Help me build my PC 2020 Catch All

Robear wrote:

Looks fine to me, 5000brians... whichever one of you wrote this... :-)

It was us.

The only part of that build that gives me pause is the Kraken M22 AIO, a 120mm AIO.

The 5800X runs warm, and as an owner of one that's cooled by a 280mm AIO (and occasionally looks at 420mm AIOs as a potential upgrade), I question how well a 120mm AIO is up to the task.

Definitely take stock of CPU temperatures in CPU-heavy workloads.

*Legion* wrote:

The only part of that build that gives me pause is the Kraken M22 AIO, a 120mm AIO.

The 5800X runs warm, and as an owner of one that's cooled by a 280mm AIO (and occasionally looks at 420mm AIOs as a potential upgrade), I question how well a 120mm AIO is up to the task.

Definitely take stock of CPU temperatures in CPU-heavy workloads.

So what is the implication of ‘running warm’? Does the CPU throttle itself if it gets too hot to prevent desoldering itself? Or does it somehow ‘wear out’?

5000brians wrote:

So what is the implication of ‘running warm’? Does the CPU throttle itself if it gets too hot to prevent desoldering itself? Or does it somehow ‘wear out’?

Well, that depends on the level of warmth. There's inadequate cooling, there's adequate but not ideal cooling, and then there's ideal cooling.

With inadequate cooling, a CPU will reach its throttle point, and will begin to clock downwards, reducing performance in an effort to keep the CPU from reaching any dangerous temperature levels. In general, a CPU will keep itself out of the danger zone, but obviously having cooling sufficiently inadequate as to put you into this situation will adversely affect performance. A system that is CPU throttling should be considered to be in an improperly built state, and requires intervention.

Then we have adequate but not ideal cooling. This will allow the CPU to safely operate at its base frequencies, but will limit how much a CPU's clocks can be pushed upwards to try and improve performance. Modern CPUs all have "boost" frequencies, higher clock speeds that they will run at on-demand when there is available thermal headroom for the system to take advantage of. Having a CPU that is sufficiently cooled to avoid throttling, but remains on the warmer side, will mean some potential "boost" performance is left on the table. This isn't an improper state, and for sure, prebuilts often fall somewhere in here.

Finally we have ideal cooling, where a CPU is able to get boosted as high as it is designed to go. The limiting factor on your boost performance then becomes the CPU itself, and not the temperature.

Your system's thermal performance is more than just your AIO, but I think it is safe to say that a 120mm AIO will not put you in the "ideal" category with a warm chip like the 5800X. Getting to your max boost clocks on a 5800X is just going to take a more substantial cooling solution than that.

Most likely you'll fall into that "adequate" category, which is less of a single state of being and more like a wide range of potential levels of performance capping.

I doubt you'll be down in the "thermal throttling" area, which by the way is not unheard of when it comes to prebuilts. My brother just bought a CyberPower PC that we knew had some inadequate cooling out-of-the-box (but it was an easily fixed problem, and the build offered good parts otherwise). But I would just be certain to take a peek at the CPU temperatures under a CPU-heavy workload and know for sure what kind of performance the cooling solution is providing.

I'd actually argue he's likely to end up in thermal throttle territory because of the very pretty case that has genuinely terrible airflow.

If it had any less airflow it would be a hotbox for heat torture testing.

It'll end up louder too cause the fans are going to spin up higher way more often trying to overcome the lack of decent air intake.

To be clear though, vast majority of people won't notice most thermal throttling in situations like that. It doesn't mean you're going to get 10fps. It usually means something more like you get 70 instead of 85 or whatever. If that wasn't the case NZXT wouldn't have made bank selling that 100% form over function case for the last however many years. And it's been a good number of years.

Robear wrote:

It was like 3 days in production, I think. Sounds like you are still on track? Hope so.

Not started production by EOD today. I don't think they'll make their expected ship date (Tuesday).

*Legion* wrote:

Then we have adequate but not ideal cooling. This will allow the CPU to safely operate at its base frequencies, but will limit how much a CPU's clocks can be pushed upwards to try and improve performance. Modern CPUs all have "boost" frequencies, higher clock speeds that they will run at on-demand when there is available thermal headroom for the system to take advantage of. Having a CPU that is sufficiently cooled to avoid throttling, but remains on the warmer side, will mean some potential "boost" performance is left on the table. This isn't an improper state, and for sure, prebuilts often fall somewhere in here.

Interesting...so is that sort of the equivalent of "built-in" manufacturer-approved overclocking?

Side question: Remember the Turbo button? Did anyone ever turn OFF turbo mode?

*Legion* wrote:

But I would just be certain to take a peek at the CPU temperatures under a CPU-heavy workload and know for sure what kind of performance the cooling solution is providing.

I'll be back to find out how to do that!

Thin_J wrote:

I'd actually argue he's likely to end up in thermal throttle territory because of the very pretty case that has genuinely terrible airflow.

If it had any less airflow it would be a hotbox for heat torture testing.

It'll end up louder too cause the fans are going to spin up higher way more often trying to overcome the lack of decent air intake.

As an engineer I immediately thought: environmental test chamber?

My personal tastes aren't for the "gamer" looking cases, so the case seemed reasonably plain. Once I'm past warranty maybe I could bust out the drill/saw and add my own airflow?

You totally could.

I think first I would look into whether or not the front panel from the newest version of the case will fit on yours. NZXT finally released an airflow focused version like last month, years and years later.

If the panel is interchangeable you might be able to contact them or their parts division or something and buy just a new panel.

*If* it effects you in any way that bothers you at all in the first place, that is!

Side question: Remember the Turbo button? Did anyone ever turn OFF turbo mode?

Yeah when you tried to play an old DOS game that would just run super fast and be unplayable.

5000brians wrote:

Interesting...so is that sort of the equivalent of "built-in" manufacturer-approved overclocking?

Essentially, yes. Boosting behavior has definitely blurred the line between what's stock and what's overclocking. On the AMD side, there's a complicated mix of standard (XFR, Precision Boost) and optional (Precision Boost Overdrive, AutoOC) features that all relate to exceeding the "base" frequencies and power usage in relatively push-button ways.

I'll be back to find out how to do that!

I'll be here to answer, but in brief: download HWINFO64.

Thin_J wrote:

You totally could.

I think first I would look into whether or not the front panel from the newest version of the case will fit on yours. NZXT finally released an airflow focused version like last month, years and years later.

If the panel is interchangeable you might be able to contact them or their parts division or something and buy just a new panel.

*If* it effects you in any way that bothers you at all in the first place, that is!

I've got an NZXT nearly identical to the one in 5000brians order. I love it and haven't had any thermal problems (most of the sound issues I've discussed upthread come from a fan going bad in my 10 year old power supply). There are lots of cleverly hidden vents. The front part of the case is designed to house a radiator for a waterblock and there are vents below and to the side to support airflow. One of the nice things about the solid, monolithic front design is that it doesn't accumulate any dust at all.

*Legion* wrote:

The only part of that build that gives me pause is the Kraken M22 AIO, a 120mm AIO.

The 5800X runs warm, and as an owner of one that's cooled by a 280mm AIO (and occasionally looks at 420mm AIOs as a potential upgrade), I question how well a 120mm AIO is up to the task.

Definitely take stock of CPU temperatures in CPU-heavy workloads.

I just put in a 5900x and I'm curious whats your idle/load temps look like on that 280mm AIO. I'm running a high end Noctua Air cooler on it and idle is sitting around 37-40 degrees depending on the temp in the house.

Stele wrote:
Side question: Remember the Turbo button? Did anyone ever turn OFF turbo mode?

Yeah when you tried to play an old DOS game that would just run super fast and be unplayable.

Fun fact that everyone here probably knows already, but whatever:

The Turbo button didn't actually make your CPU run twice as fast; it made it run your CPU run at half-speed when the button was deactivated. Calling it a "turbo" button was all marketing - after all, why would anyone want a button on their expensive and bright beige new computer to make it run slower (for compatibility reasons with old DOS games, as noted).

Any monitor recommendations? Is G-Sync a required feature? I’d like to keep the price under $300 and am looking at some of the cyber deals today…

Gumbie wrote:
*Legion* wrote:

The only part of that build that gives me pause is the Kraken M22 AIO, a 120mm AIO.

The 5800X runs warm, and as an owner of one that's cooled by a 280mm AIO (and occasionally looks at 420mm AIOs as a potential upgrade), I question how well a 120mm AIO is up to the task.

Definitely take stock of CPU temperatures in CPU-heavy workloads.

I just put in a 5900x and I'm curious whats your idle/load temps look like on that 280mm AIO. I'm running a high end Noctua Air cooler on it and idle is sitting around 37-40 degrees depending on the temp in the house.

FWIW, I'm running a 5800X with Arctic Cooling's Liquid Freezer II 280 AIO (upgraded to Noctua fans) and my CPU idles at 35°C to 40°C. After a few minutes of Prime95, CPU temp peaked at 73°C. I don't think I've seen it go near 80°C under extended Prime95 runs, nor under regular CPU-intense workloads like running complex cloth simulations in Marvelous Designer. I should also note that I'm using the Lian Li Lancool 2 Mesh case, so I got a LOT of airflow in this rig.

5000brians wrote:

Any monitor recommendations? Is G-Sync a required feature? I’d like to keep the price under $300 and am looking at some of the cyber deals today…

RTINGS Cyber Monday deals list

The Gigabyte M27Q that's $280 on Amazon seems to be the best sub-$300 option. 1440p, IPS, 170hz, Freesync Premium (G-Sync compatible). It's RTINGS's pick for best budget 1440p gaming monitor in their recommendations article.

Gumbie wrote:

I just put in a 5900x and I'm curious whats your idle/load temps look like on that 280mm AIO. I'm running a high end Noctua Air cooler on it and idle is sitting around 37-40 degrees depending on the temp in the house.

I was hitting low 80s in Cinebench (tested with a fairly low ambient temperature).

I have since disabled PBO (which doesn't move the needle much anyway) and applied a little bit of an undervolt, and dropped Cinebench testing down into the low 70s in the same ambient conditions.

Idle is in the low 30s, but that's with undervolt in place. I don't recall the idle temps before the undervolt.

Note that the 5800X will actually run warmer than your 5900X despite the smaller core count. The 5800X packs all 8 cores on a single CCX, which has some performance benefit but also makes for an extra warm hotspot, while the 5900X spreads its 12 cores out over two CCXs, so neither one is quite as much of a hotspot.

*Legion* wrote:

The Gigabyte M27Q that's $280 on Amazon seems to be the best sub-$300 option. 1440p, IPS, 170hz, Freesync Premium (G-Sync compatible). It's RTINGS's pick for best budget 1440p gaming monitor in their recommendations article.

FWIW, I got one of those this past spring and have been really happy with it.

misplacedbravado wrote:
*Legion* wrote:

The Gigabyte M27Q that's $280 on Amazon seems to be the best sub-$300 option. 1440p, IPS, 170hz, Freesync Premium (G-Sync compatible). It's RTINGS's pick for best budget 1440p gaming monitor in their recommendations article.

FWIW, I got one of those this past spring and have been really happy with it.

So what about curved displays? Just a gimmick? I see the M27QC is a similar price (tho it’s VA vs IPS and has some other differences).

5000brians wrote:

So what about curved displays? Just a gimmick? I see the M27QC is a similar price (tho it’s VA vs IPS and has some other differences).

I haven't used them myself, but as I understand it they're a lot better about avoiding glare from lights and windows.

Apparently, curved displays are up to the observer. So I'd suggest going to a best buy or something and looking at a curved display yourself to determine whether it is the bees knees or not.

I can't imagine it making much impact but there are those that spend $$$ for 3 of them to get nearly a half circle of viewing.

Vargen wrote:
5000brians wrote:

So what about curved displays? Just a gimmick? I see the M27QC is a similar price (tho it’s VA vs IPS and has some other differences).

I haven't used them myself, but as I understand it they're a lot better about avoiding glare from lights and windows.

TA panel curve is helpful imho due to reduced viewing angle. If you're only using one TA monitor then I wouldn't avoid it, certainly. But a non-budget flat TA panel should also be fine (a $300 monitor isn't budget so you're good there).

If you use multiple monitors then I'm not sure how thingsll work out with curved as I've never tried.

Personally, I love TA, but dark games can be an eyesore on them because of the smearing that goes on. Dungeons in Skyrim, for instance, look abysmal, but part of that is on Bethesda's overall rendering.

5000brians wrote:

So what about curved displays? Just a gimmick? I see the M27QC is a similar price (tho it’s VA vs IPS and has some other differences).

Curved displays are a matter of taste.

My opinion: they can be cool for big screens close up, and for ultrawides. I work on a 34" ultrawide, and I found that after work when switching over to my 27" flat monitor on my gaming PC, it felt like the corners of the flat screen were leaning away from me.

I picked up a 32" Odyssey G7 as an early Black Friday sale purchase to replace my flat 27" panel. I haven't used it a lot, and the curve is quite aggressive on that screen, but I am looking forward to using it more (just as soon as my more heavy-duty monitor arm arrives).

I would worry more about monitor quality than curve. The smaller the screen, the less difference (and less sense, IMO) a curve makes. I would really only consider curves to be mandatory for ultrawides, and even there, a gentle curve is enough. The more aggressive the curve, the closer you want the screen to your face, so that the curve is closer to your periphery (hence my need for that monitor arm, to shove that G7 bad boy right up against my stupid face). Also, anyone doing design work will want to think twice about curved displays, as the curve naturally bends lines.

*Legion* wrote:
5000brians wrote:

So what about curved displays? Just a gimmick? I see the M27QC is a similar price (tho it’s VA vs IPS and has some other differences).

Curved displays are a matter of taste.

My opinion: they can be cool for big screens close up, and for ultrawides. I work on a 34" ultrawide, and I found that after work when switching over to my 27" flat monitor on my gaming PC, it felt like the corners of the flat screen were leaning away from me.

I picked up a 32" Odyssey G7 as an early Black Friday sale purchase to replace my flat 27" panel. I haven't used it a lot, and the curve is quite aggressive on that screen, but I am looking forward to using it more (just as soon as my more heavy-duty monitor arm arrives).

I would worry more about monitor quality than curve. The smaller the screen, the less difference (and less sense, IMO) a curve makes. I would really only consider curves to be mandatory for ultrawides, and even there, a gentle curve is enough. The more aggressive the curve, the closer you want the screen to your face, so that the curve is closer to your periphery (hence my need for that monitor arm, to shove that G7 bad boy right up against my stupid face). Also, anyone doing design work will want to think twice about curved displays, as the curve naturally bends lines.

My Asus TA is 32", fwiw. And, yeah, I'm not using it for design or anything anymore.

misplacedbravado wrote:
*Legion* wrote:

The Gigabyte M27Q that's $280 on Amazon seems to be the best sub-$300 option. 1440p, IPS, 170hz, Freesync Premium (G-Sync compatible). It's RTINGS's pick for best budget 1440p gaming monitor in their recommendations article.

FWIW, I got one of those this past spring and have been really happy with it.

Interesting. Since I keep WFH I've been trying to talk myself (and the wife) into something 27ish or more with 1440p. After I got the 3060 on my home PC, maxing everything in 1080p is just boring the last few months.

Plus I'd like something with DP connection. My old 1080p monitors are using HDMI switches to toggle with work laptop and I don't think I'm getting full performance for gaming.

Pulled the trigger on an Alienware Aurora R12 for ~$1200 shipped just to get my hands on a 3060.

I think I'll rip out the 3060 and re-sell the PC locally.

It's a nice box, don't want to keep it?

I think it'll be easier to re-sell than my personally built rig.

Oh, yeah, that's probably true.

garion333 wrote:
*Legion* wrote:
5000brians wrote:

So what about curved displays? Just a gimmick? I see the M27QC is a similar price (tho it’s VA vs IPS and has some other differences).

Curved displays are a matter of taste.

My opinion: they can be cool for big screens close up, and for ultrawides. I work on a 34" ultrawide, and I found that after work when switching over to my 27" flat monitor on my gaming PC, it felt like the corners of the flat screen were leaning away from me.

I picked up a 32" Odyssey G7 as an early Black Friday sale purchase to replace my flat 27" panel. I haven't used it a lot, and the curve is quite aggressive on that screen, but I am looking forward to using it more (just as soon as my more heavy-duty monitor arm arrives).

I would worry more about monitor quality than curve. The smaller the screen, the less difference (and less sense, IMO) a curve makes. I would really only consider curves to be mandatory for ultrawides, and even there, a gentle curve is enough. The more aggressive the curve, the closer you want the screen to your face, so that the curve is closer to your periphery (hence my need for that monitor arm, to shove that G7 bad boy right up against my stupid face). Also, anyone doing design work will want to think twice about curved displays, as the curve naturally bends lines.

My Asus TA is 32", fwiw. And, yeah, I'm not using it for design or anything anymore.

Well thanks for all the input! I researched a few options and decided on the M27Q. Should be here in a week! Hopefully arrives around the same time as my new PC!