[Discussion] Impeachment, Legacy, and Discussion of Individual 45

Though noted as discussion, news, debate, and all things related to events that occurred during the Tr*mp administration can go here. The scope of this thread is specific to the former administration and it's hangers-on in the aftermath of the shift in power for the United States and impacted areas worldwide.

I think the frustration from some is from two main things. One, you may not be hurting anyone by trying to reach out, but there is always an opportunity cost. You could be spending that time doing something more helpful to society. But I still play Minecraft, so I don't have any room to talk about how you spend your free time.
The second thing, for me anyway, is what are you going to do after you find "common ground?" If you can't agree about basic objective facts of the world we live in, you will never agree on how to solve even the common ground issues. These people think Trump can fix everything! The guy who lost money running a casino! They all think their officials are "the good ones." No Republican wants campaign finance reform, and they won't vote for a Democrat ever. There is no next step as long as they are fed lies they want to believe.

For like the 10 millionth time in this thread since this conversation started, it’s not about “reaching out” or “reconciling” or “deprogramming” or any other word that means doing something proactive, it’s about straight up not abandoning people and cutting all ties with them like several people were advocating. I don’t try to convince my MAGA family members, I occasionally get into arguments with them but I’m under no illusion that I’ll convince them of anything and I don’t really try to, and I really don’t even talk to them that much, maybe a couple times a month, a bit more near holidays.
…But what is it that I actually do? What is the great effort I’m making here? I leave lines of communication open if they want to talk about something, see how I’m doing, or just want to shoot the sh*t.

That’s literally it.

I haven’t cut ties with them because it literally costs me nothing to check in with them periodically and the far right communities they spend most of their time in don’t want them talking to someone like me. Me doing nothing but being normal and reachable is a beacon of contradiction to the 100’s of times a week that some rando stranger on telegram tells them that I’m an evil baby-eating ghoul that secretly stormed the Capitol building. I don’t expect them to turn around and vote for AOC in 2028, but at the very least it might make them think twice about the guy who calls me a pedophile and then tells them to check out the Volkish community but “don’t worry about the swastikas, it’s just an aesthetic.” JFC people, I didn’t think this would be a difficult concept when I made the initial post. I’ve put more effort into this conversation than I have the last several months of talking to my evil murderous nazi family members you all are trying to warn me about.

Seth wrote:

The left needs people willing to shut out the unreachable and the left also needs people willing to convert fascists. Be one of the two, vigorously disagree as to which strategy is best, and close f*cking ranks when we need to.

Perhaps it's my legendary lack of imagination, but I just don't see how one can have compassion and empathy for MAGA/QAnon/KKK *and* the people they oppress. How does that work, exactly? "I'm compassionate towards neo-Confederates but also towards the Black community"? "I always extend a friendly ear towards evangelicals, but also towards my LGBTQAI+ friends and colleagues"?

Seth, I appreciate your post, but what if the Left *was* a monolith, completely intolerant of traitors, Nazis, and, as you mention, alt-right choads? Wouldn't that be better for the country? More Shermans, fewer Peace Democrats, please.

Natus wrote:

Perhaps it's my legendary lack of imagination, but I just don't see how one can have compassion and empathy for MAGA/QAnon/KKK *and* the people they oppress. How does that work, exactly? "I'm compassionate towards neo-Confederates but also towards the Black community"? "I always extend a friendly ear towards evangelicals, but also towards my LGBTQAI+ friends and colleagues"?

I’m going to let you in on a secret, Natus. It’s the secret to empathy, a secret so arcane and obscure that to date, only Depeche Mode was able to unlock it’s mysteries:

(People are people.)

ruhk wrote:

I’m going to let you in on a secret, Natus. It’s the secret to empathy, a secret so arcane and obscure that to date, only Depeche Mode was able to unlock it’s secrets:

(People are people.)

No Sympathy for the Devil? I'm disappointed.

What can I say? In addition to empathy, I have taste.

Our modern right-wing devils must be a little dyslexic: they're men of stealth and waste.

Ruhk is out here being like “sometimes I say hi back when my uncle says hi” and we’re all like “COMMUNISM HAS FALLEN”

I’m going to let you in on a secret, Natus. It’s the secret to empathy, a secret so arcane and obscure that to date, only Depeche Mode was able to unlock it’s mysteries:

The like button...
I keep pressing it and it doesn't go higher than 1!

I’ve never had someone echo my own thoughts and feelings as closely as Ruhk does on this issue. I’m going to embolden the parts that hold the most truth for me.

ruhk wrote:

For like the 10 millionth time in this thread since this conversation started, it’s not about “reaching out” or “reconciling” or “deprogramming” or any other word that means doing something proactive, it’s about straight up not abandoning people and cutting all ties with them like several people were advocating. I don’t try to convince my MAGA family members, I occasionally get into arguments with them but I’m under no illusion that I’ll convince them of anything and I don’t really try to, and I really don’t even talk to them that much, maybe a couple times a month, a bit more near holidays.
…But what is it that I actually do? What is the great effort I’m making here? I leave lines of communication open if they want to talk about something, see how I’m doing, or just want to shoot the sh*t.

That’s literally it.

I haven’t cut ties with them because it literally costs me nothing to check in with them periodically and the far right communities they spend most of their time in don’t want them talking to someone like me. Me doing nothing but being normal and reachable is a beacon of contradiction to the 100’s of times a week that some rando stranger on telegram tells them that I’m an evil baby-eating ghoul that secretly stormed the Capitol building. I don’t expect them to turn around and vote for AOC in 2028, but at the very least it might make them think twice about the guy who calls me a pedophile and then tells them to check out the Volkish community but “don’t worry about the swastikas, it’s just an aesthetic.” JFC people, I didn’t think this would be a difficult concept when I made the initial post. I’ve put more effort into this conversation than I have the last several months of talking to my evil murderous nazi family members you all are trying to warn me about.

Seriously. This thread has been exhausting.

ruhk wrote:
Natus wrote:

Perhaps it's my legendary lack of imagination, but I just don't see how one can have compassion and empathy for MAGA/QAnon/KKK *and* the people they oppress. How does that work, exactly? "I'm compassionate towards neo-Confederates but also towards the Black community"? "I always extend a friendly ear towards evangelicals, but also towards my LGBTQAI+ friends and colleagues"?

I’m going to let you in on a secret, Natus. It’s the secret to empathy, a secret so arcane and obscure that to date, only Depeche Mode was able to unlock it’s mysteries:

(People are people.)

One of my personal mantras is “people people people”. I repeat this silently to myself before I sing or speak in front of folks, and also when I know I’m going into an adversarial situation such as arguing with my supervisors at work.

I learned this technique from the books by Dr Brene Brown. I have to admit that everything I know about compassion and empathy come from her as well. I haven’t watched her TedTalks so I can’t really recommend them, but her books are pure gold.

What can I say? People ARE people. Given my upbringing I could just as easily have been one of the racist stooges storming the Capitol calling for Pence’s head instead of the nerdy AnCom posting on gaming forums calling for billionaire’s heads that I am today. Systems and ideologies are responsible for the hate and bigotry and inequality, people are just the vehicles for it. In the words of the late Michael Brooks, be ruthless to systems, be kind to people.

ruhk wrote:

In the words of the late Michael Brooks, be ruthless to systems, be kind to people.

I hear you, but how?

DSGamer wrote:
ruhk wrote:

In the words of the late Michael Brooks, be ruthless to systems, be kind to people.

I hear you, but how?

I’m assuming you’re referring to the systems half since that’s the difficult part, and it’s just… do what you can. Get out in the streets, or donate money/time/resources to social justice causes or people in need, or get involved in mutual aid networks, or even just get to know you neighbors and build trust with them. Etcetera.
The quote itself is a bit hyperbolic because we’re up against cultural and political superstructures that are older and larger than any individual so you can’t expect to make a systemic impact in the short term but you can potentially make a difference in your community or even just in the lives of those around you, and small differences build over time. You just find what you can do, and then do what you can.

I meant systems, yeah. And I guess in my case I do what I can to fight the systems, but I feel like when fascism comes knocking it makes sense to make it socially unacceptable to embrace it as a system worth considering. That’s why I think social sanction has a place in combatting fascism and authoritarianism personally.

MOD
Some of y'all are having trouble with the being kind to people part as well, and that's okay. It's part of being human. What's not okay is making assumptions about what people in this thread have said (for example, turning ruhk's relatives into violent murderers). Please just check yourselves before hitting that "post" button, and make sure you're not getting into personal attack territory. Thanks!

DSGamer wrote:

Robear wrote:

There are people you have to deal with on a daily basis, who are very nice people, who have weird political views. Doesn’t mean they are emotionally cruel to you. It’s possible to be a very nice person who believes in odd stuff without trying to force it on others.

I see what you’re saying, but underlying Trumpism is the promise that one unprincipled man will exercise the power of the state to inflict pain on his supporters’ enemies.

I just want to point out that my original example was not of Trumpism or QAnon, but rather of a friend who is neither, but is instead still stuck in pre-Tea Party Republican stereotypes, like the Welfare Queen and libertarianism via Ayn Rand.

Can someone explain to me why my stupid QAnon believing family members are saying Biden has had two strokes and that's why he is apparently senile and stuttering (instead of it just being that he's 75+ years in age and has had a speech impediment his whole life)?

All I can find online is that he had two aneurisms in the mid-80s that he had fixed... which was when he was in his 40s, so that doesn't count.

Unless it's just some nonsense that Trump sputtered out that they've somehow convinced themselves is truth.

Vrikk wrote:

Can someone explain to me why my stupid QAnon believing family members are saying Biden has had two strokes and that's why he is apparently senile and stuttering (instead of it just being that he's 75+ years in age and has had a speech impediment his whole life)?

All I can find online is that he had two aneurisms in the mid-80s that he had fixed... which was when he was in his 40s, so that doesn't count.

Unless it's just some nonsense that Trump sputtered out that they've somehow convinced themselves is truth.

It's what they do. They spout sh*t and while you're busy refuting it, they spout more sh*t. The fountain of sh*t controls the narrative. It is a typical Gish Gallop.

Also, ever since the early 90’s, Republicans have adopted a tactic of just throwing sh*t at opponents to make something stick. Many people still believe the Clintons are murderers, Obama is a foreign Muslim, Kerry faked his war record, Gore is a scamming liar, and so forth. It’s actually been an effective tactic.

Paleocon wrote:
Vrikk wrote:

Can someone explain to me why my stupid QAnon believing family members are saying Biden has had two strokes and that's why he is apparently senile and stuttering (instead of it just being that he's 75+ years in age and has had a speech impediment his whole life)?

All I can find online is that he had two aneurisms in the mid-80s that he had fixed... which was when he was in his 40s, so that doesn't count.

Unless it's just some nonsense that Trump sputtered out that they've somehow convinced themselves is truth.

It's what they do. They spout sh*t and while you're busy refuting it, they spout more sh*t. The fountain of sh*t controls the narrative. It is a typical Gish Gallop.

^Exactly this. The news media has spent oceans of ink (and will spend oceans more) following the QAnons down all their rabbit holes while they're delving into the origin stories of every Trumpist (as we have seen in these very pages here). It's the blank banner followed by the numberless (QAnon?) crowds in Canto III of the Inferno...it leads nowhere and means nothing.

Vrikk wrote:

Can someone explain to me why my stupid QAnon believing family members are saying Biden has had two strokes and that's why he is apparently senile and stuttering (instead of it just being that he's 75+ years in age and has had a speech impediment his whole life)?

If they're QAnon believers, this is like one of the most mild things they could believe. QAnon is built on the lunacy that a secret cabal of satan-worshipping elites run the world and torture children to extract adrenochrome from them which the elites drink to stay young forever.

They take videos of Biden talking but edit out all the cogent bits so it’s just minutes of non sequiturs and fumbling for words, and then share them pretending it’s raw footage from speeches/interviews/whatever. It’s all very stupid and obvious but people believe it because they want to.

ruhk wrote:

They take videos of Biden talking but edit out all the cogent bits so it’s just minutes of non sequiturs and fumbling for words, and then share them pretending it’s raw footage from speeches/interviews/whatever. It’s all very stupid and obvious but people believe it because they want to.

That's the only thing I could find online, where someone was like "yeah, it came from an unsourced video on Facebook that was quickly derided as edited", so it's my fault that I probably thought it came from something a little more credible like an actual news station. Heck, I'd take Fox being the source instead of a boomer FB meme.

Fox? I’m sure Tucker has some info on Biden’s mental problems…

Yes, but Tucker outright saying that Biden has had two strokes in the past couple years could easily be found online, and easily fought in court as a lie.

Some rando with a YouTube account and an American flag profile picture is more likely the source, however.

I meant that propaganda is easy to find even on the biggest cable tv news network.

If I read it correctly, a recent analysis showed that 12 individuals were driving most of the far-Right propaganda on social networks. That rando likely picked it up from an organized effort, in other words... Even if the "organized" goal is to make money on suckers.

Robear wrote:

I meant that propaganda is easy to find even on the biggest cable tv news network.

If I read it correctly, a recent analysis showed that 12 individuals were driving most of the far-Right propaganda on social networks. That rando likely picked it up from an organized effort, in other words... Even if the "organized" goal is to make money on suckers.

I thought that it was 12 people are responsible for the majority of covid/vaccination disinformation.

Regardless: Social media is as plague that should be excised like a malignant tumor.

JC wrote:

Regardless: Social media is as plague that should be excised like a malignant tumor.

Bet you people said the same thing about mass publication newspapers, and printed books. We need to adjust our expectations to match the technology instead in my opinion.

We ought to adjust the technology to meet our expectations. There needs to be some actual consequences for allowing and even facilitating the unchecked spread of deliberate disinformation.

Since folks seem unable to get back on topic and not devolve into petty personal attacks that are no longer about impeachments after multiple requests from mods, this thread is done. Stay on topic or don't participate.