[Discussion] Mass Shootings - Yeah, we need a thread just for this...

This year is the deadliest year ever in terms of mass shootings. In a political climate of polarization, it becomes harder to suss out legitimate information from the misinformation propagated by those with political agendas. Complicating this more is the continual resistance of 2nd amendment advocates to allow for political talk surrounding these massacres. This will involve political discussion to see if there are ways we can all agree might be good ways to prevent mass shootings.

This discussion should involve the details of any current, or future mass shooting, and how they compare to past mass shootings. How are they the same? How are they different? Do gun laws have an impact? Does the race of the shooter affect how we treat them? What makes one a hate crime and one an act or terrorism? Are these shootings the price of freedom?

Police Seek Suspect in Shooting That Killed 10 Near L.A.

LOS ANGELES — Ten people were killed and at least 10 others were injured in a shooting late Saturday night inside a dance venue in Monterey Park, Calif., the authorities said. The gunman, described by the Los Angeles County sheriff only as “a male Asian” somewhere between the ages of 30 and 50, remained at large, the subject of a manhunt by several local and state law enforcement authorities and the F.B.I. The motive in the shooting was still unclear on Sunday morning, officials said.

Here are the details:

The shooting occurred around 10:20 p.m. on West Garvey Avenue, a main thoroughfare of Monterey Park that earlier in the day had hosted a festival celebrating the eve of the Lunar New Year, a major holiday in many Asian communities. Sheriff Robert Luna of Los Angeles County described the shooting as a “most heinous” attack and said, “We need to get this person off the street as soon as possible.”

The sheriff addressed reports that a possibly related incident occurred early Sunday morning in neighboring Alhambra, saying the authorities had reports that people inside a dance hall there had disarmed a suspect, who then fled in a white van. Sheriff Luna warned that details were still hazy, and that it was unclear whether the Alhambra incident was related to the Monterey Park shooting.

Captain Andrew Meyer of the sheriff’s department said that it was too early to say whether the shooting in Monterey Park was racially motivated. “We will look at every angle as far as whether it was a hate crime or not,” he added. Five men and five women were killed, the authorities said.

I seem to recall there was a similar shooting a while back where a pro-PRC shooter killed a bunch of folks who were vocal about Taiwanese independence. This smells like it might have a similar motive.

Paleocon wrote:

I seem to recall there was a similar shooting a while back where a pro-PRC shooter killed a bunch of folks who were vocal about Taiwanese independence. This smells like it might have a similar motive.

Took me a good 10 minutes to find it, but yes, this is the shooting you're talking about.

A Las Vegas man suspected in Sunday’s shooting that left one person dead and five others injured at a meeting of Asian churchgoers in Southern California was motivated by political tensions between China and Taiwan, authorities said Monday.

David Chou, 68, has been booked into jail on recommended charges of one count of murder and five counts of attempted murder, the Orange County Sheriff’s Department said in a statement.

Word on the wires is that the suspect in last night's shooting shot himself during a traffic stop though.

He shot himself just a couple of miles from where I live, which is just bananas.

Old enough to have fought in Vietnam.

So, uh... there was apparently another one in California today, in a place called "Half Moon Bay"? At least seven dead?

And the suspect appears to be another 65+ Asian man?

What the hell is going on?

Two mass shootings two days apart in the same state and with the suspects and victims in the same demographics. That's pretty damn peculiar.

Prederick wrote:

So, uh... there was apparently another one in California today, in a place called "Half Moon Bay"?

About 30 miles down the coast from San Francisco. Great British pub there.

Prederick wrote:

So, uh... there was apparently another one in California today, in a place called "Half Moon Bay"? At least seven dead?

And the suspect appears to be another 65+ Asian man?

What the hell is going on?

ahem one was Vietnamese, this guy is Chinese. Not a pattern.

There's also the allegations from the first shooting that it might have been misogyny/IPV motivated while upon cursory and preliminary glance the second may be a workplace related crime.

Edit: But, the important through line through these two and all the ones covered in this thread so far is a man with a gun.

The San Fran one looks workplace related, plant nursery. No connection whatsoever except angry old men (likely with mental issues) who had access to guns.

I wish these old Asian men would think and realize that there are no breaks from representing your race when you're a minority. When a white dude shoots up a dance studio, he's just a crazy dude. When an Asian dude shoots up a dance studio, he's a crazy ASIAN dude.

Security experts say ‘run, hide, fight’ tactic in active shootings may be outdated

New active shooter guidance may be necessary in age of increased shootings and advanced weaponry, experts say

The “run, hide, fight” guidance has been used for decades, but Kayyem, who also served as a former security official under the Obama administration and now is the faculty chair of the homeland-security program at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, said the increased frequency of shootings and more advanced weaponry may necessitate amended guidance.

“Things have changed. There’s more mass shootings, the weaponry is faster, it’s more deadly, a lot of damage can be done in a little period of time. And as we’ve seen in some cases, we can’t totally depend on law enforcement,” Kayyem said.

Or you know... You could get rid of the f*cking thing that is being used to commit these things.

I think the last few years have proven the cops will not save you they can only hurt you.

I was talking to some older family member who brought the shootings up as they wanted to figure out what is causing this and what the system can do to fix this. Whether it be mental help, background checks, and so on.

It was the same few thing everyone always brings up but never happen.

But I grew up with school shooter drills so maybe that's why my view on this is tear it all down and start over.

The guns aren't the problem, they're just an enabler to the problem.

The problem is the culture that leads young men to expect themselves to be the main character and lash out when they feel they're not getting that expectation met.

(Atlantic article, apologies if paywalled)

Why is this happening? What are we missing? Guns and anomie and extremism are only facets of the problem. The real malady afflicting these men, one about which I’ve written much in the intervening years since that original article, is the deluge of narcissism in the modern world, especially among failed-to-launch young men whose injured grandiosity leads them to blame others for their own shortcomings and insecurities—and to seek revenge

Sadly, that's an even tougher nut to crack than"simply" reducing access to firearms.

Jonman wrote:

The guns aren't the problem, they're just an enabler to the problem.

The problem is the culture that leads young men to expect themselves to be the main character and lash out when they feel they're not getting that expectation met.

(Atlantic article, apologies if paywalled)

Why is this happening? What are we missing? Guns and anomie and extremism are only facets of the problem. The real malady afflicting these men, one about which I’ve written much in the intervening years since that original article, is the deluge of narcissism in the modern world, especially among failed-to-launch young men whose injured grandiosity leads them to blame others for their own shortcomings and insecurities—and to seek revenge

Sadly, that's an even tougher nut to crack than"simply" reducing access to firearms.

Interesting and something I hadn't considered. The whole cult of individualism and nihilistic approach toward systems and society definitely plays into a large part of that mentality. It almost feels like it is an unspoken American right to (at least white men) be allowed to disregard the general welfare or deliberately endanger ohters just for the lulz.

I don't usually venture in the political forum but the above post seems very very simplistic and also seems to wilfully ignore the basic problem. Young men are unhappy. Young women are unhappy. Our lifestyle promotes unhappiness. Phones, screens and lack of real world interaction promotes unhappiness. Bad actors use this lifestyle to profit off of our unhappiness. We need to be outside in the real world. Trees, rivers, oceans mountains and fields. Our minds need to be in the natural world to be healthy. A great side effect of being in the real world is that it promotes physical activity and fitness which help keep a mind healthy.

Add in the bleak prospects of any young person trying to make a start and you have a bonfire waiting to happen. I have two sons about to enter the world at large and I can tell you it makes me sad to even think about how bleak it is. Even with a great jobs and everything going their way they'll be lucky to be able to live on their own in the forseeable future.

As a society we need to make people hopeful and happy again. That will take care of a lot of the anti-social crap that goes on...not all of it because there will always be people who are lost. But happy people get found a lot more often.

Homard wrote:

I don't usually venture in the political forum but the above post seems very very simplistic and also seems to wilfully ignore the basic problem. Young men are unhappy. Young women are unhappy. Our lifestyle promotes unhappiness. Phones, screens and lack of real world interaction promotes unhappiness. Bad actors use this lifestyle to profit off of our unhappiness. We need to be outside in the real world. Trees, rivers, oceans mountains and fields. Our minds need to be in the natural world to be healthy. A great side effect of being in the real world is that it promotes physical activity and fitness which help keep a mind healthy.

Add in the bleak prospects of any young person trying to make a start and you have a bonfire waiting to happen. I have two sons about to enter the world at large and I can tell you it makes me sad to even think about how bleak it is. Even with a great jobs and everything going their way they'll be lucky to be able to live on their own in the forseeable future.

As a society we need to make people hopeful and happy again. That will take care of a lot of the anti-social crap that goes on...not all of it because there will always be people who are lost. But happy people get found a lot more often.

You're not wrong, but....

Young women aren't gunning down kids in schools, and it's not because they go for more hikes in the woods.

This is not an ungendered issue.

Agreed, males have always been and will always be more violent. It's in our makeup. Anyone who thinks otherwise is never going to begin to solve this problem. We need to figure it out. We need outlets for male aggression. Nihilism comes from a lack of hope. Men getting together and doing men things is good and fosters hope. In my personal experience I would argue that lack of physical engagement is hurting males much more than females.

Women's unhappiness comes through in different ways that also hurt our society. Anecdotally, I see males in my community killing themselves and being destructive when depression comes calling. I see women withdrawing and segregating themselves from society. They both hurt everyone and we need to try to fix them whenever we can.

Honestly, I think we're seeing the inevitable result of a society that:

1) Is driven by individualism over collectivism
2) Is built upon capitalism first and foremost over all other considerations
3) Is ostensibly secular but is in practice devoted to legal precedents that are too often rooted in a specifically punitive set of religious values

Edit: d'oh lost track of which thread I'm in; I'm not only referring just to our issues with violence.

Men aren’t “inherently” anything, the problems are cultural and stem largely from the fact that it’s profitable to keep society atomized and uncertain, part of that is instilling unhealthy and toxic attitudes about gender roles in society. That’s what we’re seeing the fruits of. “Men are like this” or “people just need to get in touch with nature” is overly simplistic and is, if anything, only contributing to the problem.

Young men aren't shooting up schools and workplaces in other developed countries though. Yes, the patriarchy and misogyny is a problem. But gun deaths are caused by GUNS. Let's fix the one thing we can quickly fix, banning the assault rifles, and then work on men's mental health because that's going to take decades.

Stele wrote:

Young men aren't shooting up schools and workplaces in other developed countries though. Yes, the patriarchy and misogyny is a problem. But gun deaths are caused by GUNS. Let's fix the one thing we can quickly fix, banning the assault rifles, and then work on men's mental health because that's going to take decades.

How do we quickly ban assault rifles? I'd focus on the mental health first, cuz decades will still be sooner than we get reasonable gun control in this country.

Chairman_Mao wrote:
Stele wrote:

Young men aren't shooting up schools and workplaces in other developed countries though. Yes, the patriarchy and misogyny is a problem. But gun deaths are caused by GUNS. Let's fix the one thing we can quickly fix, banning the assault rifles, and then work on men's mental health because that's going to take decades.

How do we quickly ban assault rifles? I'd focus on the mental health first, cuz decades will still be sooner than we get reasonable gun control in this country.

This so much.

I can't read the article because of the paywall, but it's Tom Nichols, so I'm going to assume that it's his usual National Review-by-way-of-The Atlantic "it's our uniquely depraved modern culture that's abandoned traditional values, not the guns" fare.

Got a mail-flyer for a new local gun warehouse. Side one: Crime is up! Don't be a victim! Be one of the good guys!
Side two: Biden administration wants to ban "assault rifles," large capacity magazines! On sale and in stock: "Assault Rifles" and large capacity magazines!

The threat of a ban is a marketing prop.

Chairman_Mao wrote:
Stele wrote:

Young men aren't shooting up schools and workplaces in other developed countries though. Yes, the patriarchy and misogyny is a problem. But gun deaths are caused by GUNS. Let's fix the one thing we can quickly fix, banning the assault rifles, and then work on men's mental health because that's going to take decades.

How do we quickly ban assault rifles? I'd focus on the mental health first, cuz decades will still be sooner than we get reasonable gun control in this country.

They were banned 20 years ago. Undoing 20 years of lobbying is a lot easier than a couple thousand years of patriarchy.

Stele wrote:
Chairman_Mao wrote:
Stele wrote:

Young men aren't shooting up schools and workplaces in other developed countries though. Yes, the patriarchy and misogyny is a problem. But gun deaths are caused by GUNS. Let's fix the one thing we can quickly fix, banning the assault rifles, and then work on men's mental health because that's going to take decades.

How do we quickly ban assault rifles? I'd focus on the mental health first, cuz decades will still be sooner than we get reasonable gun control in this country.

They were banned 20 years ago. Undoing 20 years of lobbying is a lot easier than a couple thousand years of patriarchy.

I think that the time such policies have existed bears no relation to how easy they are to turn over. It really depends on the political will in the moment, as well as the alleged "constitutionality" of that policy. For guns, the advantage in both of those categories lies with the right.

But on mental health, I do feel like there is some will on both sides of the aisle to address it. So it becomes more a question of how, rather than if. I'm sure I won't like a lot of the ways the right wants to address it, but at least there is room for compromise there. Until the left gets back control of all three branches, I don't see gun control moving much at a national level.