Marvel Media (Spoiler Thread)

MannishBoy wrote:

Walker right now seems to be in a Punisher-esque state mentally. Served honorably in the military. Lost somebody important to him. Went for the brutal revenge. Now feels betrayed by the institutions he trusted.

Not a 100% the same tune, but in the same musical genre.

That's a great point. And while most us KNOW we shouldn't root for Frank, it is really easy to want to.

So Sharon calls the French criminal guy to supply the Flag Smashers with some high tech weapons to kill Sam. So unless Sharon has completely turned heel the high tech weapons are rigged/fake?

TheGameguru wrote:

So Sharon calls the French criminal guy to supply the Flag Smashers with some high tech weapons to kill Sam. So unless Sharon has completely turned heel the high tech weapons are rigged/fake?

That scene of Sharon was so random, and easily could have been replaced with a screen that just had the text "MAYBE SHARON BAD". It felt like it'd just been inserted for the hell of it, and, being it was her only appearance in the episode, felt really forced. That's kind of how this show feels--all sorts of really great moments, fascinating characters, cool action, but there's just enough where you can tell they had to stitch it together from what they had and doesn't feel completely coherent.

One thing that did drive me nuts was the “trial” of John. It seem to be presided over by a politician rather than the commanding officer and it also didn’t appear to be in senate chambers or house chambers but in a conference room somewhere.
I know the show doesn’t have as big of a budget is the movie but it felt very poorly done.

I think it has less to do with budget and more to do with keeping the show's politics and legalities purposefully vague and abstracted.

While an MCU-themed episode of J.A.G. would no doubt be fascinating, that clearly wasn't something they had it in mind to tackle, so they skipped straight to the verdict and made the implied mechanics of getting there juuuuuust different enough from real life that you can kind of shrug and go, "I guess things work differently in the MCU than our world."

It's not like "Captain America" was an official Army title. Some kind of appointed thing, so whatever rules there are I don't think it has a real world analogy.

I don’t think it was meant to be a trial. It was a straight up judgement. “You killed an unarmed man in public with The Shield; you’re done.” Period, end of story.

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

I don’t think it was meant to be a trial. It was a straight up judgement. “You killed an unarmed man in public with The Shield; you’re done.” Period, end of story.

I also like "Please give us the Shield." Because that wouldn't have been question one. Storywise it kind of bothers me that Sam is just walking around with it.

lunchbox12682 wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

I don’t think it was meant to be a trial. It was a straight up judgement. “You killed an unarmed man in public with The Shield; you’re done.” Period, end of story.

I also like "Please give us the Shield." Because that wouldn't have been question one. Storywise it kind of bothers me that Sam is just walking around with it.

That's one of many things that just doesn't make that much sense; how do people not know Sam has the shield? Just feels like a weird editing mistake, kind of like how when Sam is first throwing the shield with Bucky, he's basically Steve Rogers, bouncing it perfectly. Then, later, there's a giant training montage, and he's awful at first. Shouldn't those have been reversed?

While I'm at it . . . why would the Wakandans take Zemo to The Raft, of all places? If they want him, I would presume it's to punish him themselves. Makes no sense. And Val . . . why was she in this episode? Had there been a later scene where Walker was contacted, it would have given some context to it all and pushed him to make the shield. I can buy him making his own shield, it fits the character, but dropping Val in felt like a "we need to market a cameo" move rather than paying off anything for the story.

I took that as warm up throws. Sam and Bucky are just tossing the ball around a bit in the yard. Then in the montage, Sam is throwing curves, 98MPH fastballs, and trying to work on his knuckle ball, using all the pitches, to stretch the analogy.

And of course doing acrobatic moves before/after throws/catches too.

TheGameguru wrote:

So Sharon calls the French criminal guy to supply the Flag Smashers with some high tech weapons to kill Sam. So unless Sharon has completely turned heel the high tech weapons are rigged/fake?

More I think on it, I wouldn't be surprised if Sharon is working for the Power Broker, who will likely be Valentina Allegra de Fontaine. I guess hearing that she was supposed to be introduced during Black Widow makes it less out of the blue for viewers to only meet her in the next to last episode if that wasn't the original plan.

Then the question is if Sharon is doing it legit, or is a double agent for some other group/entity.

They're going to have to do work in one last episode for me to like that answer. It doesn't feel like the groundwork is very firm for that answer.

Maybe the Power Broker doesn't matter now that there is no more known serum doses out there, or we don't have to learn who it is in this series? Maybe it's like the Mandalorian and we get some kind of unannounced spin off where either de Fontaine and John Walker go figure out the serum or Isaiah Bradley has some kind of role in the serum story going forward. I doubt it, but I didn't expect Boba Fett show, either.

On the other hand, Marvel's got shows booked already through this whole year and into the future, so it's pretty unlikely.

hbi2k wrote:

While an MCU-themed episode of J.A.G. would no doubt be fascinating

Isn't this what we're expecting from the She-Hulk show? A possibly funny Marvel lawyer-fu courtroom show?

Yeah - it was more like Cap was shifted to another group which is why it was not a straight up court martial. Also, a court martial would mean lawyers, evidence a jury - questions would be asked on the WHY is Captain America in certain places , etc, etc and they did not need that.

Also, it seemed at the end at the GRC meeting that of course it is the jerk faced US person that is pushing the BS (same guy that was backing the Cap stuff) - at least some of the other reps were not happy with the upcoming changes being pushed.

karmajay wrote:

Yeah - it was more like Cap was shifted to another group which is why it was not a straight up court martial. Also, a court martial would mean lawyers, evidence a jury - questions would be asked on the WHY is Captain America in certain places , etc, etc and they did not need that.

Also, it seemed at the end at the GRC meeting that of course it is the jerk faced US person that is pushing the BS (same guy that was backing the Cap stuff) - at least some of the other reps were not happy with the upcoming changes being pushed.

Yeah, no one will feel bad if that guy dies.
Ten bucks he was blipped anyway and that's why it's his mission.

lunchbox12682 wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

I don’t think it was meant to be a trial. It was a straight up judgement. “You killed an unarmed man in public with The Shield; you’re done.” Period, end of story.

I also like "Please give us the Shield." Because that wouldn't have been question one. Storywise it kind of bothers me that Sam is just walking around with it.

This irked me as well. In the same episode, they mention how valuable the shield is (in part due to the vibranium), but no one seems to be losing sleep that it hasn't been returned and is just MIA. I don't like to pick apart things, but that stood out to me as it just seemed like sloppy writing.

Garth wrote:
lunchbox12682 wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

I don’t think it was meant to be a trial. It was a straight up judgement. “You killed an unarmed man in public with The Shield; you’re done.” Period, end of story.

I also like "Please give us the Shield." Because that wouldn't have been question one. Storywise it kind of bothers me that Sam is just walking around with it.

This irked me as well. In the same episode, they mention how valuable the shield is (in part due to the vibranium), but no one seems to be losing sleep that it hasn't been returned and is just MIA. I don't like to pick apart things, but that stood out to me as it just seemed like sloppy writing.

Like who does Tores even work for at this point? Or is it just bureaucratic in fighting?

So, I have no idea if this four year old theory video is right, but it feels right with what we've seen in FatWS. Zemo did say he had a contact in Madrapoor and I think on first watch, we all assumed the bald lady was his contact but what if it was Sharon?

As to why Zemo was taken to the Raft?

Spoiler:

The running theory I've seen is that Marvel is working towards the Thunderbolts, so for that reason Disney needed Zemo on the Raft and not Wakanda.

Garth wrote:
lunchbox12682 wrote:
Chumpy_McChump wrote:

I don’t think it was meant to be a trial. It was a straight up judgement. “You killed an unarmed man in public with The Shield; you’re done.” Period, end of story.

I also like "Please give us the Shield." Because that wouldn't have been question one. Storywise it kind of bothers me that Sam is just walking around with it.

This irked me as well. In the same episode, they mention how valuable the shield is (in part due to the vibranium), but no one seems to be losing sleep that it hasn't been returned and is just MIA. I don't like to pick apart things, but that stood out to me as it just seemed like sloppy writing.

Well, even the Countess says it is a gray area and the US govt DOES NOT own it so it seems more story related vice sloppy writing.

That tracks because in the 1st ep where Sam gives it to the govt - they knew he had it, they did not go collect it and the guy says "You made the right decision". Seems like for some reason they could not just take it from him.

karmajay wrote:

Also, it seemed at the end at the GRC meeting that of course it is the jerk faced US person that is pushing the BS (same guy that was backing the Cap stuff) - at least some of the other reps were not happy with the upcoming changes being pushed.

I wasn't sure I fully followed what the Patch Act's whole deal was. My understanding is that Karli's bunch's whole beef is that they got put into camps to make room for the Unblipped, but the GRC was talking like they're only NOW going to put them into camps, and maybe they don't even have enough camps ready yet?

I don't know, I didn't feel like the show did a particularly good job of communicating the stakes, the reason why THIS is the moment when Karli's group needs to make one big final strike at the Powers What Be.

But then, that's kind of been that subplot's problem all along: no show, and not that much tell either. Not a lot of "there" there. I'm willing to go with it because the show gets so much else right when it comes to the social issues and the character dynamics, but the details of the plot continue to seem a little threadbare.

Edit: When it comes to ownership of the shield, when large bureaucratic governments and militaries decide they own something, they always seem to find some way of making it happen. I would tend to imagine that it has less to do with the legalities and more with the optics. Any public figure who tried to take the shield from Sam over his objections risks looking like an asshole in front of the voting public even if they manage to make a strong legal case that they're in the right.

Although does that still stand since Sam straight up stole it from Walker? Like, that was pure theft.

hbi2k wrote:

Edit: When it comes to ownership of the shield, when large bureaucratic governments and militaries decide they own something, they always seem to find some way of making it happen.

IMAGE(https://i0.wp.com/www.4ye.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/War-Machine.gif)

Chumpy_McChump wrote:

Although does that still stand since Sam straight up stole it from Walker? Like, that was pure theft.

We are likely thinking about this harder than the writers did, but it hinges upon the status of the shield when it was in the museum, whether Sam donated it or just loaned it for display. If the latter, than technically Sam is just reclaiming ownership.

hbi2k wrote:
karmajay wrote:

Also, it seemed at the end at the GRC meeting that of course it is the jerk faced US person that is pushing the BS (same guy that was backing the Cap stuff) - at least some of the other reps were not happy with the upcoming changes being pushed.

I wasn't sure I fully followed what the Patch Act's whole deal was. My understanding is that Karli's bunch's whole beef is that they got put into camps to make room for the Unblipped, but the GRC was talking like they're only NOW going to put them into camps, and maybe they don't even have enough camps ready yet?

I don't know, I didn't feel like the show did a particularly good job of communicating the stakes, the reason why THIS is the moment when Karli's group needs to make one big final strike at the Powers What Be.

But then, that's kind of been that subplot's problem all along: no show, and not that much tell either. Not a lot of "there" there. I'm willing to go with it because the show gets so much else right when it comes to the social issues and the character dynamics, but the details of the plot continue to seem a little threadbare.

What I've understood from what the show has stated/shown - When the blip occurred, plenty of people moved and were welcomed into other areas of the world because they were needed.

When people got unblipped, a lot of those people were pushed out of their jobs, homes etc to make room for the returning people. Those people now became homeless, jobless etc wherever they were living at the time. This and the fact the world is starting to move away from the "we as a world need to work together" style after the blip back to old countries only style is what Karli is pushing against and why they have a lot of support around the world.

This big meeting was the final vote to gather those people up and send them back the the countries they lived in before the blip.

As far as the shield, there has to be something, maybe Wakanda related. The original was destroyed in the Endgame battle. Its possible this new one was created directly in Wakanda and they specified some rules in regard to it. I'm sure we will probably find out more in the future.

Technically Sam still owns the shield, because it's not the original one. Stark claimed ownership of the original shield at the end of their Civil War & Cap gave it to him. Tony gave it back for Endgame, but Thanos broke it. When Cap came back from his alternate reality trip he had a new shield from that alternate timeline and he gave it to Sam. Unless Sam signed something transferring ownership all he really did when he gave it to the Smithsonian was lend it to them to put on display, much like any museum piece. It'd have been legal hell, but he probably could have made them give it back when he found out about Walker. They want Walker to give it back for the optics of it, not because they think they legally own it. Sam didn't steal the shield from Walker, he just stopped letting the government use it.

hbi2k wrote:
karmajay wrote:

Also, it seemed at the end at the GRC meeting that of course it is the jerk faced US person that is pushing the BS (same guy that was backing the Cap stuff) - at least some of the other reps were not happy with the upcoming changes being pushed.

I wasn't sure I fully followed what the Patch Act's whole deal was. My understanding is that Karli's bunch's whole beef is that they got put into camps to make room for the Unblipped, but the GRC was talking like they're only NOW going to put them into camps, and maybe they don't even have enough camps ready yet?

There are camps, but they're woefully under supplied. Most refugees are "illegally" in their new countries as the legal hoops for immigrating were largely ignored during the blip. Karli's beef is that the unblipped people are reimposing them (destroying the sense of a global community that gained traction during the blip), and they're retroactively applying them to people who moved during the blip, displacing them from places that have been their homes for years. The Patch Act will allow countries to forcibly round up and deport them to the camps.

Stengah wrote:

Technically Sam still owns the shield, because it's not the original one. Stark claimed ownership of the original shield at the end of their Civil War & Cap gave it to him. Tony gave it back for Endgame, but Thanos broke it. When Cap came back from his alternate reality trip he had a new shield from that alternate timeline and he gave it to Sam. Unless Sam signed something transferring ownership all he really did when he gave it to the Smithsonian was lend it to them to put on display, much like any museum piece. It'd have been legal hell, but he probably could have made them give it back when he found out about Walker. They want Walker to give it back for the optics of it, not because they think they legally own it. Sam didn't steal the shield from Walker, he just stopped letting the government use it.

The whole time travel aspect really makes it untested (and impossible) legal ground. The shield that Thanos destroyed was created by the US Government in WW2 and used by Captain America - but he was a solider so I don't know that his equipment becomes his (does it? If a solider is issued a hand gun for combat and then leaves the military does he keep that gun?) I would bet not so the shield was US government property.
Now if Steve goes to another timeline and take a shield - that in that timeline was owned by the government - would it be owned by the government in the timeline that Steve returned to?

I would imagine the government would have a pretty solid case that they owned the shield. In which case Steve can't give it to Sam.

farley3k wrote:

The shield that Thanos destroyed was created by the US Government in WW2 and used by Captain America

Technically it was created by Howard Stark and given to Steve Rogers. According to the MCU wiki, the vibranium used to create it was discovered by Stark Industries researchers in Africa; they cite a spinoff comic called Captain America: First Vengeance as their source for that.

So you could argue that it was Stark's private property which he gave to Rogers as a gift, thus making it Rogers' property. There might still be complications depending on whether Stark was acting as a military contractor at the time he created the shield and what the terms of that contract were.

Assuming the alternate-timeline shield was made the same way, the chain of ownership goes Howard Stark -> Steve Rogers -> Sam Wilson -> loaned to the Smithsonian -> the U.S. government just kind of jacks it -> John Walker -> Sam Wilson just kind of jacks it back.

All that's still ignoring the original source of the vibranium, though. Where in Africa was this Stark Industries research team? What country? Who owned the deed to the land it was taken from? Sounds like a certain robber baron was doing some robbing....

Vibranium is kind of Wakanda's thing

But as we've seen in Ultron and Black Panther, not all vibranium is in the hands of the Wakandans.

Re: ownership of the shield - https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenr...

I thought this was a pretty clear write up (though time travel does make it weirder for sure).