[Discussion] Police, White Nationalists, and the Rise of Fascism

Edit: never mind. Probably a better thread for this.

Natus wrote:

A few people on Twitter wiser than myself have been raising a democratic doomsday scenario and I'm not sure how it gets prevented:

+The GOP takes back Congress in 2022 no matter how well Biden governs.

+Trump or another MAGA runs in 2024.

+Even with all the voter suppression, the Dems win, but this time no GOP pol will certify the win.

If this happens, or especially if the Trumpist wins, then it's over. I really hope the Dems have their eyes on this very possible occurrence.

That's the point at which the left gets to storm the capitol. Start working on your costumes now, folks.

Jonman wrote:
Natus wrote:

A few people on Twitter wiser than myself have been raising a democratic doomsday scenario and I'm not sure how it gets prevented:

+The GOP takes back Congress in 2022 no matter how well Biden governs.

+Trump or another MAGA runs in 2024.

+Even with all the voter suppression, the Dems win, but this time no GOP pol will certify the win.

If this happens, or especially if the Trumpist wins, then it's over. I really hope the Dems have their eyes on this very possible occurrence.

That's the point at which the left gets to storm the capitol. Start working on your costumes now, folks.

Something tells me when it’s the left storming the capital, the military/police response will be far more deadly- a literal massacre. And the ensuing backlash will be much worse. Just the kind of scenario that wannabe authoritarians dream of.

gewy wrote:

Something tells me when it’s the left storming the capital, the military/police response will be far more deadly- a literal massacre. And the ensuing backlash will be much worse. Just the kind of scenario that wannabe authoritarians dream of.

I think that largely, the next group that storms the capitol gets that response, regardless of political affiliation. Lessons Have Been Learned from this January, and will be applied next time.

Yeah like cops are only respected when they are keepin' down the colored folk.

Ex-St. Louis Cop Wants Prosecutors Sanctioned for Revealing Racist Texts

Riverfront Times wrote:

A former St. Louis cop facing a criminal charge in the beating of a Black undercover detective has asked a judge to sanction federal prosecutors for disclosing text messages in which he uses the N-word freely, brags about sending people to the hospital and talks at length with other cops about prescription drug use.

Prosecutors from the U.S. Attorney's Office had previously released a number of texts sent and received by ex-police officer Dustin Boone and other cops accused of assaulting St. Louis police Det. Luther Hall in 2017 after mistaking him for a protester — but these messages had not been publicly disclosed in previous filings, and they expand beyond the Hall case.

Prosecutors say the texts and other information described in their recent filing show Boone was biased against Black people and that he had no problem violating his oath as a cop and the rights of those he encountered on the streets.

"There are r n——— running wild all across the city and even if/when we catch them..... they don't get in any trouble because there are plate lips running the CAO!" Boone wrote in a group text to other officers in July 2017, two months before the assault on Hall.

CAO is apparently a reference to the St. Louis Circuit Attorney's Office, which is under the supervision of the city's first Black circuit attorney, Kim Gardner.

Boone was one of five officers who were indicted in relation to the September 2017 attack on Hall. He was assigned to the Civil Disobedience Team, better known as the riot police, that cracked down on protesters following the acquittal of ex-officer Jason Stockley in the killing of Anthony Lamar Smith. Hall later told investigators that his fellow officers beat him "like Rodney King," even though he wasn't resisting and posed no threat.

Two officers pleaded guilty, but Boone, ex-officer Christopher Myers and current officer Steve Korte went to trial this spring. None were found guilty, but jurors deadlocked on a charge against Boone. They acquitted Myers on one charge in the beating, but couldn't decide whether he was guilty of smashing Hall's phone to destroy a recording of the assault.

Boone and Myers are set for another trial in June, and as prosecutors prepare for Round Two they filed a 33-page memo that outlines new evidence they plan to use this time. (See the second page of this story for the redacted memo.) Large sections of the filing have been blacked out, but the parts that haven't detail a trove of previously unreleased text messages attributed to Boone and others, including other cops.

Boone's attorney, Patrick Kilgore, argues in a court filing that the now-public information is "inflammatory, irrelevant, and highly prejudicial" and disclosing them violates a judge's order to file much of the information under seal. He notes that the St. Louis Post-Dispatch wrote about the texts and other information from the prosecutors' filing and claims it could taint the jury pool and keep Boone from receiving a fair trial. Additionally, Kilgore writes that the memo includes the names of Boone's relatives and police officers who haven't been charged. A spokeswoman for the St. Louis Metropolitan Police said the department would have no comment on any investigations or disciplinary action against any of the officers in Boone's texts.

The rest of the article details the texts Boone sent and his actions, but you can get a pretty good idea from the cover of the weekly newspaper:

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/2s5brgJ.png)

Disgusting. I'm constantly amazed by the hypocrisy on display with this BS. These people will argue that you this type of evidence is inadmissible in court, yet they have no problem what-so-f*cking-ever going into the past details of a person of color in an effort to make them look bad.

Exhibit #42353443564575462345345345345435 and counting...

BRUNSWICK, Ga. (AP) — Attorneys for a white father and son charged with chasing and killing Ahmaud Arbery asked a judge Wednesday to allow evidence of the slain Black man’s past problems to be presented when their clients stand trial for murder.

Jason Sheffield, one of Travis McMichael’s lawyers, told Superior Court Judge Timothy Walmsley on Wednesday that Arbery’s past arrests and other incidents include not only “theft crimes” but also show at pattern that Arbery, when confronted =by police or other authority figures, would become “angry and aggressive, physically and verbally.”

Defense attorneys for the McMichaels want the jury to know about several incidents from Arbery’s past, including that he was on probation at the time he was killed.

Arbery pleaded guilty to charges that he carried a gun onto a high school campus in 2013, a year after he graduated. Rodney Ellis, police chief for the Glynn County school system, testified at the hearing Wednesday that Arbery tried to evade officers on foot and stopped only when two of them pointed guns at him.

Recall them all to active duty and court martial them. They can enjoy their retirement in Leavenworth.

OG_slinger wrote:

Recall them all to active duty and court martial them. They can enjoy their retirement in Leavenworth.

I read that article too. Is this when I’m supposed to say, “Ok boomer.” Very disappointing.

RawkGWJ wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

Recall them all to active duty and court martial them. They can enjoy their retirement in Leavenworth.

I read that article too. Is this when I’m supposed to say, “Ok boomer.” Very disappointing.

Yup. More old, angry, impotent, white men....

The letter, mostly signed by ex-military leaders who have been out of uniform for decades, was organized by retired Army Maj. Gen. Joe Arbuckle, a Vietnam veteran who retired in 2000.

"The only positive sign," added Golby, "is that most of the retired officers who signed this letter have been out of the military for almost two decades, and that no recent retirees joined this shameful effort to use their rank and the military's reputation for such a gross and blatant partisan attack."

Mullen also pointed out that no retired four-stars signed it and only a handful of three-stars. "It's not very senior," he said. "In our world it's not very significant in terms of people."

JC wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

Recall them all to active duty and court martial them. They can enjoy their retirement in Leavenworth.

I read that article too. Is this when I’m supposed to say, “Ok boomer.” Very disappointing.

Yup. More old, angry, impotent, white men....

They're impotent up until the time Trump yells "coup!" If this is how retired top brass are openly expressing themselves, what do you think the rest of the armed forces are saying?

Reminds of this (NSFW):

Natus wrote:
JC wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:

Recall them all to active duty and court martial them. They can enjoy their retirement in Leavenworth.

I read that article too. Is this when I’m supposed to say, “Ok boomer.” Very disappointing.

Yup. More old, angry, impotent, white men....

They're impotent up until the time Trump yells "coup!" If this is how retired top brass are openly expressing themselves, what do you think the rest of the armed forces are saying?

From what I’ve seen and heard from my military buddies - including a number of conservatives - these losers are outliers. Not dismissing problems with white supremacists within the ranks, only saying I don’t see evidence of a military coup in the near future.

I think the danger lies more in stuff like what happened on January 6th, where fascist sympathizers in the ranks were able to gum up the works just enough to prevent an effective response from the military and law enforcement to a largely civilian insurrection, with Just enough plausible deniability that it could conceivably be bureaucratic incompetence rather than treason, as opposed to an open military coup.

We narrowly edged out Trump this last time, this is a tidal problem. The sludge has been building into a wave and we put up with 4 years of it and still came down to a very close call. Closer than I'd like. Now you have these morons licking their wounds and building strength with their news outlets letting them know how it's ok to be how they are and continuing to infuriate them about dumb stuff. The wave will make 2 to 4 more attempts in elections and we'll be dealing with this over the next decade. I can only think that in these elections we will not win all the battles nor the eventual war.

I am still very worried about my country.

Hobear wrote:

We narrowly edged out Trump this last time, this is a tidal problem. The sludge has been building into a wave and we put up with 4 years of it and still came down to a very close call. Closer than I'd like. Now you have these morons licking their wounds and building strength with their news outlets letting them know how it's ok to be how they are and continuing to infuriate them about dumb stuff. The wave will make 2 to 4 more attempts in elections and we'll be dealing with this over the next decade. I can only think that in these elections we will not win all the battles nor the eventual war.

I am still very worried about my country.

The MAGAS--whoever they are--only have to regain power once. Then it's over. They will never again trust to a democratic election, and as you said even that was too close. And the Trumpists have openly stated that they will use fair means and foul to retake power. Dems don't have that latitude.

Natus wrote:
Hobear wrote:

We narrowly edged out Trump this last time, this is a tidal problem. The sludge has been building into a wave and we put up with 4 years of it and still came down to a very close call. Closer than I'd like. Now you have these morons licking their wounds and building strength with their news outlets letting them know how it's ok to be how they are and continuing to infuriate them about dumb stuff. The wave will make 2 to 4 more attempts in elections and we'll be dealing with this over the next decade. I can only think that in these elections we will not win all the battles nor the eventual war.

I am still very worried about my country.

The MAGAS--whoever they are--only have to regain power once. Then it's over. They will never again trust to a democratic election, and as you said even that was too close. And the Trumpists have openly stated that they will use fair means and foul to retake power. Dems don't have that latitude.

Except... they already gained power once. And while the margins of the 2020 election were a lot closer than I'd like, and while disaster was averted on January 6th more narrowly than I'd like, the fact remains that they still lost power.

It's good to acknowledge the real danger of fascism, it's good to encourage vigilance, but it's not good to overstate your case to the point of despair. If they win another presidential election, it's "over"? What does "over" even mean? You're going to pack your bags and move to Mars? Swallow a bullet? Or are you going to keep fighting?

Win or lose, the fight is never "over."

I think the point is that if they win again they'll abandon even the slight pretense of following the rules they had left. In the immediate aftermath of the 6th, lots of Repubican politicians were appalled and actually called it the coup attempt it was. Then the rest of the Republican base weighed in and they were only upset it didn't work. It solidified for the few Republicans left that were still somehow on the fence that there literally was no limit to how far their base will follow him, and most of them chose to fall in line instead of take a stand.
Because there still haven't been actual consequences for anything Trump did or for of the political ringleaders behind the attack on the 6th, they will not wait until after they've lost power again to try something. They're just waiting for the next opportunity to present itself.

hbi2k wrote:

If they win another presidential election, it's "over"? What does "over" even mean?

I can't speak for anyone else, but as someone who feels much the same about our prognosis if the MAGA folks take charge again, when I say "that's it, it's over" I mean that they're going to cheat and lie with a tenacity that will be unshakeable and I fear that we will not be able to retake our government through the proper and legal methods.

We're flirting with becoming a fascist state that won't be undone without a full-blown revolution, and none of us wants to live through that.

hbi2k wrote:

If they win another presidential election, it's "over"? What does "over" even mean?

I think it means that we will still have “elections” but they’ll look a lot like Russia’s current “elections”.

My biggest fear is that they might not need to win another election. I’m worried that every election they lose will become a new opportunity to erode the trust of our current electoral system until they have enough believers to do a successful coup.

RawkGWJ wrote:
hbi2k wrote:

If they win another presidential election, it's "over"? What does "over" even mean?

I think it means that we will still have “elections” but they’ll look a lot like Russia’s current “elections”.

My biggest fear is that they might not need to win another election. I’m worried that every election they lose will become a new opportunity to erode the trust of our current electoral system until they have enough believers to do a successful coup.

to get all Godwins law about it. people kept looking for Trump's Reichstag Fire, but in reality Jan 6th was his Beer Hall Putsch

Farscry wrote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but as someone who feels much the same about our prognosis if the MAGA folks take charge again, when I say "that's it, it's over" I mean that they're going to cheat and lie with a tenacity that will be unshakeable

As opposed to what? How is that different from what they've been doing up until this point?

I fear that we will not be able to retake our government through the proper and legal methods.

It makes sense to fear that. Until that day comes, though, it doesn't change what we have to do right now, which is to continue to oppose them with every proper and legal method at our disposal.

hbi2k wrote:
Farscry wrote:

I can't speak for anyone else, but as someone who feels much the same about our prognosis if the MAGA folks take charge again, when I say "that's it, it's over" I mean that they're going to cheat and lie with a tenacity that will be unshakeable

As opposed to what? How is that different from what they've been doing up until this point?

I fear that we will not be able to retake our government through the proper and legal methods.

It makes sense to fear that. Until that day comes, though, it doesn't change what we have to do right now, which is to continue to oppose them with every proper and legal method at our disposal.

My point is I have no interest in sticking around for a fascist government to start and take place. There are plenty of other great places in the world I can take my family to. Yes I would leave if trumpism takes back it's place me and mine are probably gone.

hbi2k wrote:
Natus wrote:
Hobear wrote:

We narrowly edged out Trump this last time, this is a tidal problem. The sludge has been building into a wave and we put up with 4 years of it and still came down to a very close call. Closer than I'd like. Now you have these morons licking their wounds and building strength with their news outlets letting them know how it's ok to be how they are and continuing to infuriate them about dumb stuff. The wave will make 2 to 4 more attempts in elections and we'll be dealing with this over the next decade. I can only think that in these elections we will not win all the battles nor the eventual war.

I am still very worried about my country.

The MAGAS--whoever they are--only have to regain power once. Then it's over. They will never again trust to a democratic election, and as you said even that was too close. And the Trumpists have openly stated that they will use fair means and foul to retake power. Dems don't have that latitude.

Except... they already gained power once. And while the margins of the 2020 election were a lot closer than I'd like, and while disaster was averted on January 6th more narrowly than I'd like, the fact remains that they still lost power.

Barely. They are likely to re-take Congress in 2022, and that will be very bad.

hbi2k wrote:

It's good to acknowledge the real danger of fascism, it's good to encourage vigilance, but it's not good to overstate your case to the point of despair. If they win another presidential election, it's "over"? What does "over" even mean? You're going to pack your bags and move to Mars? Swallow a bullet? Or are you going to keep fighting?

Win or lose, the fight is never "over."

I mean democracy in this country is over. 1/6 was tomfoolery, but mass executions were intended. It will be Operation Condor all over again with a very willing and heavily armed police force and army. Even now, while out of power, the GQP is trying to push their provocations as far as they can. They are not frightened or cowed. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Why would the police and military suddenly flip for Hypothetical Future Fascist Figurehead in a universal and organized way that didn't materialize for Trump?

Putting the word "will" in front of your pet dystopian scenario doesn't actually make it any more likely, let alone a certainty.

Better to put our creative energies toward solving the problems in front of us than indulging in despair porn.

Natus wrote:

Barely. They are likely to re-take Congress in 2022, and that will be very bad.

As far as 2022 goes the Senate is Lean D, it's possible for us to even expand our majority slightly. The House is definitely Lean to Likely R, but there is the open question of how much the Republicans trading reliable college educated suburban voters for the low propensity voters Trump attracted sticks. There is also the possibility that D voters stay engaged, the R's are certainly making that easier with how cartoonishly overt their being trying to cheat. Gerrymandering is a concern, but the Census apportionment didn't go as well as they expected which limits their options. California and NY could offset their gains from that with their own gerrymanders, the California "independent" commission is stacked with D partisans' and NY is enough of a Machine state to just overrule their commission.

All we can really do is keep an eye on the generic congressional ballot. Even to D+3 probably results in a vanishingly slim R majority which will be ungovernably dysfunctional and let us take it back in 24. If by some miracle it's D+4 or more we have a chance of holding it. Either way it will be a knife fight.

hbi2k wrote:

Why would the police and military suddenly flip for Hypothetical Future Fascist Figurehead in a universal and organized way that didn't materialize for Trump?

Putting the word "will" in front of your pet dystopian scenario doesn't actually make it any more likely, let alone a certainty.

Better to put our creative energies toward solving the problems in front of us then indulging in despair porn.

This isn't despair porn at all, and it's odd you're (mis)reading it that way. If the GQP re-takes Congress (both houses), it's very likely that we have a Constitutional crisis during the next election. As for the police, their behavior *nationally* during the George Floyd protest and their involvement in 1/6 was alarming and not a lot has changed in the meantime. The insurrectionists came very close to killing half of Congress and the VP with almost zero ramifications.

I'm not saying don't fight, but I am saying let's not forget how close we are to a coup or to a Constitutional crisis.

hbi2k wrote:

Why would the police and military suddenly flip for Hypothetical Future Fascist Figurehead in a universal and organized way that didn't materialize for Trump?

Because Trump was obvious, incompetent and not charismatic to anyone outside his hardcore base. The next one will likely be smarter and more subtle, gradually eroding any checks to his authority. It won't be sudden, but now that everyone on the Right is primed for anti-democracy and could care less about any type of policy goals, they'll get started on their task right away, as soon as they're voted into office. They'll have a full term to finish the job with the support of their entire party from the top all the way down.

It won't be a South American junta situation though with political assassinations. More like Hungary, Russia or Turkey. Protesters will be beaten into submission and rival politicians will just find themselves without a voice or pathway to reclaim power.

gewy wrote:
hbi2k wrote:

Why would the police and military suddenly flip for Hypothetical Future Fascist Figurehead in a universal and organized way that didn't materialize for Trump?

Because Trump was obvious, incompetent and not charismatic to anyone outside his hardcore base. The next one will likely be smarter and more subtle, gradually eroding any checks to his authority. It won't be sudden, but now that everyone on the Right is primed for anti-democracy and could care less about any type of policy goals, they'll get started on their task right away, as soon as they're voted into office. They'll have a full term to finish the job with the support of their entire party from the top all the way down.

It won't be a South American junta situation though with political assassinations. More like Hungary, Russia or Turkey. Protesters will be beaten into submission and rival politicians will just find themselves without a voice or pathway to reclaim power.

That’s not what the base wants, Trump’s stupidity and brash arrogance was a feature not a bug. A smart Trump wouldn’t have attracted Trump’s cult. Look at Brazil and the Philippines, same mold.