hbi2k wrote:I love what Paizo is doing with the licensing situation, and hate everything I've seen of Pathfinder 2.0 and Starfinder.
For what it's worth PF2 is a much different game than PF1. Still really crunchy but they addressed a lot of the design issues with the system, including the buffing problem you talked about. It's got its issues but it's a really tight system now.
Starfinder is still Starfinder.
Yeah, I've leafed through the rulebook, and based on what I've seen, 2.0 is better than 1.0 was, but still two steps forward one step back. I like what they did with the action economy, I hate that a large part of character-building still involves overly complex feat trees.
But that's just white-room theorizing from someone who's leafed through the rulebook but never actually played a session, so take it for that and no more. I'm glad folks are enjoying it.
Ultimately I join TTRPG groups for the group, not the system, so if there's a group I want to join I'll adjust to the DM's preferred system unless I REALLY hate it. It's why I played the PF1.0 campaign despite preferring 5e; it was folks I wanted to play with, I pitched 5e, the DM wanted PF because it's what he was used to, I caved, we adjusted until we found a balance of "how closely do we hew to these rules" that worked for the group. It all worked out in the end, still one of my favorite campaigns I've ever played, just despite the system rather than because of it.
Mixolyde wrote:Kronen wrote:This Opening Arguments podcast is worth a listen before jumping off into the weeds with that Gizmodo article. It's refreshing to have this legal team break down the differences between OGLs and the misrepresentations in the article.
Came here to post this as well. Well worth everyone's time to listen to a breakdown by an actual lawyer who doesn't have an axe to grind or a clickbait incentive.
I'm curious, but it would be nice to know the podcast's biases before I go in. I mean, "Critical Hit Piece," solid word play, but that does look like they sure do have a clickbait incentive.
The lawyer did a nice job of laying out any possible conflict of interest on the subject matter in the opening statement before delving into the factual errors in the article.
Generally speaking, the podcast is a left-leaning legal analysis show with a heavy influence from left atheist circles. They believe in stare decisis and find the humorous silver linings as they debunk weaponized versions of originalism, objectivism, and libertarianism.
Paleocon wrote:DnD's success has everything to do with ease of entry. It doesn't require players to purchase anything at start. Its rules are pretty simple.
I agree with the first part. But I think the ease of entry is more about how it's become familiar in pop culture, rather than actually being easy to play. It also has the "designed by committee for wide appeal" thing going on, which makes it accessible in some ways but limiting or shallow in others.
I am constantly boggled, also, by people who say D&D 5th edition is a simple rule set. It is not. It's fairly complicated and involved, and has exceptions and gotchas all through it. On top of that there's a lot of cognitive load (especially for the DM), making it hard work to actually play.
As a data point, I think I have about 150 roleplaying games on the shelf next to me, and I'd say only 10 that are equal or greater in rules complexity to D&D 5. That's my taste as much as anything (there are also plenty more very complex games out there), but it certainly demonstrates that there's no shortage of systems that are simpler.
I am actively interested in your opinion on other viable D&D replacements... I like the style of world and variety of options, but also like to feel like a badass. I like rolling cool dice too. Does that narrow it down?
I know the second part here is the big ask... but assuming its not pathfinder... I feel like I need relatively simple systems or low barrier to entry and some name recognition so I can get others on board.
I am actively interested in your opinion on other viable D&D replacements... I like the style of world and variety of options, but also like to feel like a badass. I like rolling cool dice too. Does that narrow it down?
I know the second part here is the big ask... but assuming its not pathfinder... I feel like I need relatively simple systems or low barrier to entry and some name recognition so I can get others on board.
Sure, manta173.
First, one warning: I'm very uninterested in the "generic D&D" style of game at the moment so my recommendations aren't really going to be the best there. If I'm playing something in that style, I'll want either something gritty and dangerous or a more focused fantasy game.
And name recognition is just not going to be there for many of these. Nobody else has the presence in culture that D&D has.
That said, some recommendations!
Simple, D&D-adjacent fantasy:
* Stonetop (community centered, but not yet finished)
* Index Card RPG (fast paced)
* Into The Odd or Electric Bastionland (two different perspectives on the same weird world and system)
More complex D&D-adjacent fantasy (but still simpler or on par with D&D):
* Forbidden Lands (exploration, monsters, lots of neat options)
* The Nightmares Underneath (old school D&D style with Persian flavour)
* Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha (fantasy adventures with a strong focus on community, culture, and religion in a very detailed world)
* The One Ring (if you want to just go totally into Tolkien)
Totally different but great (and all simpler than D&D):
* Alien (great simple system that builds tension like the films) (side note: any of Fria Ligan's other year zero engine games can also work here: Tales From The Loop, Vaesen, Mutant: Year Zero, Bladerunner, etc if those settings appeal more)
* Spire (dark elf revolutionaries fighting against the high elven oppressors)
* Apocalypse World (straight Mad Max style post apocalyptic action)
* Wanderhome (anthropomorphic animals go on cozy pilgrimage, meet interesting people and visit interesting places)
* Agon (bronze age heroes on a journey home encounter strange islands and monsters, gaining glory along the way, in the style of the Odyssey)
Thanks for the write up. I'll look into those with my group.
Based on your write up I'm thinking Forbidden Lands may be top billing. I know lots of folks are burnt out on Tolkein-esque stuff... but I've never gotten enough of it. Combine Tolkein with more variety of creatures and more readily available magic... and I am there for years.
SpacePProtean wrote:Mixolyde wrote:Kronen wrote:This Opening Arguments podcast is worth a listen before jumping off into the weeds with that Gizmodo article. It's refreshing to have this legal team break down the differences between OGLs and the misrepresentations in the article.
Came here to post this as well. Well worth everyone's time to listen to a breakdown by an actual lawyer who doesn't have an axe to grind or a clickbait incentive.
I'm curious, but it would be nice to know the podcast's biases before I go in. I mean, "Critical Hit Piece," solid word play, but that does look like they sure do have a clickbait incentive.
The lawyer did a nice job of laying out any possible conflict of interest on the subject matter in the opening statement before delving into the factual errors in the article.
Generally speaking, the podcast is a left-leaning legal analysis show with a heavy influence from left atheist circles. They believe in stare decisis and find the humorous silver linings as they debunk weaponized versions of originalism, objectivism, and libertarianism.
Yeah the "opening arguments" guy both posted an extremely exaggerated bullshit tweet to drum up listeners for his podcast AND tried to send pitchfork wielding followers after Linda Codega. AND he was working with out of date information (i'd already been sent a copy of the leaked updated OGL 2.0 FAQ at the point he made that tweet), so..., in short, f*ck that piece of shit.
Also the Legal Eagle video is well meaning but extremely flawed in points. Specifically when covering the fact that you don't NEED the contents of the OGL, you can just rewrite everything and you're good.
Which...is *technically* true.
However the language that 5e content is written in is specifically standardised to use the wording provided by the SRD and changing that up causes far more problems than it's worth (it could accidentally change the meaning of a rule, or cause some other unexpected issue, not to mention readers need to be able to easily parse the content in a way they are used to or they will give up on it).
It also takes MUCH longer to do. Rewriting statblocks and spells and new versions magic items and so on and so on takes time and money.
Effectively, the language used in the OGL is deeply tied to 5e in a way that means separating the two would be so much work then at that point you're as well writing your own game from scratch anyway.
Was watching Matt Colville's twitch stream and he mentioned he talked to his lawyers about what it would take to contest it or if it went to court. Basically they told him it would be a fifty fifty coin flip to win or lose. And probable cost around a million dollars in legal fees. Possible more if you lose.
That's a pretty nightmare scenario.
Next update btw:
solid rumours of a $30 (per player) subscription for D&DBeyond at the highest tier.
Deauthorised OGL 1.0a (as before)
Homebrew banned at the base tiers on D&DBeyond
"Stripped down gameplay AI DM's"
Essentially : It's going full "live service" mode, and you can probably expect them to stop printing physical books in lieu of digital-only, sold piecemeal.
If you've not already cancelled your D&DBeyond subscriptions. Might be a good time to do that, otherwise you'll be paying a LOT more for it soon (or losing access to features).
Fun aside: so far the unsubs have theoretically cost wotc 1.2% of their profits for the year.
I can sort of sympathize with a corp wanting to be able to make sure that their IP can't be used to make Nazis In Space and I'm not clear on how many companies are using the OGL for creating other cash cows (Netflix? Bioware? Paizo?). Does anyone know if Netflix pays Hasbro for Stranger Things? What about the videogames that rely on "the d20 system" are they paying Hasbro? Should they? Is Pathfinder using the OGL to sell their books?
I haven't been able to find straight answers to these questions.
Excellent recommendations above
Mike is too modest and has left out my favorite entry into the Powered by the Apocalypse universe where you get to feel like a scooby gang of cool badasses, Monster of the Week, a game that he made.
MikeSands wrote:Excellent recommendations above
Mike is too modest and has left out my favorite entry into the Powered by the Apocalypse universe where you get to feel like a scooby gang of cool badasses, Monster of the Week, a game that he made. :D
Thank you! Partly that was modesty, but mostly that it's not really in that standard fantasy style of the request Definitely happy for you all to check it out and buy a copy!
Thanks for the write up. I'll look into those with my group.
Based on your write up I'm thinking Forbidden Lands may be top billing. I know lots of folks are burnt out on Tolkein-esque stuff... but I've never gotten enough of it. Combine Tolkein with more variety of creatures and more readily available magic... and I am there for years.
Yep, Forbidden Lands is a really different sort of fantasy in a lot of ways, but also has some familiar touchstones. It's got a few rough edges but I've always had loads of fun playing it.
I can sort of sympathize with a corp wanting to be able to make sure that their IP can't be used to make Nazis In Space and I'm not clear on how many companies are using the OGL for creating other cash cows (Netflix? Bioware? Paizo?). Does anyone know if Netflix pays Hasbro for Stranger Things? What about the videogames that rely on "the d20 system" are they paying Hasbro? Should they? Is Pathfinder using the OGL to sell their books?
I haven't been able to find straight answers to these questions.
I don't have answers, but I def have pepe silvia level opinions I'll probably bring up in an upcoming gwjcc on this. A lot of this is influenced by copyright and trademark panic kerfuffles kicked up by the aforementioned nazis, fascists, N*FTs, cr*pto scams, and other forms of digital destabilization intersecting with rampant late-stage capitalism. Teams across many multiple media platforms are currently reworking their whole content policies to accommodate tighter monetization and intellectual property rights claims, and it's having a bit of a ripple effect across various forms of media, communication, and entertainment.
Electric Bastionland looks so cool and weird and I wish I had tome to read it and play it with people. Have you seen any good actual play shows of it?
what happens to the digital content I have purchased on DnDBeyond if I cancel my subscription?
Top_Shelf wrote:I can sort of sympathize with a corp wanting to be able to make sure that their IP can't be used to make Nazis In Space and I'm not clear on how many companies are using the OGL for creating other cash cows (Netflix? Bioware? Paizo?). Does anyone know if Netflix pays Hasbro for Stranger Things? What about the videogames that rely on "the d20 system" are they paying Hasbro? Should they? Is Pathfinder using the OGL to sell their books?
I haven't been able to find straight answers to these questions.
I don't have answers, but I def have pepe silvia level opinions I'll probably bring up in an upcoming gwjcc on this. A lot of this is influenced by copyright and trademark panic kerfuffles kicked up by the aforementioned nazis, fascists, N*FTs, cr*pto scams, and other forms of digital destabilization intersecting with rampant late-stage capitalism. Teams across many multiple media platforms are currently reworking their whole content policies to accommodate tighter monetization and intellectual property rights claims, and it's having a bit of a ripple effect across various forms of media, communication, and entertainment.
I would listen the hell out of that episode, especially with the wide lens you are talking about here.
Electric Bastionland looks so cool and weird and I wish I had tome to read it and play it with people. Have you seen any good actual play shows of it?
I can’t think of any shows, but the rules themselves only amount to about 6 pages of the book, so it’s definitely easy to learn (although builds a lot on your previous rpg knowledge). Most of the book is the failed profession descriptions and ideas for weird stuff to find.
what happens to the digital content I have purchased on DnDBeyond if I cancel my subscription?
Stays there... like buying a movie on prime or google... I don't have a sub, but recently bought fizbans for the various things I wanted to play with... Regret not getting the physical copy now...
I can sort of sympathize with a corp wanting to be able to make sure that their IP can't be used to make Nazis In Space and I'm not clear on how many companies are using the OGL for creating other cash cows (Netflix? Bioware? Paizo?). Does anyone know if Netflix pays Hasbro for Stranger Things? What about the videogames that rely on "the d20 system" are they paying Hasbro? Should they? Is Pathfinder using the OGL to sell their books?
I haven't been able to find straight answers to these questions.
The line about updating the OGL to prevent misuse and bigotry definitely sounds good on paper...but Wotc included a literal slave race in one of their most recent books, and Hasbro still merrily mint their own NFTs for transformers and other brands, so this is almost entirely lip service to make the rest of the changes seem better. This is about controlling the flow of content more than the actual CONTENT, as it were.
The number of third parties that rely on the OGL is HUGE, as 5e is currently the most popular TTRPG by an astronomical amount (and thus, easiest for 3rd party folks to make a living off of) so this is a BIG deal. Paizo is certainly probably the largest ongoing benefactor of this after spinning of 3.5 into Pathfinder. However, Pathfinder 2, doesn't rely on the OGL and future printings of the books will be removing it completely, so generally speaking they wont be affected by this.
Stuff like Netflix and Bioware games will have been under a separate deal, not the OGL, so they wouldn't have been affected in the slightest.
Who this DOES affect, is smaller publishers (usually only one or two people) and literally anyone who has made 3rd party content for D&D, from youtubers and artists up to publishers like Kobold Press, Green Ronin, etc. Freeleague, Chaosium and Monte Cook also have 5e books that this would have affected. Until we see an actual final version of OGL 2.0 then it'll be impossible to tell exactly, but it sounds like they backed off of retroactively charging for OGL 1.0 stuff, so back catalogues *should* be ok, but I think at this point literally everyone is either starting their own OGL or divesting themselves of anything 5e related just to be sure.
Oh, also It's important to note that HASBRO see a huge difference between D&D the tabletop game, and D&D the brand. They are ONLY interested in the latter and internal emails have made it very clear that they despise their own customers for getting in the way of their money via the former. I would not be surprised if they were quite happy to burn the tabletop game to the ground if it meant they could focus on movies, tv shows and branded merchandise)
* Ultimately, most people assume that this is because wotc are preparing "one D&D" to go full digital. No books. all microtransaction heavy "live services" through D&D Beyond, and they're cleaning house to make sure that they control all aspects of the content created for D&D.
They are gambling pretty much everything on the idea that everyone is moving to playing online (after they got badly burnt by not "exploiting the pandemic" to their own benefit), so they want to fully control and wall off the means through which they can do that. And that CAN'T happen, if third parties are still able to produce content they don't control.
So yeah, in summary. If you like D&D and want it to remain a free and open game you can play at your home table for a reasonable cost, then (a) cancel your D&DBeyond subs - this is the ONLY fast metric Hasbro and wotc are using to track popularity of their decisions and (b) DO NOT go to see the D&D Movie and tell other folks to boycott it too.
I would advise just getting a 5e set - DMG, MM, PHB, Xanathar's, and Tasha's. Don't bother with the rest. Lots of excellent third party content. We're seeing the last days of this edition, and probably a long hibernation for D&D. Pathfinder parleyed the last blunder of D&D into their own brand and that was before they got as much street cred and capital as they have now. If they come out with a new system that adheres close to 5e and elegantly solves system problems and fills in the gaps, the D&D brand could be done for.
It could be done for, anyway. PbtA is pretty popular.
I picked up a pdf of all of the Pathfinder 2E sourcebooks a few years ago when it was on Humble Bundle. Back then folks mostly told me it was too "crunchy" to play. Looks like opinions are mostly completely reversing now. I guess it is time to break it out.
PF2 is supposed to be a lot better than PF1 in terms of crunch.
I'm actually excited to see this new batch of 5e replacements this fiasco has birthed - whatever MCDM is working on, Kobold Press's new Project Black Flag and whatever comes out of the new ORC.
Freeleague is also working on a proper OGL for Year Zero stuff, which is very exciting because I LOVE Year Zero based games!
The Uncaged team might also be looking at doing a few interesting things with zine-sized adventure anthologies...
Reports are 40,000 people have canceled D&D Beyond subscriptions. Don't know how big a percentage that is, but, man, that's a lot of nerd rage. I suspect the D&D movie will tank as well, and somebody will one day write a long "Jason Schreier Mass Effect-ish" article on how some asshat at Hasbro drove a really beloved game and community into the dirt.
I think someone worked out that it's cost them 1.2% of the profit they made last year (about $2,800,000)
and somebody will one day write a long "Jason Schreier Mass Effect-ish" article on how some asshat at Hasbro drove a really beloved game and community into the dirt.
If you're not following Linda Codega's reporting on Gizmodo, you should be, they are knocking it out of the park as far as reporting on this as it unfolds.
Appreciate the write up, Pyxi.
I'm very distrustful of WOTC given what I've seen with Magic and this move is directly in line with what's been going on over there.
It's puzzling from even a business standpoint as they clearly don't understand the value proposition of D&D and seem to want it to be a different product.
they clearly don't understand the value proposition of D&D and seem to want it to be a different product.
I am not sure WotC have ever grasped that or not struggled with it since buying TSR way back when.
Lots of D&D/TSR franchises have been squandered:
Crimson Skies, Dark Sun, Al Qadim
Don't Dark Sun and Al Qadim have significant social issues that make a modern release difficult?
Dark Sun requires a deft touch because it involves a lot of sensitive topics. Having said that, it does portray slavers and slavery in a universally negative light. I suspect it’d attract a ton of neo Nazi sympathizers to it, though, who may want to use the setting to promote racist ideologies. It’s also dramatically and quite specifically a post-apocalyptic world that was destroyed by climate change so…
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