Star Wars Misc. Catch-All

I rewatched Rogue One last night. It's a film I have a complicated relationship with (Tony Gilroy is credited as co-writer of the screenplay). I like parts of it (mostly the cast, and the basic concept), and am frustrated by so much else. It's too disjointed at the start, the character arcs seem unearned, the "hope" theme is really crowbarred into the script and the plot doesn't really make sense. There's too much and too little at the same time. It was obviously mangled by studio interference.

I wonder what it would take to make it into something of the same calibre as Andor, and most of my problems with would be improved if it had been a 12 episode series instead.

DudleySmith wrote:

It was obviously mangled by studio interference.

I've always had the opinion that it was less studio interference and more the studio trying to save it. Gary Witta and Gareth Edwards made the film originally and it was a mess. Then Tony Gilroy was brought in during the reshoots to make it make sense. It's fun to watch Rogue One's original trailer and trying to see everything that's missing from the final film.

Norfair wrote:
DudleySmith wrote:

It was obviously mangled by studio interference.

I've always had the opinion that it was less studio interference and more the studio trying to save it. Gary Witta and Gareth Edwards made the film originally and it was a mess. Then Tony Gilroy was brought in during the reshoots to make it make sense. It's fun to watch Rogue One's original trailer and trying to see everything that's missing from the final film.

We can only speculate (unless you know for sure), but I'd like to think I'd prefer the coherent flawed film than a highly reshot film that becomes incoherent. They obviously brought in that risible Bor Gullet thing as part of the reshoots - Forest Whitaker was bald in the original shoot I think. I really like Edwards' Monsters and Godzilla (2014). Maybe Whitta's script was wrong - I'm not a fan of any of his films he's scripted if I'm honest.

DSGamer wrote:

a “crime boss” had a gang of like 6 people and would usually take orders from them.

That actually is my one sticking criticism so far with Andor. Yes there is a large Imperial intelligence working group, but Blevins is responsible for managing analysis for several sectors and his staff is like 3 guys? Same with Dedra…she’s got one, two junior analysts working for her. That’s not how the CIA or NSA or DIA or any of those agencies, or even basic military intelligence units work.

Let the man touch Jabba already.

He's Yabba now

I miss Andor.

kazar wrote:

Chills

I waited until all the episodes were out before starting Andor and took my time going through it an episode or two a night. I just finished it.

As someone who has loved Star Wars ever since seeing the original in the movie theater at age 5 in 1977, this show is better than any Star Wars show has a right to be. It's a frickin masterpiece. There may be other Star Wars stuff that I love more than Andor, but there's nothing I can say that's better than this.

UpToIsomorphism wrote:

I miss Andor. :(

Have been listening to the Andor episodes of https://amorecivilizedage.net/ --so so so so good, except like for like all like the like use like of the like abuse of like the word like, like.

IMAGE(https://media.tenor.com/dlLdNF3Z-CUAAAAd/the-big-lebowski-thats-like-your-opinion-man.gif)

Keithustus wrote:
UpToIsomorphism wrote:

I miss Andor. :(

Have been listening to the Andor episodes of https://amorecivilizedage.net/ --so so so so good, except like for like all like the like use like of the like abuse of like the word like, like.

Yes, it is one of the very few Patreons I patron.

Spoiler:

They miss Andor too.

Yes, it is one of the very few Patreons I patron.

My list is actually a bit alarmingly long, but it's definitely my favorite among them.

Finished episode 6 of Andor, and we're bouncing off of it. My wife doesn't even care to continue. Not sure yet if I will either...

Is it just me? I was probably taken in by all the glowing praise for the show (which happens to me all the time) but we're finding it verrrrry slow and quite dull. I also don't really care about any of the characters - except maybe Luthen. I especially don't like the Mon Mothma domestic problems storyline. How about some more scenes around her trying to start the rebellion? Some more dramatic tension around trying to subvert a government while still pretending to be a part of it?

Lastly, it just doesn't feel at all like a Star Wars show to me. Star Wars always has some form of adventure. Some excitement or fun. I don't know if it's the pacing, the music, or what but this iteration just seems joyless and soulless to me.

Big bummer.

PaladinTom wrote:

Finished episode 6 of Andor, and we're bouncing off of it. My wife doesn't even care to continue. Not sure yet if I will either...

Is it just me? I was probably taken in by all the glowing praise for the show (which happens to me all the time) but we're finding it verrrrry slow and quite dull. I also don't really care about any of the characters - except maybe Luthen. I especially don't like the Mon Mothma domestic problems storyline. How about some more scenes around her trying to start the rebellion? Some more dramatic tension around trying to subvert a government while still pretending to be a part of it?

Lastly, it just doesn't feel at all like a Star Wars show to me. Star Wars always has some form of adventure. Some excitement or fun. I don't know if it's the pacing, the music, or what but this iteration just seems joyless and soulless to me.

Big bummer.

The reason I like the show so much is that it is much more grounded then any other Star Wars show. It's not about romanticizing adventure, it's about the banality of an oppressive dictatorship and the moral compromises the resistance has to make. Yeah, it's joyless because the stories it's telling do not have a lot of opportunity for joy. I love the different feel and seeing so much depth added to what has always been set dressing.

"How about some more scenes around her trying to start the rebellion? Some more dramatic tension around trying to subvert a government while still pretending to be a part of it?"

That's her whole storyline, played very subtly and intensely. Do you not feel there is any dramatic tension there?

FlamingPeasant wrote:

The reason I like the show so much is that it is much more grounded then any other Star Wars show. It's not about romanticizing adventure, it's about the banality of an oppressive dictatorship and the moral compromises the resistance has to make. Yeah, it's joyless because the stories it's telling do not have a lot of opportunity for joy. I love the different feel and seeing so much depth added to what has always been set dressing.

I guess I’m not looking for a joyless Star War. I don’t necessarily need lightsabers and flips, but a bit more action would bring some excitement for me at least.

FlamingPeasant wrote:

Do you not feel there is any dramatic tension there?

No, there isn’t. At least not yet in the episodes I’ve seen so far beyond one scene with her and Luthen. If that’s her story arc then they’re doing the slow-walk stretch-it-out thing that tons of shows do nowadays.

Now that I think about it some more, I think I expected this show to be more about how Cassian got to be the shady cut-throat side of the rebellion - where he was at the beginning of Rogue One where he’d sooner gun down an informant than threaten the cause. I found it interesting in that movie that the rebellion weren’t all goody-goody and sometimes had to make some hard choices.

Instead, it’s almost too early in the timeline and is just showing the very early start of the rebellion. I know they can’t expect everyone to watch every show but I feel the early Rebellion stuff was done much better already in Rebels.

It is very slow at times, and it's definitely not a traditional Star Wars story, but that's intentional. The first season isn't really about the founding of the Rebellion, but about how "ordinary" people ended up involved in the Rebellion despite never actively seeking it out. How they only rebelled because the Empire left them with no other choice.

Mon Mothma isn't trying to start the Rebellion at this point in her career, she still wants to be a dedicated senator trying (naively) to slow down the Empire's headlong rush to fascism. She's secretly funneling money not out of a desire to set up an organized rebellion, but mostly to soothe her conscience about her continued involvement in a Senate that clearly is not working. She thinks the money goes to relief efforts for people impacted by the Empire, not weapons to attack it. Her story does become a bit more tense in the later episodes though. The early stuff is mostly setting up her story: in over her head with no one she can trust, not even her family.

It isn't a normal Star Wars adventure story though, and it doesn't become that in the last 6 episodes either, so it's fair if it's not what you're looking for. I wouldn't say it's soulless though, it's just much more of a harsh and realistic view of the rebellion than we normally get. I definitely found joy in it though. The formula of two episodes of buildup and one episode of payoff have been very enjoyable to me. They're minor victories compared to destroying the Death Star, but they've felt just as thrilling to watch.

Edit - this season is definitely not early Rebellion. It's pre-Rebellion when it's just various resistance groups who have little in common beyond their hatred of the Empire. The next season should cover more of the founding of the Rebellion, with each 3 episode arc covering one year, and ending pretty much right where Rogue One starts. Though I'm expecting it to be far less of a harmonious founding than the one we saw in Rebels.

If you don't like it up to episode 6 and didn't like the heist episode you should stop watching it since it isn't your thing. The heist is the mid season dramatic high point (and probably the most stereotypically Star Wars it ever gets), so I don't think you're going to enjoy any of the rest of it.

I thought it was nail-biting and terrific, and really stuck the landing. I loved almost everything about it.

I agree. I keep seeing people say "the best Star Wars" in years, etc. but Star Wars was about hope and the good in everyone (except the Emperor I guess.)

Andor may be great drama but it doesn't feel Star Wars to me.

I think that is what people like - no space magicians, etc. and that is fine but it doesn't feel Star Wars to me. If feels like a different show set in the Star Wars universe

I thought the show had that in spades though. Andor found the good in himself he thought didnt exist and inspired hope in many others.
And Marva's speech, god damn that was classic Star Wars.

Thanks all for the tips about the rest of the season. I’ve seen that there is prison stuff coming up and that’s another sub-genre that I generally do not like.

I think Stengah reminds me why I generally don’t like prequels. Expectations. I go in with certain expectations based on what I’ve seen already and when it goes elsewhere I’m usually disappointed. (I fully get that that’s a “me” problem.)

“Stengah” wrote:

Mon Mothma isn't trying to start the Rebellion at this point in her career, she still wants to be a dedicated senator trying (naively) to slow down the Empire's headlong rush to fascism.

We know who Mon Mothma is and we know where she goes. I expect her to be actively working on starting the rebellion, not arguing with her husband about dinner plans and trying to being an absent parent. That “origin” story isn’t compelling to me in a Star Wars show.

I very much enjoyed the gritty and serious take on how and why people side with either a rebellion or the fascist authoritarian government. I agree that it's a different show that happens to be set in the Star Wars universe, and that's why I like it. Luthen in particular is a fascinating character, and he has some incredible scenes in the latter half of the show. He's morally murky but utterly committed to the rebellion.

My favorite aspect of the show is how it's divided into several mini-arcs. Each of these arcs build tensions incredibly well, and the climaxes, to me, felt incredible when everything that's been building up over the last few episodes comes to a head. PaladinTom, in case you're interested, the next episode is a bit of a transition episode before another three-episode arc begins. Then the final two episodes bring all of the storylines that have been happening around Andor together, and the finale in particular is one of the strongest narrative climaxes to a show I've seen.

Star Wars is about hope in the face of evil, yes, but you have to see the evil and pain and suffering against which hope shines for it to truly resonate. That's why this show works for me so much.

PaladinTom wrote:

Thanks all for the tips about the rest of the season. I’ve seen that there is prison stuff coming up and that’s another sub-genre that I generally do not like.

I think Stengah reminds me why I generally don’t like prequels. Expectations. I go in with certain expectations based on what I’ve seen already and when it goes elsewhere I’m usually disappointed. (I fully get that that’s a “me” problem.)

“Stengah” wrote:

Mon Mothma isn't trying to start the Rebellion at this point in her career, she still wants to be a dedicated senator trying (naively) to slow down the Empire's headlong rush to fascism.

We know who Mon Mothma is and we know where she goes. I expect her to be actively working on starting the rebellion, not arguing with her husband about dinner plans and trying to being an absent parent. That “origin” story isn’t compelling to me in a Star Wars show.

Her story does become more satisfying in the latter half, when her familial problems and her political ones start to interact. This gets her from the well-intentioned and passionate senator we first see in Clone Wars into the Mon Mothma that confidently leads the Rebellion.

Stengah wrote:
PaladinTom wrote:

Thanks all for the tips about the rest of the season. I’ve seen that there is prison stuff coming up and that’s another sub-genre that I generally do not like.

I think Stengah reminds me why I generally don’t like prequels. Expectations. I go in with certain expectations based on what I’ve seen already and when it goes elsewhere I’m usually disappointed. (I fully get that that’s a “me” problem.)

“Stengah” wrote:

Mon Mothma isn't trying to start the Rebellion at this point in her career, she still wants to be a dedicated senator trying (naively) to slow down the Empire's headlong rush to fascism.

We know who Mon Mothma is and we know where she goes. I expect her to be actively working on starting the rebellion, not arguing with her husband about dinner plans and trying to being an absent parent. That “origin” story isn’t compelling to me in a Star Wars show.

Her story does become more satisfying in the latter half, when her familial problems and her political ones start to interact. This gets her from the well-intentioned and passionate senator we first see in Clone Wars into the Mon Mothma that confidently leads the Rebellion.

Everything in Andor is intentional. The Mothma family dynamics are not just thrown in for filler, but to show the real cost and heartache that the founders of the rebellion accepted by rebelling.

Good news for the "this isn't Star Wars to me" crowd! They'll be making more of the kind Star Wars you like very soon.

The cat is out of the bag and Star Wars will never just be the three movies we grew up with ever again. For better AND (in some cases very much) for worse, it's no longer just a very specific kind of sci-fi fantasy adventure story, but a setting where many kinds of stories can (and will, at an aggressive and probably ill-considered pace) be told.

On the bright side though, that does create room for the fact that there is a great variety of things that can "feel like Star Wars" depending on who you are and how you've connected with it over your lifetime, and if you're lucky they might just eventually make something that hits your particular set of "feels like Star Wars" things and actually do it well.

So for some of us there's TONS of room in the category of "what Star Wars is" for a darker, more deeply thoughtful and grounded story that takes its time to care about the motivations and emotional interiority of the people struggling within the systems of power and oppression that are the background of the conflict in most stories in the setting.

(AND to do that while also masterfully playing with and subverting the tropes of action adventure sub genres like slow burn spy thrillers, heist stories, and prison break dramas to construct an immensely suspenseful, emotionally resonant, and narratively satisfying collage of many of the kinds of stories Star Wars content frequently fails to deliver on.)

(AND to do that with writing, direction, and editing that respects the tremendous talent of the cast to play genuinely complex and compelling characters and to communicate the breadth of human experience with a level of nuance and subtlety that's rare in general, but especially in genre fiction.)

(AND to do it with production sensibilities that respect the audience's ability to appreciate every bit of craft and care the creators all the way up and down the process of making the thing want to put into it -- and that we will sense the special quality of the work that they are doing, and give them our time and trust to deliver us a story that isn't just what we think we wanted, but rather something that is full of the kind of richness and surprise and novelty of experience that was at the heart of what we were really connecting with when Star Wars was new to us -- even if we thought it was just about the cool space ships, quippy one liners from impossibly cool dudes, and badass swords made out of lasers.)

But yeah, for folks who wanted (or were open to) that, Andor gave us a really wonderful gift we've been waiting ages for.

Anyway, hopefully Disney will take the right lessons here and give the same level of creative freedom and production support to more talented and capable teams going forward, including those who want to make the more traditional high fantasy adventure stories, so that folks with different sensibilities and ideas of what they want from Star Wars can have similarly transcendent experiences as well.

(For me at least, Mandalorian season 1 was a pretty good swing at that, by the way, and season 2 was okay too -- but there's probably at least a few creators out there that could do much better, especially with the kind of resources and freedom given to Tony Gilroy's team with Andor.)

I like both kinds of Star Wars, and am very glad we can have both kinds of stories. I love Andor, but don't want all future Star Wars stories to try to be more like it.

Same!

George Lucas defined an initial set of rules which defines the sandbox that Star Wars is. Creative people now get to play in that sandbox and make content. Nobody will love everything that is made, but the more that is made the more of the stuff that I, you and we do like will also get made.

The only sad/frustrating part is that one corporation owns the rights to Star Wars and does have the power to limit what is created. This is a double edge sword since what is created can be focused, but it could lead Star Wars down a road that some don't want to travel. Even if they do stray from my desired type of content, there is so much out there already (TV shows, Comic Books, EU, etc...) that I can have my fill.

The good news is so far Disney has been 50/50 on making content I really enjoy, and only about 10% that I outright hate.

PaladinTom wrote:

We know who Mon Mothma is and we know where she goes. I expect her to be actively working on starting the rebellion, not arguing with her husband about dinner plans and trying to being an absent parent. That “origin” story isn’t compelling to me in a Star Wars show.

I don't remember exactly where Mon Mothma's arc is on episode 6, but I know it's a little deeper than that. Her story is showing her sacrificing her family to resist the Empire. I feel like it is one of the most dramatic and compelling story lines in the show. I love the depth it is adding to her character. Based on what you see in Rebels, Rogue One, and ROTJ, she's pretty one dimensional. I really enjoy getting into the nitty gritty of what shapes her. That's true of almost all the characters for me. It's about the people it's not about the space battles.

I do not like the sequel trilogy for the opposite reason. Those are all spectacle and fan service with very little character development or coherent story.