Horizon: Forbidden West - Disassemble all

I am at the end game and trying to decide if I want to upgrade my gear(mostly legendary with one or two upgrades) or just finish the game.

Part of me wants to go for upgrades but the other part of me hates this as much as I hated it in Breath of the Wild.

I don't mind a bit of farming for gear upgrades but if I wanted to endlessly grind mobs for rare drops I'd just play an mmo.

If you’re playing on normal, it’s not necessary.

I'm playing on normal, and it's necessary for me. If I don't upgrade gear and can't use stealth, much of the combat is a locked door keeping me from progressing through the story.

I don’t mean upgrades in general, but his specific situation of having legendary items that have been upgraded once or twice already. That’s probably good enough.

I finished the main story without having picked up more than one or two legendary items, and never "farming" to upgrade the gear I was rolling with.

On Normal difficulty with "easy loot" enabled, just doing enough of the subquests to hit level 50 made me feel powerful enough that the endgame was challenging but not difficult.

I think farming upgrades is for players who want to complete all the arena challenges and get competitive on the leaderboards. Now that I've post-game farmed some of the upgrades for fun, I think the endgame (at least on Normal) would have been anticlimactically easy. Getting some of the tougher drops (killing "Apex" versions of the tough machines, or taking down Fireclaws without destroying their chest sacs) might be tougher than the final boss.

Agent 86 wrote:

I am at the end game and trying to decide if I want to upgrade my gear(mostly legendary with one or two upgrades) or just finish the game.

Part of me wants to go for upgrades but the other part of me hates this as much as I hated it in Breath of the Wild.

I don't mind a bit of farming for gear upgrades but if I wanted to endlessly grind mobs for rare drops I'd just play an mmo.

Alright guys. Do take this with a grain of salt because I like playing Monster Hunter and that game is a total grindfest and I like the grind.

If you're not going to upgrade Legendary equipment, you're probably better off using Very Rare equipment and upgrading that. On Easy Loot setting, the drops are generous enough that you won't need to kill more than a few machines to get some good stats.

You might even be better off using fully upgraded Rare (blue) equipment. Depends on the specific equipment.

You don't need fully upgraded anything to finish the game on Normal. You can basically facetank everything with enough levels and Overshield.

If you're capable of a bit of finesse, then killing machines quickly and efficiently is so fast, traveling to the location to look for the machine and preparing for the hunt takes longer than the actual fight.

As an example, it is actually pretty trivial to take out a Fireclaw. I'll outline the procedure in the spoiler.

Spoiler:

The procedure calls for very precise shots from stealth, so you need an outfit with Low Profile +2 and Stealth Ranged +2 as well as the two levels you get from putting max points in those skills.

You'll want at least the Delta Sharpshot Bow, upgraded to 3 slots, purchasable at Thornmarsh.

Slot in 2x Stealth Damage +25% and 1x Long Range Damage +25%. Coils can also be purchased at Thornmarsh.

Lie in wait in a bush and tag the power cells in the butt of the Fireclaw. Activate Powershots Valor Surge.

Aim carefully while the Fireclaw is in a stationary position. Use Concentration. Shoot the weak point. This will make the Fireclaw suspicious, but not Alert. Stay in cover until the alert level goes down to unaware. Then shoot again in the same way. Do not break stealth. That will not end well.

I swapped back to some Rare/Very Rare weapons because I found them more effective than the base level Legendaries (on normal).

In particular I wouldn't bother upgrading weapons for the final mission, since it seemed a bit easier going than other missions around that level.

I’ve been perusing interest threads and various topics on the internet about Forbidden West. It’s interesting that a lot of people think that this is a Disney-fied series and that Aloy is some kind of flawless savior.

Is it just me?

Aloy is clearly a psychopathic killer. She’s Dexter with red hair, arrows, and a bad case of Savior Complex. I don’t think Guerilla Games is going to turn the last game into a story about where Aloy turns like Faro did, but she’s not that far from that. In all of her reflections at The Base, not one of them are reserved for all the human lives she’s taken over the past two games. This isn’t a reflection of bad upbringing or a lack of values. Clearly, Aloy cerebrally values human life, and cleaves closely to the values Rost taught her growing up. But she feels absolutely nothing about killing people, and she doesn’t deny she enjoys it when Nil points that out.

I don’t think they need to “darken” that any further. Aloy’s pretty scary enough as she is.

I think this is best emphasized after your first encounter with the Quen.

Them: "You killed the whole squad!"

Aloy: "They shot first" /shrug

Is that any different from any other videogame protagonist, though? That's always what seemed to me to be the fatal flaw in the "Nathan Drake is a mass murderer" meme; why would you single out Drake?

It is an interesting question as the "Silent Strike" kills for humans become more graphic. It's easy to write it off as simply part of the genre of video games, where you are routinely expected to murder on a shockingly massive scale; but once the narrative starts referencing it...

The game has no problem letting us know that our saviors are flawed, or that what's "right" isn't always clear, both in the story of the "Old Ones" or in Aloy's choices. There's a pretty good argument that Aloy (like Sobek) is about as much of a savior as humanity can hope for, but I agree that anyone who reads them as flawless is making a pretty shallow reading.

Evan E wrote:

Is that any different from any other videogame protagonist, though? That's always what seemed to me to be the fatal flaw in the "Nathan Drake is a mass murderer" meme; why would you single out Drake?

I thought of the Drake example too. I think it’s the disconnect between story and gameplay. Some games have more of it than others. Some make an attempt to reconcile it, some wave a hand at it. I think Aloy is intended to be heroic with just an acknowledgment that she enjoys the rush of fighting. I can see where that breaks down but I don’t get the sense that Guerrilla is attempting any real kind of commentary there. It’s a well-told narrative story wise but nothing revolutionary.

I don't think Aloy is a psychopath. In a world where it is just all survival mode, you do what you have to do to make it to the next day. Yes, it can be ruthless, but Rost clearly made sure she could handle herself in a fight in the event someone or some machine tried to kill her. And growing up an outcast instilled in her that she has to rely on herself because others nearby might not even blink to help.

Aloy is a reluctant hero. She didn't know her whole life she was going to have to save the world, or that her DNA is tied to an Old One. The only reason she's even embarking on these quests is that she is the only one that possibly could. Every time someone wants to thank her, or celebrate her heroism she just shrugs and is like, "Hey, let's move on with our lives." We know this because of the party Erend throws and she Irish Goodbyes (Or doesn't even show up, but I get the sense she was there for a split second in the beginning and then ducked out). So the idea that she has a "savior complex" in a negative way is misplaced.

When she comes upon situations she's usually a neutral third party. She cares about humanity but also sees that humans working together is more valuable than being divided, particularly in a world where the environment is trying to kill you and where threats evolve. While she (and us as the player) can choose to have her get involved or not, we can tell she wants to genuinely help people even if they don't want her help. Sometimes people can't see beyond their own nose in a situation. She never has to help anyone either through fighting or using her Focus, but she chooses. It's not for bloodlust. If that were the case she could just go the route of Sylens and use all her tools against everyone.

Dominic Knight wrote:

I don't think Aloy is a psychopath. In a world where it is just all survival mode, you do what you have to do to make it to the next day. Yes, it can be ruthless, but Rost clearly made sure she could handle herself in a fight in the event someone or some machine tried to kill her. And growing up an outcast instilled in her that she has to rely on herself because others nearby might not even blink to help.

Aloy is a reluctant hero. She didn't know her whole life she was going to have to save the world, or that her DNA is tied to an Old One. The only reason she's even embarking on these quests is that she is the only one that possibly could. Every time someone wants to thank her, or celebrate her heroism she just shrugs and is like, "Hey, let's move on with our lives." We know this because of the party Erend throws and she Irish Goodbyes (Or doesn't even show up, but I get the sense she was there for a split second in the beginning and then ducked out). So the idea that she has a "savior complex" in a negative way is misplaced.

When she comes upon situations she's usually a neutral third party. She cares about humanity but also sees that humans working together is more valuable than being divided, particularly in a world where the environment is trying to kill you and where threats evolve. While she (and us as the player) can choose to have her get involved or not, we can tell she wants to genuinely help people even if they don't want her help. Sometimes people can't see beyond their own nose in a situation. She never has to help anyone either through fighting or using her Focus, but she chooses. It's not for bloodlust. If that were the case she could just go the route of Sylens and use all her tools against everyone.

I don’t use “psychopath” in the sense of Aloy being evil. She values human life cerebrally. She knows it’s right. And she chooses to do the things she was taught are right. This is something she explicitly points out that separates her from Nil.

I use “psychopath” in the sense that Aloy isn’t psychologically affected by taking human lives. She doesn’t require a lot of reflection to make it right. She doesn’t suffer from PTSD. She isn’t plagued by moral doubt because of how terrible it makes her feel. Most humans have a visceral reaction to taking other human life. Aloy doesn’t. It doesn’t affect her at all. She knows it’s wrong and she’ll avoid doing it for the sake of that moral structure. But she won’t have unexplainable feelings about why she can’t kill people.

Even soldiers in violent war-torn lands become “strange” when they’re constantly exposed to violence, especially the kind they visit on other people. It changes them and they get fidgety, or emotionally unstable, or a bunch of other psychological manifestations. To Aloy, killing a human is about the same as killing a raccoon. It’s forbidden by her moral stance taught to her by Rost, but she feels nothing.

Basically, it’s not a statement of her moral values, but a statement of her mental make-up. She probably doesn’t quite understand why anyone would be bothered just by human death (that was “necessary”). Elizabet was the same way. Tate points out that she has no close friends and doesn’t seem very “warm.”

Doctors are like this as well. MDs are slightly more psychopathic than the general population, and surgeons are more likely to score higher. A lot of people just faint at the sight of human guts, and don’t have what it takes to treat human flesh as just more meat.

Evan E wrote:

Is that any different from any other videogame protagonist, though? That's always what seemed to me to be the fatal flaw in the "Nathan Drake is a mass murderer" meme; why would you single out Drake?

I’d say that’s a fair comparison. The difference is that Horizon does quite pointedly say that it’s a flaw. Nil is how they do that. Nil is absolutely and without a doubt a psycho. And he points out explicitly that Aloy is the same as he is. Aloy protests this, but she doesn’t deny that she enjoys killing people from time to time. That’s not the outlook of a normal human. It’s not just the fighting that she enjoys. She specifically kills people.

She doesn’t always. She doesn’t kill anyone in the fighting pits. She doesn’t kill The Enduring. She doesn’t even kill Regalla (during the fight). GG could have made her knock people out with Silent Strike. They seem to be open to the idea of non-lethal fights. I do think the fact that Silent Strike and other attacks by Aloy are lethal is a specific and intentional statement. It’s not just handwaved away.

Seen in the last patch or so:

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/E9ZsvoX.jpg)

Location:

Spoiler:

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/qU7OgQW.jpg)

LarryC, where you see psychopathy, I see the consequences of being an outcast and likely neurodivergence.

Her entire childhood and adolescence was a lesson that other humans were not for her and she could only rely on Rost and herself. Expecting that to change in a year or two is unreasonable. Other than a few encounters with other people that went horribly wrong, she had zero experience interacting with anybody but Rost prior to the events of the first game. I find it remarkable that she has been able to cultivate as many friendships as she does in the two games, given that she's had to learn in ~2 years how people and relationships work.

Far from having a Saviour Complex, I see someone who doesn't want to be involved in any of this sh*t. She feels like she has no choice because she's literally the only one who can do what needs to be done. Her personality and education with Rost doesn't allow her to shirk the responsibility. I think we see in HFW what Aloy might've been if not for Rost's influence.

I love Aloy because she's one of the few protagonists that I find relatable. Commander Shepard is great because she cares about people and she's not going to shrink from the responsibility, but she's far more personable and charismatic than I'll ever be IRL. Aloy's awkward, shy, and often just wants to be alone. It's good to see yourself in games sometimes.

By “psychopath with a Savior Complex,” I mean that she literally feels no remorse at killing people, especially when they are in the way of her life goal. She was very impassioned when she threatened to kill Hekarro in his own throne room, after he had done her the courtesy of inviting her in; but it was NOT the sort where she had insurmountable drive that was overpowering a visceral reluctance to kill. She doesn’t have any reluctance to kill people, except for an intellectual objection because of Rost’s instilled moral compass. Once she decides that your death is “justifiable,” then she can kill you straight up, with no reluctance, no remorse, and no regret.

This sort of thing is a kind of neurodivergence. Arguably, it’s one that is necessary and often even quite useful to us as humans. But it’s also quite true that not everyone is like this even in Aloy’s game world. A lot of humans simply won’t or can’t kill other humans without taking massive psychological damage. Most violent video game protagonists are some sort of psychopath, but it’s glossed over and not taken seriously in game lore. I think we’re projecting that in Aloy, even though GG took the time to craft an entire NPC and questline that says that they’re not glossing it over, and Aloy is explicitly pretty psychopathic. Normal folks don’t enjoy killing other people regardless of the reason; even when defending their own life.

I always thought it odd after killing the leader at a rebel outpost, when Aloy would say "I could finish off the rest of the rebels, or I could just let them wander off" as if it didn't matter to her. I suppose by comparison to Sylens or the Zentihs she is relatively compassionate but she can definitely put that aside when she needs to.

It still seems to me you're imposing a complexity of psychology that just isn't there. She also makes impossible leaps while climbing, but I don't think Guerilla is saying she's superhuman. They're saying she's a videogame character.

Evan E wrote:

It still seems to me you're imposing a complexity of psychology that just isn't there. She also makes impossible leaps while climbing, but I don't think Guerilla is saying she's superhuman. They're saying she's a videogame character.

Through Nil, they’re specifically saying that Aloy has psychopathic qualities. That it’s not just because this is a video game. This wouldn’t be the first game to do that. Borderlands pretty much openly calls out that most everyone in the game is some kind of psychopath. Batman games throw the conceit that he never actually kills anyone - he just knocks them out. Mass Effect’s Shepard does experience psychological trauma.

This is exactly what I meant when I said we’re too eager to just chalk it up to this being a video game, even when there are things in the video game that say otherwise.

I am not a psychologist (IANAP), but it appears to me that psychopathy is more than impaired regret.

I filled out this checklist based upon Aloy's behaviour. Any time I had difficulty deciding, I bumped it one category to the left. I arrived at an 11 out of 44. I just don't see it.

What I do see is her signs of autism in adults.

finding it hard to understand what others are thinking or feeling
I don't see a whole lot of evidence for this in Aloy

getting very anxious about social situations
Hell yes, the Irish Goodbye mentioned above is just one example of her not being comfortable in social settings

finding it hard to make friends or preferring to be on your own
A fair bit of HFW and criticism I've seen of her characterization is exactly about her distancing herself

seeming blunt, rude or not interested in others without meaning to
Most of the other criticism I've seen said she's unfriendly/brusque/etc.

finding it hard to say how you feel
I also agree on this one. The scenes at Rost's grave in the first game are a good example of this. He was the most understanding/accepting person in her life and she still only mentions her feelings once.

taking things very literally – for example, you may not understand sarcasm or phrases like "break a leg"
having the same routine every day and getting very anxious if it changes

Aloy seems to have a good grasp of idiom, so this sign seems to be absent.

Personality complexes are just that, complex. One sign is not enough to diagnose. There is a LOT of overlap in signs of various labels. As a parent of an autistic child, I did not see a psychopath while playing through the game. I thought I saw an example of what my son could be on his best days. When he's a little older, I hope he plays through the game and sees a little of himself in Aloy.

peanut3141 wrote:

I am not a psychologist (IANAP), but it appears to me that psychopathy is more than impaired regret.

I filled out this checklist based upon Aloy's behaviour. Any time I had difficulty deciding, I bumped it one category to the left. I arrived at an 11 out of 44. I just don't see it.

What I do see is her signs of autism in adults.

finding it hard to understand what others are thinking or feeling
I don't see a whole lot of evidence for this in Aloy

getting very anxious about social situations
Hell yes, the Irish Goodbye mentioned above is just one example of her not being comfortable in social settings

finding it hard to make friends or preferring to be on your own
A fair bit of HFW and criticism I've seen of her characterization is exactly about her distancing herself

seeming blunt, rude or not interested in others without meaning to
Most of the other criticism I've seen said she's unfriendly/brusque/etc.

finding it hard to say how you feel
I also agree on this one. The scenes at Rost's grave in the first game are a good example of this. He was the most understanding/accepting person in her life and she still only mentions her feelings once.

taking things very literally – for example, you may not understand sarcasm or phrases like "break a leg"
having the same routine every day and getting very anxious if it changes

Aloy seems to have a good grasp of idiom, so this sign seems to be absent.

Personality complexes are just that, complex. One sign is not enough to diagnose. There is a LOT of overlap in signs of various labels. As a parent of an autistic child, I did not see a psychopath while playing through the game. I thought I saw an example of what my son could be on his best days. When he's a little older, I hope he plays through the game and sees a little of himself in Aloy.

I’m also not a psychologist, but I score Aloy 18 out of 44 on that checklist. I do note that that checklist is specifically tailored to assess behaviors that would be relevant in a modern setting, so Aloy doesn’t tick off those alarm signals just because she doesn’t do some of those things on account of them not being a thing where she lives.

I think we agree that she’s some sort of neurodivergent. I’m focusing on her complete lack of affect or empathy when she kills humans. And yeah, she enjoys that sometimes (conversations with Nil). I’m not entirely sure where “enjoys killing people from time to time” scores on psychopathy, but whatever that is, it’s definitely a character flaw and would not be particularly apropos in most Disney heroes.

While I would agree that she has some sociopathic and psychopathic qualities, I don’t believe she falls neatly into either category. Regardless, if you played the first game, I would think it would be fairly easy to see why she is the way she is. Also, I can’t think of many - if any - fictional “heroes” that don’t have some sort of self-righteous, narcissistic tendencies.

vypre wrote:

While I would agree that she has some sociopathic and psychopathic qualities, I don’t believe she falls neatly into either category. Regardless, if you played the first game, I would think it would be fairly easy to see why she is the way she is. Also, I can’t think of many - if any - fictional “heroes” that don’t have some sort of self-righteous, narcissistic tendencies.

I do want to emphasize that my take on this is spurred on by the strange idea I keep seeing popping up on the interwebs - that Aloy is a simplistic character with no depth who is extremely similar to every other cookie-cutter squeaky-clean hero we have seen over and over again. That she’s just some bland, featureless self-insert protagonist no different from the Marine in Doom. Whatever she is, a simplistic self-insert protagonist isn’t it.

I would definitely agree that’s she’s not a self-insert protagonist. I feel like you’d have to really not pay attention to think that.

Agent 86 wrote:

I am at the end game and trying to decide if I want to upgrade my gear(mostly legendary with one or two upgrades) or just finish the game.

After the most recent patch, it's worth circling back to this: the Legendary gear has been nerfed. It's still better than the "Very Rare" gear in many cases, but the difficulty of upgrading it is still much higher.

So you get even less return on investment, and I'd say that (even more so than before) upgrading legendary gear is its own reward, not so much worth doing for the increased power in story missions or chasing achievements. (Especially since there is no penalty for dropping the difficulty.)

I'm enjoying it in post-game play, but can easily see it being frustrating or tedious. (Especially when you need to get "Apex" parts that don't spawn often and aren't auto-marked on the map.)

beeporama wrote:
Agent 86 wrote:

I am at the end game and trying to decide if I want to upgrade my gear(mostly legendary with one or two upgrades) or just finish the game.

After the most recent patch, it's worth circling back to this: the Legendary gear has been nerfed. It's still better than the "Very Rare" gear in many cases, but the difficulty of upgrading it is still much higher.

So you get even less return on investment, and I'd say that (even more so than before) upgrading legendary gear is its own reward, not so much worth doing for the increased power in story missions or chasing achievements. (Especially since there is no penalty for dropping the difficulty.)

I'm enjoying it in post-game play, but can easily see it being frustrating or tedious. (Especially when you need to get "Apex" parts that don't spawn often and aren't auto-marked on the map.)

Not sure if this is a spoiler, but the more of a machine type you kill, you up the chances of Apexes. The chance also goes way, way up at night, so you can just spend time at a Shelter.

LarryC wrote:

Not sure if this is a spoiler, but the more of a machine type you kill, you up the chances of Apexes. The chance also goes way, way up at night, so you can just spend time at a Shelter.

I'd figured it was a small mechanical thing, so, I hope nobody thinks it's a spoiler.

Of note: the first game (and maybe this one too? I forget) makes the first several machines of a type you kill easier: there is less armor on them, especially around the weak points. The first game doesn't change them as drastically as this one, though: the Apex versions will have less, or different, elemental weaknesses on top of different stats. So you sometimes want different tactics. As I'm sure many of us have noticed.

I'd read somewhere that the chance of Apex spawns goes up at night, and anecdotally that does seem to be the case for me. Glad to hear your confirmation. Still looking forward to the official guide, curious about the math.

But it's still frustrating that they aren't auto-marked on a map. (i.e., you see and kill an Apex Thunderjaw at a Thunderjaw site, but when you create a job for an Apex Thunderjaw part, it still says "site unknown" and doesn't give you map markers.) Hopefully they change that in a patch.

beeporama wrote:

After the most recent patch, it's worth circling back to this: the Legendary gear has been nerfed. It's still better than the "Very Rare" gear in many cases, but the difficulty of upgrading it is still much higher.

Scratch this: apparently the nerf was "unintentional" and is being removed in the latest patch.

They're still generally not really worth it for main storyline content, just for the "collect 'em all" fun.