Japanese Language Learners Unite!

I finished Human Japanese beginner a few days ago. Started back in September I think. I have intermediate as well, but I am thinking it might be time to also add in some kanji practice from a different source. Anyway, nice milestone for me. This is the second attempt I’ve made at learning Japanese and I feel like I’ve gotten farther this time.

Human Japanese Intermediate actually starts introducing kanji fairly early in the process, and adds four or five of them per chapter.

IIE

ノーサンキュー!

bobbywatson wrote:

Human Japanese Intermediate actually starts introducing kanji fairly early in the process, and adds four or five of them per chapter.

That was mentioned at the end of Beginner. Do you think that’s enough until you finish Intermediate?

steinkrug wrote:
bobbywatson wrote:

Human Japanese Intermediate actually starts introducing kanji fairly early in the process, and adds four or five of them per chapter.

That was mentioned at the end of Beginner. Do you think that’s enough until you finish Intermediate?

What's in HJI is barely an introduction to kanji. It only goes through the more common ones, and I wish it had gone all in on kanji in the example sentences right from the get go and add furigana for the kanji that haven't been studied yet (or at least given me the option).

The kanji you learn in HJI is not enough to do anything, but it's a nice and gentle introduction to something that is incredibly hard.

オッケー エブリバディ、レッツ リスニング!

fenomas wrote:

オッケー エブリバディ、レッツ リスニング!

Ha! It took me a moment to parse this because I was expecting Japanese words too.

Kind of cool to hear that the creator, performer, and trademark owner of Nyango Star is the same person, rather than a big corp. I do feel for the mayor in the story though. I can't imagine the worry these small rural communities have with the declining population. A couple of years ago I took a road-trip from Maryland to California. There are so many ghost-towns and nearly ghost-towns scattered through the rural parts of the USA too. My wife, who grew up in the Tokyo/Yokohama region, was a little creeped out by the emptiness!

fenomas wrote:

A twitter thread about the many translations of "許さない".

This was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

Coldstream wrote:

Ha! It took me a moment to parse this because I was expecting Japanese words too.

Yeah, s'why I always tell people planning to visit Japan to try learning the katakana, not hiragana or kanji. That way when you read something you have a chance at understanding it!

I also think it's good for people learning Japanese to practice speaking English in katakana, as a way of getting comfortable with the accent and the sounds you need to make. ハロー、アイアム ベリベリーグッド アット スピーキング ジャパニーズ、サンキューベリマッチ and all that.

I think I'm going to start learning again. So basically back at zero from a little bit of learning in college back in the day.

Reason?

<.<
>.>

*whispers* I want to watch more Hololive streams without waiting for translation vids lol

I like it!

My attention has been dragged on over to this thread. I got in with some folks learning Japanese on Discord and decided last fall to start trying to learn myself. My ultimate goal is to be able to move to Japan, but I don't see that happening for maybe ten years. Then again, I'm always pessimistic and can't imagine being good enough at the language to make the jump over any earlier.

Like some others, I first found Tofugu and began with that. I'm also using an app called Write it! Japanese, paying the small, insignificant cost to do proper reviews and not just the tests. I've basically got all the hiragana down in terms of reading and am working on katakana, though in terms of writing I'm starting to become a jumbled mess with hiragana. I was able to write all of them, but now that I've been more intently working on katakana it's been a jumble. Still, I use the Tofugu Kana Quiz every day to at least keep my reading comprehension up.

I was also playing Yakuza: Like a Dragon while learning hiragana, which made for some nice practice, particularly when you read a sign that says かつどん and think "Ah, I know what that is!"

I'm taking WaniKani a bit slower than they clearly designed it, but that's really becoming a jumble. Radical to Kanji is one thing, and they state that they're going to teach the most common readings, but then jumping into vocabulary it feels like all the readings are different. I feel like the vocabulary reading for symbols like 上 and 下 are replacing the kanji readings. It's very rough.

I don't know when, but after I've learned a decent amount of vocabulary I'm thinking to hop on Duolingo to assist with learning grammar and common sentences.

Right now it's one of the few things I feel like I have going for me, and feels like I'm making steady progress in. I like the WaniKani method and concept of recall, but dang if a bunch of their mnemonics don't really help me.

As far as teaching English over here, most people come without a lick of Japanese.

Yeah, the only hard requirements for living in Japan are having a visa (from a spouse or an employer), and some money for up-front expenses. Renting an apartment without help you would be a challenge, but but I assume there are still gaijin houses around (basically pay-by-the-month dorms that aren't picky about tenants).

That's all modulo covid of course. Vaccinations are barely even on the horizon, so definitely no rush.

As for learning, since reading this thread and trying out WaniKani I've been thinking a lot about this, but I really suspect that kanji drills are the slowest way to get better at Japanese. If you absolutely need to be able to write kanji (like, with a pencil) then doing individual drills is probably best, but writing is (1) way harder to learn than reading and (2) largely useless nowadays. Hell, even the JLPT doesn't test writing, does it?

Past some minimal baseline (like 20-50 kanji?), I think most learners would advance way faster by reading and listening to in-context vocab, rather than trying to memorize individual kanji one by one.

The primary reason I'm learning to write hiragana and katakana is that it actually helped me to remember those symbols more easily. It sort of embedded them more deeply in my brain. I haven't tried to learn to write kanji, though, in part because that feels like it would slow things down and be a bit too much. So in that regard I'm learning readings in order to develop vocabulary.

One thing I understand about WaniKani is that, by teaching what seems to be multiple readings, they're also teaching you some basic grammatical lessons, such as words ending in a う or る or similar sounds being verbs (probably not universal but a general rule for the time being).

Again, I'm currently in no real rush, so am comfortable taking my time to develop a firm foundation. I fortunately have some resources where I can practice conversational as well, once I'm at that point. Ultimately, though, I know immersion is the best way to learn, and the best way to be immersed is to be in the culture itself.

fenomas wrote:

Hell, even the JLPT doesn't test writing, does it?

I took it around 6 years ago so my info is out of date, but there was no writing component to the JLPT. Everything was multiple choice.

ccesarano wrote:

Again, I'm currently in no real rush, so am comfortable

You could've ended there.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

As far as teaching English over here, most people come without a lick of Japanese.

Get your ass in gear, cces.

Mr GT Chris wrote:

As far as teaching English over here, most people come without a lick of Japanese.

My wife has fairly strong feelings on this, being a language educator. Just because you can speak a language doesn't mean you can teach it, and she feels like a lot of English-speakers come to Japan to "teach English" when in fact they're primarily there to date Japanese girls and be a tourist. The upshot is that Japanese people who want to learn English end up paying for a pretty substandard teaching experience. It's also difficult to explain concepts of English to someone when you don't speak their language.

I'd encourage anyone planning to go to Japan as a teacher to ensure that they at least have a decent grounding in how to teach, and preferably how to teach languages. Personally, I think the adult-level conversational English practice is fine, but I couldn't imagine trying to learn Japanese from someone in the USA who spoke only a few words of English, and I would imagine the converse would be just as bad.

To be clear, this is absolutely not a shot at people who want to go to Japan to teach, and 100% not directed at anyone here. I just think it would really be better for everyone involved if there was a good grounding in teaching before taking a teaching job.

Coldstream wrote:

The upshot is that Japanese people who want to learn English end up paying for a pretty substandard teaching experience. It's also difficult to explain concepts of English to someone when you don't speak their language.

Um, I don't think the job is what you're envisioning

A typical private-sector English teacher in Japan is teaching people with 800+ hours of previous classroom study. They've already had a substandard teaching experience! What they generally need and want is structured communication with a native speaker who'll listen and correct their mistakes. "Explaining concepts of English" isn't typically part of the gig (if it's that kind of school then a JP teacher would be doing that part).

As such, I'm no expert but I've heard that adult students prefer a teacher who speaks little or no Japanese. I've never taught at a language school, but I've heard folks who do talk about hiding their Japanese ability to keep the students happy.

fenomas wrote:

Um, I don't think the job is what you're envisioning :D

Oh, I know the job, and did some English teaching along with my wife for JMSDF types. I knew tons of JET guys while I was there. Like I said, the adult-learners are fine, just as you say. But I've also seen Japanese nod and smile at the JET guys and then confide to my wife that they don't have a clue what they were saying.

It's just a personal opinion I'm expressing here, but I've seen so many people assume that because they speak English they can teach it to someone. I'm not sure that assumption is always based in reality.

Konnichiwa

garion333 wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

Again, I'm currently in no real rush, so am comfortable

You could've ended there.

This made me nostalgic for the days Wordsmythe edited my articles.

Coldstream wrote:

My wife has fairly strong feelings on this, being a language educator. Just because you can speak a language doesn't mean you can teach it, and she feels like a lot of English-speakers come to Japan to "teach English" when in fact they're primarily there to date Japanese girls and be a tourist. The upshot is that Japanese people who want to learn English end up paying for a pretty substandard teaching experience. It's also difficult to explain concepts of English to someone when you don't speak their language.

This is actually one of the reasons I'm not aiming (at the moment) to get over there through teaching. My brother didn't teach in Japan, but did teach in South Korea and largely found the other English teaching foreigners to be as you described. He encountered similar issues when he'd take the ferry to Fukuoka and experience some of the foreigners in Japan. For me, I love writing, but I honestly don't have a good grasp on my own language and do not have the confidence to teach it (though I imagine a curriculum is likely provided).

Oddly enough, I've recently been observing how some English media has been translated into Japanese, and how many changes need to be made to our own idioms and turns of phrase. Whole lines of dialogue lose their original meaning simply because there's no equivalent expression. So to that extent, maybe I'm already more qualified to teach it. Maybe I'll consider it or something. However...

fenomas wrote:

A typical private-sector English teacher in Japan is teaching people with 800+ hours of previous classroom study. They've already had a substandard teaching experience! What they generally need and want is structured communication with a native speaker who'll listen and correct their mistakes. "Explaining concepts of English" isn't typically part of the gig (if it's that kind of school then a JP teacher would be doing that part).

If you have any leads or connections to such a private-sector position, though, my brother could use it. He's considered going back to South Korea or to Japan but even before Covid hit it seemed as if all doors were closed to him. He's got actual teaching certificates, multiple masters degrees (one being in education), and is currently an adjunct history professor, so it's his actual profession as opposed to just a ticket over to Japan. So if you have any leads or anything, I'd love for you to send 'em my way so I can pass it onto him.

It’s gotten a lot better since I started (‘06). Companies are doing better in preparing and supporting teachers ongoing while the number of motivated long term teachers has increased. On the other hand, while I’m sure the cost is not insignificant to students, at the end of the day most teachers aren’t being paid an amount consummate to a professional. $10-20/hr is pretty typical.

Coldstream wrote:

Oh, I know the job, and did some English teaching along with my wife for JMSDF types. I knew tons of JET guys while I was there. Like I said, the adult-learners are fine, just as you say. But I've also seen Japanese nod and smile at the JET guys and then confide to my wife that they don't have a clue what they were saying.

JETs aren't language teachers per se; they're assistants who are paired with a credentialed teacher. Again, explaining language concepts is very much not part of the gig.

I mean, obviously there are jobs where teaching experience makes a difference. But as a general rule it should be safe to assume that the language school knows which jobs they are. If the school doesn't ask for teaching experience or Japanese ability, they probably know what they're doing.

ccesarano wrote:

If you have any leads or connections to such a private-sector position, though, my brother could use it. He's considered going back to South Korea or to Japan but even before Covid hit it seemed as if all doors were closed to him. He's got actual teaching certificates, multiple masters degrees (one being in education),

Sorry, no idea, but it sounds like your brother would be better suited to something like a university job? I'm no expert but he sounds overqualified for standard conversation school jobs.

Baron Of Hell wrote:

Konnichiwa

Ohio!

Unfortunately most universities are replacing their full time teachers with teachers outsourced from dispatch companies. So there’s a lot of competition.

Japanese riddle for the advanced speakers, from a TV show last night:

Fill in all three blanks with the same kanji to form a meaningful sentence:

日_が_ちに机を_した。

Spoiler:

日直が直ちに机を直した。
にっちょくがただちにつくえをなおした。

Had to use a dictionary though!