched about this! Rather than there being just one competing system like happened with Pathfinder, we're headed for a whole open ecosystem this time around.

The entire set of core rules for Level Up: Advanced 5e is here: https://a5e.tools/
The news about Project Black Flag from Kobold is here: https://koboldpress.com/category/bla...
The C7D20 announcement is here: https://cubicle7games.com/blog/broke...

Also, if you're looking to branch out from D&D, want to stick with d20 fantasy, and aren't excited about Pathfinder, take a look at the following systems:

Shadow of the Demon Lord
Forbidden Lands
13th Age

Timespike wrote:

Rather than there being just one competing system like happened with Pathfinder, we're headed for a whole open ecosystem this time around.

I'm sort of ambivalent about this; my concern is that with too many companies pulling things in too many directions, it winds up splintering into five or six different semi-compatible systems that sort of work together, but not in a particularly balanced way.

But maybe I'm wrong, and even if I'm not, it's still better than things being in the hands of a single de facto monopoly that doesn't understand or care about the community. So we'll see, I guess.

I mean, there's *already* a whole industry of games that aren't like D&D out there.

MikeSands wrote:

I mean, there's *already* a whole industry of games that aren't like D&D out there.

This.

hbi2k wrote:
Timespike wrote:

Rather than there being just one competing system like happened with Pathfinder, we're headed for a whole open ecosystem this time around.

I'm sort of ambivalent about this; my concern is that with too many companies pulling things in too many directions, it winds up splintering into five or six different semi-compatible systems that sort of work together, but not in a particularly balanced way.

But maybe I'm wrong, and even if I'm not, it's still better than things being in the hands of a single de facto monopoly that doesn't understand or care about the community. So we'll see, I guess.

My experience is that the better third-party companies like Kobold, Nord Games, and EN Publishing tend to be better about balance than WotC is, and the 5e math is pretty well-understood at this point. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.

Yeah one thing I realized the design of 5e is not towards balance or any sort of play style. The design is to make it feel like you're playing dungeons and dragons. If they say have to choose removing an unbalanced spell/ability that's a part of the dnd brand/culture. They can't. Cause then it wouldn't be dnd enough.

Course that's what a lot of the market actually wants. It's only after playing dnd for a long time that you'll get fed up and want to try something else. For most people anyway.

In case anyone missed the announcement, Paizo is presenting PDF files of ALL 27 2E PATHFINDER RULE BOOKS in a Humble Bundle for $25. That is not a typo. All the rule books. $25. That also includes one Adventure Path.

I bought their Paizo bundle a few years ago and there is some overlap, but honestly, for that price, I would get it just for the beastiaries alone.

As someone tangentially involved in IP stuff (I am a patent examiner for the federal government of Canada, and we get a **very** brief introduction to copyright), the comment higher up about "flip a coin and spend several million dollars" to figure out whether your "I don't need the OGL, mechanics can't be copyrighted" is 100% accurate. Unlike patents or trademarks (which are relatively easier to figure out most of the time) copyright, especially when it comes to derivatives, comes down to not who is right, but who has the best lawyers (and the money to pay for said best lawyers).

I suspect that is why a lot of people went with the OGL. They looked at it and said "self, I can either go with what randomdude69694200249696 said on ENWorld that mechanics can't be copyrighted and hope that WotC doesn't sue me, or I can follow the OGL, and have a much, much, much higher chance of not getting sued."

And on a different note, despite me not having any time to play RPGs (stupid real life getting in the way), I will probably shell out for the Paizo bundle, if only to support a union shop, and because I like their ORC platform they are pushing, and want to support it.

mudbunny wrote:

And on a different note, despite me not having any time to play RPGs (stupid real life getting in the way), I will probably shell out for the Paizo bundle, if only to support a union shop, and because I like their ORC platform they are pushing, and want to support it.

And purchased. Maybe one day I will find a PbP. Until then...

Just listened to the most recent episode of the 3 Black Halflings podcast where they really didn't hold back in an interview with one of the WotC folks. I am not familiar with this person, but despite the harsh questions I was fairly impressed with what he was able to say and it made me feel better about WotC as a whole.

The hosts didn't agree with me, but as someone that has had to get corporate approval on something as mundane as a tech data sheet, his story makes perfect sense and his anger and frustration with how things went down seemed genuine. It leads me to think that this may have been more Hasbro mandating things get changed and WotC needing to go through them before responding which explains how it fell apart.

The original leaked document was explained as a document edited many times over a long time frame without the wider company getting a look at it. I literally deal with that issue daily at work... so I can understand. I still don't trust the corporate side... but I feel much better about the rest of things. He mentioned specifically that words won't repair trust... WotC intends actions to rebuild the trust.

I don't doubt that the boots-on-the-ground guys at WotC have the best intentions in the world and are just doing their best. It's not them I don't trust.

Is anyone running a Pathfinder 2e game on a VTT like Foundry that I can come watch? I purchased the bundle and want to at least get an idea of the flow of the game before jumping in and running a game.

If you're after something cool and a bit different, a designer I know is kickstarting their new fantasy buddy-cop procedural game, Arcane Crimes Division. Looks very cool.

And now my own crowdfunding campaign is live:

Codex of Worlds is the new supplement for Monster of the Week, bringing you team playbooks and a bunch of new and different settings to play in.