Horizon: Forbidden West - Disassemble all

ComfortZone wrote:
farley3k wrote:
Evan E wrote:

.... but as I'm finding with a lot of Forbidden West, that still seems like a patch on the essential problem of the game, that there's just too much.... I' less weapons (at some point I just want one bow that does everything, rather than having to toggle between three different bows with different elemental effects strewn between them)

+1 or more.

It's funny, for all the ways this game mimics the progression from Mass Effect 1 to 2, the one thing it didn't do is streamline the weapons. It almost feels like they had too many shops, side quests, errands etc for which you need loot, and not enough loot variety to be rewarding, so they created this needlessly complex loot set by adding in all these weapon attributes.

I am slowly learning to ignore the weapons that don't interest me, but my brain has a hard time accepting that I can't have everything all the time.

Edit: I see your point Larry, and I'm trying to get in that mindset, but I still want to play with all the toys!

I do think it’s natural to just think of the game as wanting you to just use all the elements all the time, and there’s nothing to suggest that build-specificity is a very strong mechanic in this game when it wasn’t as strong in Zero Dawn.

That said, builds are absolutely a thing in Forbidden West, and trying to Jack-of-all-Trades the game with an option for all elements and no particular emphasis on specific performance in the field is significantly less effective than a build that is built to function in specific ways, especially when those aspects are carefully selected to be synergistic but also individually functional.

As an example, you shouldn’t only build a Frost-capable bow to be Frost-optimized (if that’s your build), you should also have an accompanying weapon that is Damage-optimized because that’s all Frost is good for - damage. If your complementary weapon isn’t optimized to do damage in the specific instance and range you plan to engage in, it won’t work as well as it could. This doesn’t just include the weapon, it also includes your Skill Tree choices, Coil choice, and Outfit Selection!

As yet another example, if you’re in tight spaces, Sharpshot Bows don’t work as well because they require more time to draw and to Overdraw. There are ways to build around this problem, but let’s say we skip it altogether and just focus on Freeze-Short Range Damage as one of our build synergies. For this, we can build around Frost Hunter Bow optimized for Brittle Buildup, but as an accompaniment, we would like a Warrior Bow with very high Impact, optimized for Impact Damage using Coils, with a choice of direct Impact Boosts, Critical Hit boosts, or Draw Speed enhancements (for more attacks). To amp it even higher, we choose an Outfit that boosts Concentration and Deep Concentration Skills and save our Concentration meter for our damage-dealing cycle, essentially turning our Warrior Bow into a Gatling Gun of machine destruction once we secure our target and render it Brittle.

In tandem with the Skill Tree, Outfit, and pair of weapons, we would then be incentivized to choose high-impact weapons dealing tons of damage at close to long range, that have boosts when using our Concentration resource. This would pair extremely well at Medium Range (beyond our Warrior Bow range) with a Boltblaster that has +Concentration Damage, or Sharpshot Bows that have similar stats. Sustained Burst Weapon Technique as a nuking option here for our Medium to Long Range target has particular relevance, since we already have close range covered with our Warrior Bow. We might even equip a secondary Boltblaster in our Weapon Wheel in order to enable back to back Sustained Bursts without reloading for a very tough Brittle target.

There are a couple varieties of melee builds, stealth builds, elemental builds, and so on and so forth. It’s remarkably robust.

The long range Stealth Nuking Build I posted earlier in the topic is only one variety of stealth build, and usually only one aspect of any particular build once you move into the midgame.

If they wanted me to do optimizing etc then they could have put in some sort of setup section - like prep for a mission. "Aloy, your hunting Biggidy-boos. You should pick a loadout that favors Sniggle damage" Then once doesn with the Biggidies you go back to your stash and change your loadout.

That kind of thing works well in a mission based game like Hitman etc but no so great in an open world one so it would be tricky to implement but they seem like smart folks.

farley3k wrote:

If they wanted me to do optimizing etc then they could have put in some sort of setup section - like prep for a mission. "Aloy, your hunting Biggidy-boos. You should pick a loadout that favors Sniggle damage" Then once doesn with the Biggidies you go back to your stash and change your loadout.

That kind of thing works well in a mission based game like Hitman etc but no so great in an open world one so it would be tricky to implement but they seem like smart folks.

They're being very coy about it, that's for sure. But the results speak for themselves. One-shotting Behemoths and taking out Thunderjaws in a few shots is very doable with the right build (not even difficult to execute), but it can be a total slog if your set up isn't stacking modifiers.

One of the very fair criticisms about the mechanics of Forbidden West is that we don't have a Loadout mechanic so we can save a particular set up and switch them up a lot more easily. The game certainly would benefit a great deal from this.

That said, there is more than one way to deal with threats even in the Arena, so you could feasibly build your Stormbird killing build around Frost, Acid, tie-downs, Traps, Bombs, or even Melee. So long as you build and stack the modifiers to be synergistic, they're going to work pretty well. You can also just Rambo your way through the game without any build whatsoever and it'll work well enough on Easy and Story modes. There isn't a right way to play here.

The builds I suggest are very helpful on Normal, Hard, or Very Hard modes. They're entertaining for folks who want to engage with these mechanics. But they're largely superfluous on Easy and Story modes. Forbidden West certainly looks like it has a lot in common with hand-holdy titles full of icons everywhere, but it can be remarkably obtuse about how the game expects you to play in order to tackle harder challenges well.

The game felt remarkably easy on Normal and Hard mode for me, but I am open about using East Loot On so I didn't have to bother stripping machines parts often, and I stacked modifiers on all kinds of explosive options early and at every opportunity. I like it when things explode.

EXPLOSIONS!!!!!

Basically, focus on builds with stacking modifiers and synergistic aspects and you'll be able to nuke machines and humans down very quickly. But you can just play however you want and you can just tweak the difficulty settings and that's going to work, too.

Counter-point:

I’m about 90% of the way thru the story and 75% on everything else (on Normal). I haven’t optimized my build at all and just swap weapons/coils as needed to match elements and what combat system I’m currently engaged in ie stealth long range, long range, melee. There are several weapon types I’ve heard good things about, but haven’t used at all - the canister caster being among them - and several I barely touch, trip casters, bolt casters... Until just a few days ago, I wasn’t using the shredders either, but they’re now my go-to for the larger, more difficult machines.

Now, I can see where this might be problematic if you’re playing on higher difficulties, but I feel like it should be understood that you’re going to have to plan and play a little smarter at that point.

That'll work just fine on Hard as well. I have a mostly static lineup that I only modify if going after Fireclaws, as they are absolutely unbearable and I want to cheese them as hard as possible.

The later weapons have 3 ammo types available. Given 6 weapon slots, this means you have 18 things that can be shot/thrown at the enemy. Even allowing for some ammo overlap on the good weapons, this usually covers all the relevant bases.

farley3k wrote:

Maybe at some point I will get a hunter bow that does all ammo types and can free up some of the weapon wheel but currently there is just to many things with too much fiddling.

You will not. No weapon uses more than three types of ammo.

Also, as far as I know, you can't get certain ammo types with certain weapons. I don't think I've seen a Hunter bow with Plasma or Adhesive ammo, for instance, or a Sharpshoot bow with Electric ammo.

So, I think having to swap out weapons is going to be pretty common. But, I don't think you have to get too fussy about it. You're rarely fighting more than two types of machine at a time. And whatever you fight, the general pattern is "hit it with the element it is weakest to, until its elemental state is triggered; then hit it with something high-damage. Rinse and repeat." So I usually just need to swap in two weapons tops, with the rest of the loadout staying whatever it was.

Of course I understand why this might be fiddly and frustrating and not what you want. There are definitely parts of the game I don't want (I hate randomized loot drops and despise my addictive self for having spent a dozen hours farming machines for upgrades I don't really want or need). I think they've got something appealing for everyone, but that also means some part of the system is going to turn you off. Hopefully, it's one you can ignore or adjust the difficulty around.

On normal difficulty I’ve been fine just look at machine weakness. I haven’t gone out of my way to upgrade anything, just done what I can with what I get.

I do think a loadout feature would be really cool in the next game.

I think there’s a sweet level with options they haven’t quite nailed. It hasn’t taken away from the game for me personally but I can see it being distracting for people.

steinkrug wrote:

I do think a loadout feature would be really cool in the next game.

Or patched in; Ghost of Tsushima patched in the ability to quick swap between loadouts for weapons & outfits. Zero Dawn wound up getting a string of patches that both fixed & improved the game (they really retooled the inventory system at one point), so I wouldn't be shocked if the same happens with Forbidden West.

Ah open world games. I am at the level cap with a slew of side quests still to do.

I just went to Thebes and wow:

Spoiler:

Some part of me expected to encounter Faro but I was thinking maybe as an AI construct or something. I wasn't expecting to find him still alive and having gone full Cronenberg. And man, an asshole till the end

If you thought you hated Ted Faro before, just wait till you get to Thebes.

f*ck Ted Faro.

While it is true that certain elements are generally mapped to particular weapons, there is actually a warrior bow with Adhesive Ammo. It is, predictably enough, called the Adhesive Warrior Bow. You aren’t losing anything by not getting it. It’s an interesting sort of weapon, but very mid.

I do find some of the machines feel a lot more “flavorful,” shall we say, when you engage with their overall theme. So while I don’t necessarily have to engage in a cat-and-mouse game with Stalkers, I prefer to hunt them that way because that feels more like the sort of experience they’re supposed to evoke.

Frantic melee with Clawstriders feels appropriate to me, even though it’s strictly more efficient to just blast them from beyond their detection range with Braced Shots.

LarryC wrote:

That said, builds are absolutely a thing in Forbidden West, and trying to Jack-of-all-Trades the game with an option for all elements and no particular emphasis on specific performance in the field is significantly less effective than a build that is built to function in specific ways, especially when those aspects are carefully selected to be synergistic but also individually functional.

This is why there needs to be a builds menu similar to what Ghost of Tsushima has. Like, I see from scouting that I'm going up against a pack that's weak to fire and spits out frost, I equip the build that prepares me for that. In GoT, I had my "wandering around build", my "I'm calling all y'all out" build, and my "ninja build." I could envision something similar where the build is your armor selection, like in GoT, but where the charms in GoT are replaced by your weapon loadout. If that makes sense.

ON EDIT: what others have said.

steinkrug wrote:

On normal difficulty I’ve been fine just look at machine weakness. I haven’t gone out of my way to upgrade anything, just done what I can with what I get.

I do think a loadout feature would be really cool in the next game.

I think there’s a sweet level with options they haven’t quite nailed. It hasn’t taken away from the game for me personally but I can see it being distracting for people.

This is my experience so far. Having a fine time with it on Normal without trying too hard to optimise anything. There is just that feeling I could be doing better…

Agent 86 wrote:

I just went to Thebes and wow:

Spoiler:

Some part of me expected to encounter Faro but I was thinking maybe as an AI construct or something. I wasn't expecting to find him still alive and having gone full Cronenberg. And man, an asshole till the end

Haha yes, I just did that mission last night. Peak Aloy eye rolling!

Spoiler:

I was glad they didn’t show him on screen or make it into a gross boss fight, as I was half expecting.

Also Larry, loving the detail in your posts, fanboy out as much as you like!

ComfortZone wrote:

Also Larry, loving the detail in your posts, fanboy out as much as you like!

Big thanks for the love!

On that note, may I propose something to do if you guys have extra shards and skill points lying around?

Mounted combat.

Mounted combat does feel different in Horizon because the controls are different. They're different because this form of combat allows you to move and strafe quite quickly while you're aiming and firing a weapon. On top of all that, if you have the Machine Master Outfits and level 4 in Mounted Archery and Mounted Defense, you get insanely beefy boosts. We're talking +50% Weapon Damage and -50% Damage Taken. Yes. That's insane.

To balance that out, there are only THREE Machine Master outfits in the entire game, and only two of them actually buff Mounted Archery and Mounted Defense. These are the Very Rare Tenakth Dragoon and the Legendary Tenakth Tactician Outfits. Do check them out if you find them. In addition some Weapon Techniques will not work while mounted. The most notable ones are Braced Shot and Sustained Burst. You also can't craft items like Potions and Traps.

You don't have to actually be moving when shooting from a mount. You can just be stationary, basically using the mount only as a boost to activate Mounted Archery and Mounted Defense. That said, it's very useful to be moving to dodge machine shots. I mention this specific detail because Mounted Defense and Mounted Archery at level 4 are so beefy that you can straight up just exchange shots with some machines that like to stay at range - notably Ravagers - and you will win even when you are not moving at all. I've also tried this with Scorchers and also won. Haven't tried with Plowhorns.

Strafing on a mount while shooting allows you to dodge a lot of machine shots. In some respects, this basically means you're invincible so long as you keep moving fast enough. This will vary according to machine. As an example, you can basically dodge all the attacks a Tremortusk has just by strafing around it with a Charger. The Charger doesn't have a lot of HP, but that doesn't matter because you won't be getting hit anyway. A Thunderjaw's attacks have more tracking and deal more damage, so you're going to want a Clawstrider for that. You're going to get hit anyway so you don't want a mount that'll go down in one shot.

You get free time dilation for a few seconds when you aim while mounted. This doesn't use up your Concentration Resource. You just get it for free every time you aim. You can also reload your Boltblasters while moving if you're on a mount.

Finally, you can't activate a Valor Surge while mounted. If you want to activate it, you have to dismount or you have to activate it before you mount. Powershots is a great option here because it doesn't have a time limit. You just need to make sure you're using appropriate Weapon Techniques or non-compatible weapons until you have an opening to do your heavy blows (most Weapon Techniques and non-compatible weapons don't exhaust your Powershots count). Stealth Stalker and Ranged Master both also work surprisingly well.

Rolled the credits ( which I will probably watch again and again, they are so beautiful/peaceful), enjoyed the hell out of the game. Gonna let it sit for a little bit then dive back in and finish all the things I let go by the wayside even with ~110 hours of playtime.

Unlocked The Arena, and tried the first couple of machine challenges. Rewards seem to be very much worth it. Out of 20 timed combat challenges, I am stuck on #2.

Spoiler:

"Machine Reinforcements" starts you in the Arena against a Longleg and a Ravager, with 3 Burrowers that show up later. Even knowing the weaknesses of each, building my loadout to take advantage of those and trying to control the situation, I can't even survive the 3:30. I managed to take out the Longleg with a combination of shocked state plus a Braced Shot, but once the Burrowers show up I am constantly stun-locked in this repeating series of melee and sonic attacks. The Ravager launches itself at me and knocks me over, and literally the second I recover I get stunlocked again with a Burrower sonic attack. They always manage to come in perfectly timed waves that keep me in a state of perpetual Can't Move. I have no idea how to deal with this. I can drench the Ravager to remove its cannon attack, but I can't seem to do much damage to it and I can't set up for any more Braced shots because I don't have time. I still feel like there's some fundamental skill in this game that I am missing once I'm engaged in active combat with multiple machines. Maybe it's just a lack of twitch reflexes? I have no idea. I don't feel like I'm underleveled (26) but failing on #2 out of 20 is disheartening.

I'll just lower the difficulty for these, I think. Not motivated enough to keep beating my head against it.

Most people just set it to Story Mode and farm it for as many Medals as they need to get the equipment they want. It's pretty much a free store for Legendaries.

I'd recommend doing the Hunting Grounds Challenges and getting a few Very Rare equipment, at least.

I like the hunting ground challenges, in that they do a pretty decent job of outlining a particular weapon or tactic and forcing you to explore that. I do still have the issue of getting into a melee with multiple machines, where I just can't manage combat. As useful as smoke bombs are for that situation, I wish you could carry more and/or craft them at the workbench. I am always short on the required materials for those.

Rolled credits Monday night at around 60 hours. That's with doing most of the trophies and several side quests and errands not required for the platinum. I'm at around 47.5 in level and 71ish percent completion. Don't think I'm going to go for 100% right now. Well, I know I'm not because one of my rebel camps is bugged, but maybe eventually. I do want to hit level 50 so I can get the platinum and probably do the rest of the side quests and errands.

I loved this game. I found the story very fun after a little bit of a slow start. I didn't expect this going in, but I got Mass Effect 2 vibes from

Spoiler:

talking to your companions at the base and bringing everyone together for the final mission.

Most of the changes they made from the first game were very welcome. Minor criticisms: I do appreciate what they attempted with the melee combat but I do not like what they came up with. Trying to built out a combo system with two buttons just seemed too much. I'd rather have had just a simple lock-on and parry. It kept me from enjoying the melee pits, which conceptually seem like a cool idea. Also, while I was able to tune out the equipment and skills that I didn't want to use, I can see where it would be a distraction to others. I do think they could have reigned the options in just a little bit.

My favorite game I've played so far this year, and I'm not sick of it yet. Still looking forward to doing so more quests, spending some more time riding around in this world.

Horizon Forbidden West: Best Weapon Techniques

Makes me wish I dug deeper into the weapons. I tend to just unload full quivers of arrows - first the ones that explode parts, then the ones that tear, then regular ones - all while hopping around like a bunny avoiding attacks.

Braced shot not even mentioned and triple notch last on the list? I think that person had a very different game experience than I did.

I think the new mechanics allow you to embrace a variety of styles. So that you can lock in on what
works for you.

For example, my loadout is almost all hunter and sharpshot bows that give me access to direct damage, tear, and all the elemental effects. I focus on elemental effects and direct damage and use tear to remove the annoying weapons from ravagers, thunderjaws, tiderippers etc.

This lets me pick off weapons at range and than wade into medium range combat stuffing elemental effects into the machine and then I focus on pounding weak spots with direct damage. Worked for me pretty well so far. The hardest part was finding a set of bows that gave me everything I wanted.

Now that I'm late game, I'm having fun trying out different weapon combos. My usual strategy is to remove any detachable weapon, then immobilise, then go ham It's been interesting to see how many different ways there are to do each of those things. My only issue is how tedious it can be to upgrade the weapons.

I agree that the author of the article has an incredibly different experience from mine. I almost exclusively engaged at medium to long range, using the Sharpshot Bow a great deal. Also used Smoke Bombs a fair bit. I do think that my relatively quick acquisition of the Legendary Sun Scourge affect my prioritization. It’s got ridiculous amount of Frost, Fire, and Acid element buildup, so it not only single-handedly fulfills many of my elemental demands, but also does it so well that every other weapon in that element becomes obsolete.

I also got the Lightning Bow relatively quickly (before Demeter, after Poseidon), and that’s got a lot of Shock and Purgewater element. One-shot Shock State application is game-changing, especially for farming parts.

But to me, Braced Shot is the most powerful and game-changing Weapon Technique. Being able to one-shot a great many machines from stealth is crazy good.

LarryC wrote:

IBut to me, Braced Shot is the most powerful and game-changing Weapon Technique. Being able to one-shot a great many machines from stealth is crazy good.

+1 Braced Shot is the best way to automatically remove a couple of machines of the battlefield before you get started on the machines you are actually after.

I really enjoy that they took the time to give most quest NPCs a little bit of an epilogue interaction if you check in with them later. This is even the case postgame with some main characters. Really cool.

LarryC wrote:

I do think that my relatively quick acquisition of the Legendary Sun Scourge affect my prioritization. It’s got ridiculous amount of Frost, Fire, and Acid element buildup, so it not only single-handedly fulfills many of my elemental demands, but also does it so well that every other weapon in that element becomes obsolete.

That's from doing the Rebel Camps, right? I agree, even without upgrades, I no longer had any use for elemental blastslings once I got it. Unfortunately, I waited until almost every other quest was done to finish those.

Out of interest, what valor surges do you use? To be honest I forget they exist most of the time! But I started off with the stealth vanish one, and now tend to leave it on the hunter ranged master since I am mostly using bows. But some of the others seem like they could be situationally powerful.

beeporama wrote:
LarryC wrote:

I do think that my relatively quick acquisition of the Legendary Sun Scourge affect my prioritization. It’s got ridiculous amount of Frost, Fire, and Acid element buildup, so it not only single-handedly fulfills many of my elemental demands, but also does it so well that every other weapon in that element becomes obsolete.

That's from doing the Rebel Camps, right? I agree, even without upgrades, I no longer had any use for elemental blastslings once I got it. Unfortunately, I waited until almost every other quest was done to finish those.

Yep. I like sniping human heads, and it got a lot better once I got Penetrating Arrows. Those one-shot humans who have helmets. Once I got that, I just went crazy on the Camps.

I didn't expect the payout so that was surprising.

ComfortZone wrote:

Out of interest, what valor surges do you use? To be honest I forget they exist most of the time! But I started off with the stealth vanish one, and now tend to leave it on the hunter ranged master since I am mostly using bows. But some of the others seem like they could be situationally powerful.

I use Powershots for careful stealth kills and mounted combat. Stealth Stalker for just deleting something annoying from the map ASAP. Ranged Hunter for pitched combat with a lot of Weapon Technique use. Part Breaker for getting detachable parts I really, really need. Overshield for the matches where time isn't a factor and I just need to outlast the enemy.

I pretty much use just Overshield. I don’t think I’ve even tried any of the others.

I beat the main story line Wednesday night and just have some minor cleanup left to do… I think I’m sitting at 82% completion now.

I’m REEEEEALLY looking forward to seeing where the series goes from here and hope we don’t have to wait another 5 years for the next one. I haven’t really analyzed why, but Horizon strikes some notes with me that few games ever have. Actually, the only other one I can think of is Days Gone. Suffice to say Horizon and DG are in an elite company games that have affected me on a deeply personal level.

ComfortZone wrote:

Out of interest, what valor surges do you use? To be honest I forget they exist most of the time! But I started off with the stealth vanish one, and now tend to leave it on the hunter ranged master since I am mostly using bows. But some of the others seem like they could be situationally powerful.

I will conditionally use others, but I run with Toughened on by default as my "oh sh*t button." It seems to heal a lot more than Overshield blocks (I haven't done the math though) and makes you almost impossible to kill for a while.

You're certainly better off with others in some situations-- the best defense is a good offense-- but Toughened is always useful.