\m/(~_~)\m/ Bring the Metal! \m/(~_~)\m/

RawkGWJ wrote:

They should re-record Justice and give it a proper production.

The amount of cocaine it would take for Lars to be able to play Dyers Eve once more would kill him.

*Legion* wrote:

Ad for Load and ReLoad, I think Garion pretty much has it with the editor comment. There's one solid ~50 minute rock record buried across the ~150 minutes of those two releases, I think. The filler just kills actually listening to the albums for me. 2 Black Albums out of 5.

Chris did too, but in a different way.

They tried things and still released it, despite some of the worst songs being the long songs.

It's a shame when cool people get rich and powerful, and bring Lars along for the ride.

In my continued Metallica hole I gotta say that post-Black Album there's just something missing from almost all their music. The individual pieces aren't bad by themselves, but the whole thing fails to come together as a cohesive sound. It's almost like you can feel them struggling in the studio to bring the energy.

Lulu is an awful album, but the live sound of that is much more cohesive.

But even starting with Re/Load too often parts of songs feel underwhelming and lacking, while being surrounded by parts that work. Fuel is a good example. It's a bit hokey, but the opening vocal is good. When the music hits is okay, but is missing true oomph. I think that's a production thing. The first bridge at 55 seconds or so is the first really bad spot in the song. It should've been straight cut because you have James doing a decent vocal thing with the backing guitars kinda just wahhing away pointlessly. At 2:30 the vocal is forced/lame followed by an almost decently heavy riff that wants to be heavier than it is, but comes off as lazy. The leads over the riff are good, heading into a quality solo that trails off into boring repititious bridge that could've also been trimmed. This song is a hella good 3:30 song slightly drawn out to 4+ minutes.

The vocals on both of these albums are over produced with needless effects that take away from Hetfield's vocals. Some of the best parts are where there's no more layering of vocal tracks. That's super odd because normally layering vocals makes them sound significantly better and fuller. It's a production trick to make lesser singers sound better, usually. Here it has the opposite effect, in part because they're treating Hetfield like he's a pop singer or something. Good ideas, I guess, but they take away from the songs instead of making them more interesting.

The guitar sound on leads is generally amazing. Sometimes too amazing because it makes the rest of the guitars sound like they're from session musicians.

tldr I bet everything on this album sounds better live. And most songs could use trimming, which we've already covered.

I feel like the easy answer is they were a great metal band when they were young and an average rock band when they got older. But even that doesn't entirely hold up because when they go back to their more metal sound it's simply not as good. Playing each of their later albums there's generally the same lack of cohesive sound to everything. Is this what happens when you have too much time in the studio and not a ton of time road testing the songs? Is it almost entirely the vocals sounding completely separate from the music?

garion333 wrote:

tldr I bet everything on this album sounds better live. And most songs could use trimming, which we've already covered.

So unlike most of the guys in here, I didn't see a live concert until I was in maybe middle school, and that was Kansas opening for Yes with my family. I don't even remember the first metal show I went to, but I'm pretty sure it was for a video game music cover band. So while I get the appeal of the live show (I will always remember being arm-in-arm with the people next to me as we sang Nightfall together at a Blind Guardian concert), it's not the definitive experience to me like I've found it is to a lot of old-fashioned metal fans, particularly of thrash. And when you consider music production values throughout most of the 60's, 70's, and even into the 80's, it's pretty understandable why.

That said, I originally attributed my preference for Metallica's tracks on S&M to be due to the orchestra. Now, I'm tempted to go back and listen and compare, and see if it's more what you're saying. I think I've spoken to you about it before, but And Justice For All and Black Album in particular feel like there's something missing, like they're playing in an empty open-air field with their instruments at half-volume. There's too much emptiness (not silence, I suppose, but an emptiness) that, in terms of Justice, is attributed to the downplaying of the bass. The album does sound better once the bass is cranked up, but for me, there's still something missing.

It makes me wonder if a lot of it has to do with production values. James Hetfield sings very differently live than he does in recording, and in the end I tend to prefer his live singing better. But the live performance might also just be better balanced, and in terms of S&M, layers on enough instruments to hide the fact that Lars Ulrich can't come up with a half-decent percussive backing to save his life. And honestly, I think that's what really kills even the songs I like off of Load and ReLoad. Lars has absolutely no creativity as a drummer and doesn't have an ounce of percussionist blood in his body. He's basically a really loud metronome and has no capacity to consider what the song needs in that particular moment.

It's still just a part of it, you're probably right that most of the longer songs could be trimmed down and made better. But after Load and ReLoad I think Metallica just had no identity. Or perhaps it was even later than that? I recall being hyped for whatever they had up their sleeves next with Human, No Leaf Clover, and I Disappear, but none of those songs are the 7-8 minute pseudo-prog pieces that evidently became more of a trademark (a friend of mine in College described Death Magnetic as an album with a lot of good 4-5 minute songs stretched out to 7-10, which tracks with your opinion, Garion).

I dunno enough about the band's personal lives, but maybe James had to get off the hooch again and that did it. Then again, they also let go of Jason Newsted before St. Anger, right? So maybe it was a whole series of issues. I feel like you can probably trace it all the way back to them giving Dave Mustaine the boot, then Cliff dying, and it just being a series of cascading issues that never manifested all at once, but just developed over time.

But for part of it, I think the notion that the studio albums were mixed or produced poorly compared to the balancing of the live performance could have something to do with it. If I had my way, all of Metallica's discography would receive the S&M treatment. I don't think there's a single song they performed that wasn't improved by that (remember when Lars said "same time next year" at the end of that? Haaaa.... what a doofus). But it's not something I'd want out of Megadeth, because those songs already feel... complete.

I dunno, I'm rambling now. I think I get what you're saying, though.

For me it's simply about the business of Metallica becoming more important to Lars and the gang than what made them unique, and it's impacted every decision - artistic or otherwise - they've made since. Letting go of a competitive advantage to respond to environmental pressures (i.e. alternative, grunge in this case) usually gets companies killed or bought out. Metallica's still around, making gazillions.

I got nothing, I really enjoy Megadeth though (even their "crappier" albums I find enjoyable).

Overthinking, overanalyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, leaving opportunities behind.

garion333 wrote:

In my continued Metallica hole I gotta say that post-Black Album there's just something missing from almost all their music. The individual pieces aren't bad by themselves, but the whole thing fails to come together as a cohesive sound. It's almost like you can feel them struggling in the studio to bring the energy.

From everything I've learned in comic books, when you wield the kind of intergalactic power that creates the Black Album, you're going to be forever drained afterward.

WizardM0de wrote:

For me it's simply about the business of Metallica becoming more important to Lars and the gang than what made them unique, and it's impacted every decision - artistic or otherwise - they've made since. Letting go of a competitive advantage to respond to environmental pressures (i.e. alternative, grunge in this case) usually gets companies killed or bought out. Metallica's still around, making gazillions.

I got nothing, I really enjoy Megadeth though (even their "crappier" albums I find enjoyable).

Overthinking, overanalyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, leaving opportunities behind.

Yeah, that's why I keep talking about them being rich. It allows you to overthink everything leading to a metal band who lost its balls, but keeps trying to act like they have em. Being hungry definitely leads to better music, a lot of the time.

(Also, Maynard frickin cursed Tool with those lyrics. All they've done since is spin their own black circle.)

ccesarano wrote:

I think I've spoken to you about it before, but And Justice For All and Black Album in particular feel like there's something missing, like they're playing in an empty open-air field with their instruments at half-volume. There's too much emptiness (not silence, I suppose, but an emptiness) that, in terms of Justice, is attributed to the downplaying of the bass. The album does sound better once the bass is cranked up, but for me, there's still something missing.

I hear you with Justice, it's production is absolutely a low point in their career. You know, until St. Anger.

Black Album I don't get. I love the sound of that album. Dunno. I tend to like the way Ozzy's No More Tears sounds also.

Btw, I don't hate Lars' drumming half the time, but across 300 albums it's quite clear he's severely limited, which everyone knows. Makes everything sound the same.

garion333 wrote:

(Also, Maynard frickin cursed Tool with those lyrics. All they've done since is spin their own black circle.)

No doubt - it or Aenima's the only Tool I ever spin regularly anymore, that's for sure.

garion333 wrote:

Black Album I don't get. I love the sound of that album. Dunno. I tend to like the way Ozzy's No More Tears sounds also.

I love how The Black Album sounds - pretty sure I've blown several speakers on this album over my lifetime. Sad But True, Wherever I May Roam, Of Wolf and Man, Through the Never, My Friend of Misery...sheesh the guitars, the wall of punch in all these songs. Bob Rock was who Lars thought he was at the time.

If I'm testing out how something sounds and want loud/heavy, it's this album, Far Beyond Driven, and/or Rage Against the Machine's self-titled.

Probably not actually metal, and probably old news, but I thought this was a solid jam/arrangement so sharing here.

Favorite comment:

The people who disliked this were probably just disappointed it wasn't a 2-disc album lasting two and a half hours.

Should I go see Testament, Exodus, and Death Angel when they come to San Luis Obispo in October?

*Legion* wrote:

Should I go see Testament, Exodus, and Death Angel when they come to San Luis Obispo in October?

I saw they were touring together. Great bill of bands that I've never listened to, and I don't mean that sarcastically. However, I'm not sure I'm interested enough in thrash anymore to check out a bunch of bands I don't know. That's not true for some other subgenres.

Still, maybe I'll check them out a bit, just to be sure.

*Legion* wrote:

Should I go see Testament, Exodus, and Death Angel when they come to San Luis Obispo in October?

YES! I'd go just for Testament and watching Skolnick play live.

Testament alone is freakin' great! Seen them three or four times and would see them again indefinitely, as many times as I can. They just crush it live!

This scrolled across my Twitter feed today.

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/lRicGhf.png)

I had never heard this before, but... yeah...

Top YouTube comment went for the obvious but still appropriate response:

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/0FnYtcN.png)

Just in case we hadn't talked about Metallica enough lately.

That sounded like a solo for a completely different song.

Keep in mind I've never heard Bleed, or perhaps any Meshuggamunuh, before, so I have no clue what it's supposed to sound like.

You might be amused by comedian Bill Burr talking about going to a Meshuggah show:

I've seen Meshuggah live, but it was in 2002. "Bleed" was still a few years away.

*Legion* wrote:

This scrolled across my Twitter feed today.

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/lRicGhf.png)

I had never heard this before, but... yeah...

Top YouTube comment went for the obvious but still appropriate response:

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/0FnYtcN.png)

Just in case we hadn't talked about Metallica enough lately.

Whaaaaaat? Sounds like he went into it blind. Can't believe he didn't have something practiced.

Season of Mist's YouTube right now is streaming a replay of Gaerea's virtual concert from a virtual fest a few weeks ago. It's pretty great. I imagine it will be available to view on demand after the stream ends.

EDIT: Dang, the performance was only 25 minutes. Great stuff, but I was ready for a full set. Ah well. It is indeed up on the SoM YouTube as a normal video now.

garion333 wrote:

Whaaaaaat? Sounds like he went into it blind. Can't believe he didn't have something practiced.

I see no reason to assume that wasn't a rehearsed solo. Hammett has often talked about how he likes to always compose his solos like they're a mini-song, and this sounds like pretty much every other post-Justice Hammett solo. He's just nowhere near the level of a player like Thordendal, may as well just do his Kirk Hammett thing and not even try to hang with those guys!

I done been sayin' that Kirk mostly sucks. Lars mostly sucks, too. It is what it is.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

I done been sayin' that Kirk mostly sucks. Lars mostly sucks, too. It is what it is.

Thank you, that's a much more efficient way of saying what I was trying to say.

Those guys do what they do and not much else, which is fine.

Been a while since a new album dropped that knocked my socks off.

Mission Jupiter is a young prog metal group that's just getting started. First song in the above will give you an idea of what they're about, but my personal favorite is My Hypocrisy, which begins 11 mins in. The anger helps give another dynamic to the music, imho.

So I kept forgetting to check this new Maiden song out that YouTube recommended me. Finally did.

It's... a Maiden song.

I dunno what else to say about it. I feel like the last time they tried to write something that didn't sound "stock" was A Matter of Life and Death, and my impression is they got people to hate that album when they insisted on playing almost nothing but that album on the subsequent tour. Since then it feels like each album is just phoned in. I dunno.

Is there a band this hasn't happened for?

There are very few artists that have any interesting ideas left 17 albums in.

There's too many bands' "A" material that I still need to hear to spend my time listening to a legacy band's "D" material.

There are certainly exceptions, but I think new material from formerly famous bands get way more attention than the material deserves.

I want to find the next Iron Maiden, not listen to the corpse of the old one.

(Mind you, this isn't a criticism of bands like Maiden wanting to make new material. You guys do you. It just ought to be a footnote in the metal music consciousness, instead of gracing magazine covers and getting Grammy nominations like these legacy artists tend to get with new albums that aren't actually very good.)

Maybe Ozzy? Radiohead?

I wonder what the Beatles would have sounded like on their 17th album? Paul McCartney might be a good example of what they’d sound like. So… pretty good, but not great?

The Beatles at least had three amazing songwriters allowing for a breadth and depth that most other bands can't come close to achieving.

garion333 wrote:

The Beatles at least had three amazing songwriters allowing for a breadth and depth that most other bands can't come close to achieving.

You know. I have to agree with you on that. Three amazingly talented songwriters and a fourth songwriter who wrote a bunch of corny songs that millions of people love regardless.

ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE.

garion333 wrote:

The Beatles at least had three amazing songwriters allowing for a breadth and depth that most other bands can't come close to achieving.

24 hours later, I am the first person to like this post! This makes me feel less bad about how seldom my own posts get liked.

I was listening to Me First and the Gimme Gimmes recently, including their cover of All My Loving. Later that same day, the taco joint I was in had All My Loving come on the radio. It holds a special place in my heart, as it was the first song I ever learned to (sort of) play on guitar.

Fedaykin98 wrote:
garion333 wrote:

The Beatles at least had three amazing songwriters allowing for a breadth and depth that most other bands can't come close to achieving.

24 hours later, I am the first person to like this post! This makes me feel less bad about how seldom my own posts get liked.

I was listening to Me First and the Gimme Gimmes recently, including their cover of All My Loving. Later that same day, the taco joint I was in had All My Loving come on the radio. It holds a special place in my heart, as it was the first song I ever learned to (sort of) play on guitar.

Likes are a...

Vivid was the first CD I bought with my own money.