Metroid Series Catch-All

EvilDead wrote:

For me it's that there is less natural exploration and it leans towards guided exploration. I'm near the end and I know it has opened up more but most of the game was pretty point A > B for me.

I mean, that kinda is what Metroid has always been. It's not an open world game.

EvilDead wrote:

I could do away with quick time events though. Not that any have been too challenging, I just kind of hate them on principle and always forget to do them the first time.

That I agree with. But at least these are just button press. Not button mash.

Spider-Man and Miles Morales I forgave because they gave you the option to hold instead of rapid tap. Most every other game that tries it can go to hell.

merphle wrote:
EvilDead wrote:

For me it's that there is less natural exploration and it leans towards guided exploration. I'm near the end and I know it has opened up more but most of the game was pretty point A > B for me.

I mean, that kinda is what Metroid has always been. It's not an open world game.

Edit:

I don't think natural exploration = open world. In Dread I have been pointed at the next spot, I need to go, after beating a Boss/getting an ability just about every time while paths close behind me. It's been a while since I last played a Metroid so the guided route might be the way it's always been. I also just came off a few other "metroidvanias" that felt much more exploratory.

I also don't have a problem with it.

Stele wrote:
EvilDead wrote:

I could do away with quick time events though. Not that any have been too challenging, I just kind of hate them on principle and always forget to do them the first time.

That I agree with. But at least these are just button press. Not button mash.

Spider-Man and Miles Morales I forgave because they gave you the option to hold instead of rapid tap. Most every other game that tries it can go to hell.

Haha. I will have to remember that for Spiderman as I own the game but it's in the backlog.

Super Metroid was definitely guided for a good chunk of it, but the moments it wasn't are also notorious for being major blockers for newbies. I know I have forgotten a lot of places I sat around wondering where the heck I was supposed to go, but it certainly happened in the first trip to Norfair and definitely in Miridia. Heck, Miridia is such a slow down in Super because of its vast size and directionless nature.

I think Dread is a decent balance, though I wish the world were more interconnected. By having them as separate zones you don't have as many options for shortcuts between each area, but chances are they needed to have trains, elevators, and teleporters to load unique assets and all that stuff. So, they did what they could, and I think it does a decent job of keeping someone from being lost too long (unless you ignore the critical path they lead you on, in which case it can be easy to get distracted and forget where you were supposed to be going).

Beat it tonight, 10 hours 22 seconds with 91% item collection. Most of what's left are shinespark related, and I may just need to look up how to get them. I felt pretty accomplished at most of what I managed, but some of these are so obtuse.

That final boss was a son of a gun, and I'll probably have more thoughts on him later. Stele, if you can manage to do a 4 hour run and beat him, I commend you. I got to the point where I realized how to get through the first two phases with minimal damage, but that last phase is a son of a gun. Once again, I do believe Nintendo ought to offer a casual difficulty patched in. Even though I really like a challenge, it's possible that I'll just want to go back for a more relaxing time instead.

I'll have more thoughts later. Still unpacking. Such a good game.

Yeah after the 4th or 5th try on the final boss, I was making the 2nd phase with full health and ammo every single time. When you counter you get a lot of refill items.

Going for 100% items now is reminding me where everything is. Hopefully I can just do a speed run next.

I got the morph ball and then I was really lost for an hour. I finally had to look up a walkthrough, which just by telling me the area was enough of a hint to get me to the right place.

Some bad news time: there's a "progress-ending bug" towards the game's end that involves a map marker on a door. It'll immediately close the game, though I don't know if that means you can't just reload your save and keep going from there. The solution is basically to remove the map marker from the door and there you go. The article doesn't specify which door, however, though I think there's a couple clues to hint you into which one it may be (and, honestly, probably is unlikely for anyone to place a map marker on). There will be a patch issued by the end of the month.

The other bad news: MercurySteam the latest developer to have uncredited staff in the credits, with the excuse being that you are only credited if you contributed to more than 25% of development or made exceptional contributions. This is nothing new for the industry, as many games fail to credit members no longer with the studio, period. I'm wondering if there's some legality reason for this, and if this also happens in other industries such as film. Regardless, it's a negative stain on an otherwise excellent game.

So going back through the thread to address some stuff I missed and give more detailed thoughts, I noticed a couple of things, one of them being EMMI zones. Something to note: for most EMMI's, don't worry about shooting making noise. If they can hear you shoot, they can probably already hear your footsteps. So if you're far enough away that they can't hear your footsteps, you can go ahead and shoot stuff in the walls or missile some of the little security things. I think only the explosive mine-things will alert to your position, but if you blow those up with a missile then it's no problem.

Stele wrote:

Looks like Anti is leading the way! I got to the info dump he mentioned last night and whoa boy did that explain a lot but also raised a lot of questions.

Like

Spoiler:

why the hell would any faction of Chozo want to exterminate the Metroid race, when they knew about the X parasite? Doesn't add up. Maybe I missed something?

Anyway working my way towards the suggested elevator.

Story discussion time!

Spoiler:

So my initial speculation was way off. I was also curious to see what your theory ultimately was that you never stated.

However, honestly, the whole X Parasite and Metroid thing doesn't make sense to begin with and I just dump into the "Yoshio Sakamoto doesn't know what to do with this franchise" bucket. The Chozo created the Metroid. The Metroid is the only predator of the X Parasite. The X Parasite is capable of taking over an entire planet in no time. The X Parasite is from SR-388. There is clearly uninfected life on SR-388 when Samus goes down to exterminate the Metroids, which is where the Chozo sent them in order to combat the X-Parasite. But if the X-Parasite are able to immediately swallow up the whole planet's population without any Metroids to keep them in check, then there should never have been any wildlife on SR-388 in the first place other than Metroids and X.

Basically, it would make more sense if both the Metroids and X were native to SR-388, and the only thing keeping the X in check were the Metroids, because as devastating as the Metroids are, you could argue that there's a sort of "built in instinct" to not kill everything as that'd eliminate their food source (which we've already seen that the X don't seem to treat their hosts as food sources so much as... I dunno. A body to walk around in?)

Regardless, at this stage I've just come to accept that Sakamoto's Metroid has bad contrivances in it, and that MercurySteam managed to take his ideas and execute on them quite well. I feel like the idea of such differing Chozo tribes is like the movie Predators making a bigger, badder subset of Predators that hunt other Predators and is just... meh, but I can't help but enjoy the scene where Samus first encounters Quiet Robe, or when you discover ADAM has been Raven Beak the whole time (which makes sense. At one point I noticed ADAM hasn't been referring to you as Lady, but I perceived that as a positive since I'm not fond of that whole shtick. On the other hand, it does lead to some degree of contrivance for the whole plot to work, but if I recall I guess the logic is "He saw the Metroid power in her and decided to put her through the wringer in order to get that instinct full and give her the whole 'join me and use the dark side' speech and yatta yatta". So, I guess?)

In the end, though, what I really appreciated was Samus' characterization. They gave her minimal dialogue, what dialogue she spoke was succinct and decisive, and the only time we hear her voice is when she's confirming her mission and screaming her head off ripping Raven Beak's life energy out. It was perfect. Even moments like her aiming down Quiet Robe, only to fully relax in her sitting position when she realizes he's peaceful, was perfect.

The question now is: where to from here? Sakamoto was talking about this game being a sort of "definitive end", and it certainly seems that way. The first time you stumble upon the chamber of the X-Parasites, seeing armor collapsing and everything, my mind went to Super Metroid and everything crumbling to dust. "Oh noooooo, Metroids! I don't have ice powers! Oh no!" I was wrong, and it was a nice little switcheroo (that, admittedly, makes more sense since Raven Beak wouldn't have been able to clone Metroids yet), but this is a Metroid game without any Metroids (and without any unnecessary inclusion of Ridley, thank goodness). Samus' Metroid DNA is the last of it, and if my reading is correct, Quiet Robe was somehow able to mingle with his X Parasite in such a way that he passed on a cure from the Metroid DNA or something. So, unless one of the other endings reveals a greater detail, there's no Metroid anything left in the galaxy. Samus is "cured", the Metroids are extinct, and so are the X Parasite.

So are we just left to the Prime series now? Are they truly two separate timelines? Will there be any other 2D Metroid games? I know time will tell, but I guess it just has me curious as to where you go from here. At the same time, if this is to be the definitive end to the "2D timeline", so to speak, I'd be cool with that.

In regards to what I found worked for the final boss (I'm gonna spoiler it but I'd say give it a read if you want some tips before fighting him):

Spoiler:

First, here's a timestamp to my victory attempt. For the record, it was my ninth attempt, so... yeah it was a pain. Now then, let's get to the specifics of the boss. Keep in mind this is no "definitive guide", but a list of tips and strategies. I expect others to chime in and add since I know there's stuff I didn't get right or figure out.

FIRST PHASE: From what I can tell, what matters in this phase are getting two counter-opportunities rather than damage dealt. I'd have to experiment a bit, but it might actually be wise to use no missiles in this phase at all and just rely on plasma beam for damage, in the event that certain attacks/events are only triggered based on the damage he deals. The most obnoxious is going to be the gravity ball he sends out, where you'll want to lock on and destroy with storm missiles. Unfortunately, if you're conserving ammo, then you may not constantly be charging missiles to prepare the lock-on. Fortunately, he looks like he's about to charge a kamehameha when he's going to toss it out, so it gives you some time to prepare. Destroying the gravity ball gets you some health and missiles back, so you're going to want to at least make the attempt. Regardless, this gravity ball is always followed by his heat beam, so launch your missiles, slide under the gravity ball, and get close. Hopefully the gravity ball is destroyed, because you're going to need to phase shift away at least twice to gain some distance, then start screw-attacking above and to his other side.

I honestly think this is the most difficult part of this phase to avoid damage, only because you have to get enough storm missiles on that gravity ball to secure your escape route. Sliding under? Not much problem. Phase shifting away? If it's still tracking then it'll block your escape and get you caught in his melee combo.

The next big item is his screen covering heat wave. Dodging this one is a must, because it's one of two counter opportunities that will get you to phase two faster. All you gotta do is slide under the heat wave and it'll activate the cut-scene. Get that counter and then start launching missiles. There was one phase I forgot to fire off missiles, and it just cut out of the whole thing and resumed combat. So constantly shooting is necessary. Don't worry, you'll get health and missiles back. Regardless, this is probably easiest.

In this phase he'll do a charge attack with a counter opportunity. It's kind of hard to differentiate from some of his other attacks, but he slowly leans down with one arm behind his back before launching across. If you have faith in your counter abilities, then go for it. You'll get some health and ammo back. Otherwise, just screw attack into the air once you see him crouch in that position. You can see me do this in the video above. This counter does not result in the quick-timey cut-scene. In other words, the benefit is minimal, so if you aren't that good at counter timing, don't feel the need to risk it.

When he is outlined in gold, he is impervious to damage. The only thing you can do here is shoot away the gravity ball and either wait for the heat wave attack or for him to stand there, laughing, motioning for you to approach. This is what you're waiting for. Accept his taunt, and as you get closer get that counter ready. It's honestly pretty easy to time, and will engage the quick-time cut-scene as well. So, with the heat wave, these are the two most important attacks/counters of the first phase, as executing on both will get you to phase two.

SECOND PHASE: This is actually the easiest one, once you know what to look for. So long as you keep moving you can dodge his downward stomps. In addition, you can usually tell when he's preparing for it as he lifts his legs up and stops taking aim. Just use his recovery to lock on some missiles and fire (remember, always be charging your storm missile).

The most difficult one to time or dodge is his big charge blast, but that's only if he doesn't bother charging first. I feel like he might start out with an immediate one, and it also seems he has a limit to how far he can follow Samus' movements. Regardless, best bet is to keep moving and use phase shift. Try and move towards him so that, when he stops, you're behind and able to lock on some missiles. You can always tell he's charging this blast because the side of his body will be towards the screen/you, the player holding the controller. In other words, he'll fully face Samus.

This is counter to his other arm cannon attack, where the front of his body is facing the screen/you, the player. This one, just screw attack in close proximity to him in circles and you'll avoid damage.

Lastly, if he flies down towards the ground, that's when you get ready to do another slide dodge. He sweeps over, but it's easy to just slip underneath and avoid damage. With enough patience, you can easily complete this phase without taking damage, or taking minimal damage overall. There are no counters to worry about, which leads you to...

PHASE THREE: As you can tell in the video above, I really could have used the trick Stele pointed out: use the power bomb when he chucks out the sun. Heck, this might even work when he tosses out the gravity ball, now that I think about it. However, I feel like you don't have nearly as much time to prepare as when he unleashes the sun. As soon as he stands upright and points his arm cannon upward, get into morphball mode and charge that power bomb. That's my advice, at least. Stele might be able to give more tips.

After that, it's mostly his phase one attacks with some changes. He now has a speed boost attack which cannot be countered, so you'll have to recognize the difference in his downward lunge. I believe the most obvious tell is the energy gathering around him, indicating he is about to speed boost. Just get your screw attack on and he won't hit you.

The giant cannon is his other unique phase, which I can only really recommend screw attack carefully at a mid-height before moving up and towards him. This is the best I can think to describe baiting him into aiming at a specific spot and safely coming back down.

He does not perform the heat wave or baiting, from what I can tell, so no counter phases save the one attack. Just deal some damage. I've no doubt that being able to power bomb that mini-sun does wonders for survivability.

And those are my tips towards fighting the final boss. If anyone else has anything to add, feel free to do so.

On the whole, I really liked this game. Uncertain I have it in me to do the speedrun, I've always been more about item collection than hasty times. Given the nature of MercurySteam's two Metroid games now, I have a feeling they're big on the speed run aspect of Metroid, as well as the shinespark tricks aspect. Which means even the attempts to 100% might be too frustrating for me. Nevertheless, I really enjoyed it, and it's clear I'm still thinking about it, and will probably play it more. Will I tackle hard mode? Don't know, but writing up all this info on the final boss has me thinking... maybe.

I can speak quickly on final boss. Story thoughts will take more time. For one thing I looked up some strategy once I got stuck on phase 2 multiple times...

Spoiler:

Yes first phase ends with 3 counters. It doesn't matter how much damage you do. You just have to trigger 3 successful counters and then the big double counter scene will play to transition to phase 2. I still shoot missiles during the entire counter cutscene because you get enough refills to restore them. Like I mentioned before, I had full health and ammo starting phase 2 every time.

There are 3 good times to counter. CC mentioned the full screen attack. Slide towards him under that and counter yes. He also does a similar stance to when he's releasing the orb from the far side of the room but then charges you instead. And there's a counter window to that attack. Timing is tight but I did it a few times. And the other is when he taunts you. Sprint towards him and dash melee, easy counter. Then you have to counter again in the cutscene to keep it going I think?

Phase 2 is all about damage. So I suggest the storm missiles. Always be holding R. Dodging is key though. You can space jump around him in a circle to avoid the machine gun type fire. But you can also use dash. CC is right about trying to get behind him for the big charge laser. You can usually lock multiple storm missiles then.

Phase 3 is just phase 1 on steroids. The new orange ball and I think he used a stronger beam attack too? Seriously after doing phase 1 so much this one was easy. Storm missiles still help if you've got the ammo.

For phases 1 and 3, he does that dash attack just above the ground. I think tapping zL to morph is the best way to avoid. Some tips I've seen said jump over but I was too slow for that. And you're safe low on the ground.

This one's not about Dread, but does link to some of my assertions/beliefs regarding lore in the setting and the character of Samus. Evidently this video was released last year before Dread was announced. However, it really indicates how the localization of Other M really missed a lot of details regarding lore (it turns out there might have been reason for Nightmare and Phantoon outside of cameo/for fun), the specific corruption within the Galactic Federation military and how the Federation is structured, and most of all, what Samus' character arc was actually supposed to be.

Personally, I still don't think it was the story arc for Samus, and to link back with Stele in regards to things that don't make sense: why would Samus, who was trained by Chozo since her youth and given an awesome suit of adaptable power armor that a corrupt Galactic Federation military would love to take and study for their own replication, just go and start over in the Galactic Federation's military before going solo? It didn't make sense to me in Fusion, and it really made less sense in Other M, and it still feels nonsensical now.

Nonetheless, the above video clarified some false assumptions I had and gave me a bit of a better appreciation for what Sakamoto was trying to do, even if I think he was trying to develop the protagonist in the wrong way.

And to continue my Friday Metroid obsession, here's a hard mode 0% all bosses no damage compilation. Who knew shinespark was so useful in combat scenarios? (spoilers, obviously)

A trick I learned about shinesparking from watching some speedrunning is that you can enable it by doing a melee attack.

IMAGE(https://media4.giphy.com/media/aAJqEavIiRZOU/giphy.gif?cid=5e214886g1paabappsrsqav6imprc46l64qern7fbxftn6x6&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)

Apparently I don’t use

Spoiler:

storm missile

nearly often enough—not that I’ve even turned on my switch in 3 days now. But when I do, I know more is in order.

ccesarano wrote:

And to continue my Friday Metroid obsession, here's a hard mode 0% all bosses no damage compilation. Who knew shinespark was so useful in combat scenarios? (spoilers, obviously)

Yeah I used speed boost to kill some boss in Super Metroid. Was a good speed run tactic then too.

They really do honor the series with most of this game.

EDIT: Actually watching the video now. And saving. Those are solid boss strategies even for a normal % run. Just can work more missiles in. But it shows all the good counter spots and places to dodge. Love it.

trueheart78 wrote:

A trick I learned about shinesparking from watching some speedrunning is that you can enable it by doing a melee attack.

Damn that would have helped with some of these puzzles on my 100% quest.

I've got all but one zone done now. Maybe tonight can finish.

Antichulius wrote:

Apparently I don’t use

Spoiler:

storm missile

nearly often enough—not that I’ve even turned on my switch in 3 days now. But when I do, I know more is in order.

Sorry you got sick. Can't believe I finished before you. Get to it man, Samus has another planet to blow up.

Welp, I just beat the

Spoiler:

Robot Chozo Warrior

Which felt like a major difficulty spike. This one took me a whole lot of attempts, especially as compared to the first couple. I just did not feel like I could get the timing down well.

Spoiler:

I eventually realized that I need to use that phase shift dodge (I forget what it's called) to avoid the red slicing attack, but I kept trying to jump over and then slide, rather than sliding through the Chozo. This was a problem, I think, because I would get caught by the attack while in the air. I also had a harder time with melee counter timing than with either the first boss or with Kraid.

I'm also definitely feeling the annoyance at the Joy-Cons, and a bit of awkwardness in the control scheme, because

Spoiler:

Clicking the L stick in to run is not great. And I'm also finding that the game seems to love puzzles that involve giving you just barely enough room to set up a shinespark. If anyone has tricks to pull off shinesparks more effectively, I'm all ears! I'll be trying a pro controller over the weekend, probably.

Shinespark doesn’t feel great on any controller, IMO. I just skip puzzles that need it mostly.

I was worried about that left stick click before, we discussed it. It seems ok on pro controller. But still I prefer the Fusion/Zero just sprint all the time. I know they did it because of lack of buttons but it was just better than way. Then you would know when you had room to speed boost because it would just happen. Would save everyone a lot of frustration.

Stele wrote:

Final time 7:14. It didn't show item % on final screen but it was still 48.

And 9:49 time for 100% completion. Some really cool concept art but since there are no ending screens based on item percentage I doubt I'll be doing that again.

Now do I go for 4 hours in normal or hard? From what I've read it doesn't sound like hard gives you the normal rewards too, so 2 more runs either way.

What are the rewards for normal and hard finishes under 4 hours?

Just more ending gallery rewards. And then a bonus one when you get all 6 other endings.

At least the normal/hard ones are cumulative. If you get the 4, they give you the 8 and 12.

Oh nice. Might actually get me to replay the game too. I can see it'll be fun to try a speedrun.

I'm really liking this one a lot. This'll be a marquee game for me.

I have not been keeping up my GOTY list good reminder.

I ended up starting a hard mode run yesterday. Folks have said that the difference between the modes is both enemy health and damage boosts, but none of the enemies seem to be taking more damage to me. Same number of shots or missiles regardless. Has me wondering if the only difference is damage dealt by enemies and everyone just assumes enemies have more health.

Gonna be a tight race between this, Death’s Door, and MH Rise for my GotY

ccesarano wrote:

I ended up starting a hard mode run yesterday. Folks have said that the difference between the modes is both enemy health and damage boosts, but none of the enemies seem to be taking more damage to me. Same number of shots or missiles regardless. Has me wondering if the only difference is damage dealt by enemies and everyone just assumes enemies have more health.

Without knowing more, I'd buy that. And scaling up enemy damage, but not enemy health, would help ensure that speed runs remain equally possible on hard (so long as you're good at dodging / countering).

I did hard mode today too, just up through Charge beam. And counter, then shoot still kills everything in one shot. So far doesn't feel any harder. First mini boss soon.

Spoiler:

Kraid

was the first thing on hard to teach me how imperfect my play was, but it wasn't too bad. Three attempts, maybe four? Definitely never thinking of doing a four hour speedrun on Hard mode, though. I feel like I need all the energy tanks I can get.

Just took down the next boss:

Spoiler:

Drogyga - great fight. Took me a handful of tries, as I didn't get immediately get the gimmick about lowering the water. But I really liked the interactivity with objects in the room and the need to use traversal powers as well as my weapons. Reminded me of a good Zelda boss.

Still, no new item? That felt weird.