[Discussion] Police, White Nationalists, and the Rise of Fascism

JLS wrote:

All further exacerbated by the number of guns in the U.S. populace.

Elon Musk needs to invent the Star Trek phaser yesterday. A non-lethal tool as reliable as a firearm prevents accidental death and needless escalation of violence.

If it worked that well the police would use it constantly. In fact it would become their opening gambit--just stun everyone and that'll give them plenty of time to run everyone's ID and see who they can bust on a years-old outstanding warrant for possessing weed.

And if Musk or some other Silicon Valley STEMlord designed you could rest assured that there'd be some racism baked into it, like it would only discharge when it was pointed at someone with darker skin that the engineers that made and "tested" it.

JLS wrote:

All further exacerbated by the number of guns in the U.S. populace.

Elon Musk needs to invent the Star Trek phaser yesterday. A non-lethal tool as reliable as a firearm prevents accidental death and needless escalation of violence.

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What if instead of putting our faith in a man who inherited an apartheid emerald mine and somehow spun that into a cult of personality, we took a moment to address the actual issue?

The use of force in this and most police actions is unnecessary. Give the woman a phaser and it would have "accidentally" been set to kill. Police escalate violence by imposing their will. We teach our children to recognize police authority first and foremost. When that very notion is verbally challenged what happens? Raised voices and ultimately violence done to us by the police.

Why? This isn't a life or death situation. This is a kid with an air freshener. A weapon of violence OF ANY KIND isn't justifiable here by any metric. If that kid mouthed off (and rightfully so) does that justify even a taser (which hurts like hell)? Of course not. And that's setting aside their obvious lie.

The police are state sanctioned violence. They do not protect us, they exist to propagate their own authority. If they were meant to protect us, they would not have weapons or if they did have weapons there would be 1000 layers of safeguard there to prevent them being brought to bear (bare?) in anything other than a life or death situation.

Until we address that the people we've tasked to protect us from ourselves have no compunction to apply that fairly or well, no amount of billionaire tunnel building messiahs will save us.

Also yes, the guns need to go.

Anyway, if anyone donates here, please let me know.

JLS wrote:

The police officer yelled 'Taser!' before pulling her firearm and shooting Wright.

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oilypenguin wrote:

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I might have used a different word that starts with the letter "W."

I mustered all the civility I could. But... yes.

I agree with you, oily, and OG.

My point is: Non-lethal means are an improvement over police carrying firearms. I don't care who invents them.

The cops already have non-lethal means at their disposal. It's called leaving your damn gun in its holster and not killing people who aren't resisting.

The police don't need improvement. They need to go away.

Phishposer wrote:

The police don't need improvement. They need to go away.

I am increasingly convinced that there can be no significant improvement in outcomes until we completely rethink policing and start from a revolutionarily different model from the one we are currently using. There are numerous examples around the civilized world that work exponentially better than ours, but through nothing more than racism and pigheadedness, we simply assert that our way is "best".

American policing is as broken and morally bankrupt as American health care.

Paleocon wrote:
Phishposer wrote:

The police don't need improvement. They need to go away.

I am increasingly convinced that there can be no significant improvement in outcomes until we completely rethink policing and start from a revolutionarily different model from the one we are currently using. There are numerous examples around the civilized world that work exponentially better than ours, but through nothing more than racism and pigheadedness, we simply assert that our way is "best".

American policing is as broken and morally bankrupt as American health care.

To be clear, what is happening now is precisely the outcome desired by many Americans: the brutalization, intimidation, and murder of black people and other minorities. For defenders of the status quo, the totally preventable deaths of black men aren't a bug in the system but a feature. "Accidents" in this context aren't accidents at all.

“I Felt Hate More Than Anything”: How an Active Duty Airman Tried to Start a Civil War

Propublica wrote:

It was 2:20 p.m. on June 6, 2020, and Steven Carrillo, a 32-year-old Air Force sergeant who belonged to the anti-government Boogaloo Bois movement, was on the run in the tiny mountain town of Ben Lomond, California.

With deputy sheriffs closing in, Carrillo texted his brother, Evan, asking him to tell his children he loved them and instructing him to give $50,000 to his fiancée. “I love you bro,” Carrillo signed off. Thinking the text message was a suicide note from a brother with a history of mental health troubles, Evan Carrillo quickly texted back: “Think about the ones you love.”

In fact, Steven Carrillo had a different objective, a goal he had written about on Facebook, discussed with other Boogaloo Bois and even scrawled out in his own blood as he hid from police that day. He wanted to incite a second Civil War in the United States by killing police officers he viewed as enforcers of a corrupt and tyrannical political order — officers he described as “domestic enemies” of the Constitution he professed to revere.

Now, as he texted with his brother and watched deputies assemble so close to him that he could hear their conversations, Carrillo sent an urgent appeal to his fellow Boogaloo Bois. “Kit up and get here,” he wrote in a WhatsApp message that prosecutors say he sent to members of a heavily armed Boogaloo militia faction he had recently joined. The police, he texted, were after him.

“Take them out when theyre coming in,” the text read, according to court documents.

Minutes later, prosecutors allege, Carrillo ambushed three deputy sheriffs, opening fire with a silenced automatic rifle and hurling a homemade pipe bomb from a concealed position on a steep embankment some 40 feet from the deputies. One deputy was shot dead, and a second was badly wounded by bomb shrapnel to his face and neck. When two California Highway Patrol officers arrived, Carrillo opened fire on them, too, police say, wounding one.

“The police are the guard dogs, ready to attack whenever the owner says, ‘Hey, sic ’em boy,’” Carrillo said in an interview, the first time he has spoken publicly since he was charged with murdering both the deputy sheriff in Ben Lomond and, a week earlier, a federal protective security officer at the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse in Oakland.

When Carrillo was finally subdued on June 6, cellphone footage captured him shouting at deputies as they led him away, “This is what I came to fight — I’m sick of these goddamn police.”

For Carrillo, that final frenzied expression of rage marked the culmination of a long slide into extremism, a journey that had begun a decade earlier with his embrace of the tea party movement, libertarianism and Second Amendment gun rights, before evolving into an ever-deepening involvement with paramilitary elements of the Boogaloo Bois. The militant group is known for the distinctive Hawaiian shirts its members wear at protests, often while brandishing AR-15s and agitating for the “Boog” — the group’s shorthand for civil war.

Carrillo’s arrest was also an omen of something larger and even more ominous: the rise of a violent insurrection movement across America led by increasingly extreme and aggressive militias that seek out opportunities to confront and even attack the government. Examples of this broader insurrection abound, from October’s foiled plot to abduct Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer to the leading role militia groups such as the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers played in the violent takeover of the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6.

While militias have long been active in the United States, groups tracking extremist violence have reported notable increases in paramilitary activity over the past year, and the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security and the director of national intelligence have all issued stark warnings in recent months about an elevated threat of violence from domestic extremist groups.

ProPublica, FRONTLINE and Berkeley Journalism’s Investigative Reporting Program also uncovered new evidence that some military service members have embraced extremist ideology. The news organizations identified 15 active-duty members of the Air Force who, like Carrillo, openly promoted Boogaloo memes and messages on Facebook. On Friday, the Pentagon announced new measures to combat extremism inside the military. The Biden administration, meanwhile, is increasing funding for preventing attacks by militias, white supremacists and other anti-government groups, The New York Times reported this month.

“These groups want to be instigators, the frontline of the civil war that is going to happen in this country,” said John Bennett, who was the special agent in charge of the FBI’s San Francisco Division at the time of Carrillo’s arrest.

“The scary thing,” he added, “is a lot of people in these groups that we’re seeing now are your neighbors.”

An examination of Carrillo’s life and his path to radicalization, based on extensive interviews with him, his family, his friends and his fiancée, along with a review of hundreds of pages of court records, previously undisclosed text messages and internal militia documents, revealed startling new details about the threat posed by the Boogaloo Bois.

Experts in extremist militia groups have long regarded the Boogaloo Bois as having no real hierarchy or leadership structure. But in piecing together Carrillo’s activities and militia contacts, law enforcement officials were stunned to discover the extent of coordination, planning and communications within the group.

I am going to say something really unpopular here, but here goes.

I honestly think that Officer Kim Potter sincerely thought she was tasing Daunte Wright when she shot him.

It is remarkably easy to do under stress and I am, frankly, surprised it doesn't happen a lot more often. The manual of arms between the sidearm and the taser are amazingly similar and are all too often accessible in the same way. In the heat of the moment, it is very possible to grab one when you think are grabbing the other. In many ways, it is an administrative decision in the selection of equipment that is almost designed for failure. It is literally like giving a stage actor a real knife and a stage knife and putting them both on the actor's belt... and then putting them in a random play where they are either acting or actually defending themselves from a psychopath.

I heard that the outstanding warrant was for $340 in traffic tickets.

$340.

And for that, this engagement turned deadly. This is the sort of thing that should have been handled administratively. The decision to use force shouldn't have even been on the table.

Paleocon wrote:

I am going to say something really unpopular here, but here goes.

I honestly think that Officer Kim Potter sincerely thought she was tasing Daunte Wright when she shot him.

It isn't unpopular to me. I agree. I don't think she meant to shoot him.

I heard that the outstanding warrant was for $340 in traffic tickets.

$340.

And for that, this engagement turned deadly. This is the sort of thing that should have been handled administratively. The decision to use force shouldn't have even been on the table.

I don't disagree with this either. There is no reason she should be doing that. It could be handled administratively or through a lot of other means.

Reminds me of the phrase "when your hammer every problem looks like a nail" We love police in this country we think they are to be used for everything/anything. That should change but to change it will require money for these other methods and, to be blunt, whites would rather have a few dead blacks than pay more in taxes.

Paleocon wrote:

I heard that the outstanding warrant was for $340 in traffic tickets.

$340.

It was a $50 fine for a 2019 conviction of possession of a small amount of weed and a $100 fine for a conviction of disorderly conduct (offensive/abusive/noisy/obscene). Various court fees (because we can't have taxpayers pay for our court system apparently) turned that $150 fine into $346.

He had an active warrant for his arrest because he failed to show at a virtual hearing for two additional misdemeanor charges from last year: possessing a gun without a permit and fleeing the police by means other than a motor vehicle.

Also the officer and the police chief resigned this afternoon.

I feel a bit bad they lost their careers but if pharmacist dispensed the wrong drug and a patient died I think the pharmacist resigning would be reasonable. Same for basically any career where your actions can result in someone's death.

farley3k wrote:

I feel a bit bad they lost their careers but if pharmacist dispensed the wrong drug and a patient died I think the pharmacist resigning would be reasonable. Same for basically any career where your actions can result in someone's death.

Don't be. Potter helped two other officers duck responsibility for killing someone in 2019.

She'll collect her pension. The police union will pay her legal fees. A couple white people on the jury will let her off if it ever goes to trial. And she'll be hired in some town 15 minutes away.

WaPo wrote:

[Potter] has been involved in one fatal police shooting in the past.

In 2019, Potter was among the first to arrive at a home in the Minneapolis suburb after two officers fatally shot a mentally ill man six times after he allegedly lunged at them with a knife, according to a report released by the Hennepin County Attorney’s Office last year.

Once paramedics arrived, Potter ordered both of the officers to leave the house, sit in separate squad cars and deactivate their body cameras. As the union president at the time, she escorted one of the officers from the scene back to the police station and was later present when BCA investigators interviewed both officers, the report states.

The officers were not charged in the fatal shooting after prosecutors found they acted with “reasonable fear” after first firing their Tasers.

Paleocon wrote:

I am going to say something really unpopular here, but here goes.

I honestly think that Officer Kim Potter sincerely thought she was tasing Daunte Wright when she shot him.

Not unpopular, but missing the wood for the trees.

The problem is that we're putting cops on the street in such a way that one single, understandable, and entirely predictable mistake kills an innocent person.

If I did that in my job, a federal-government-regulated industry, I'd go to jail for it. I don't mean making that mistake, I mean putting something out into the world that is one predictably probable failure away from killing innocent people.

If I give her the benefit of the doubt that she was reaching for her taser and not her firearm, then she is dangerously unfit, should be fired, and should face manslaughter charges.

Just like if most of us accidentally killed someone at work.

Resignation letter wrote:

Dear Mayor Elliott, Mr. Edwards and Chief Gannon:

I am tendering my resignation from the Brooklyn Center Police Department effective immediately. I have loved every minute of being a police officer and serving this community to the best of my ability, but I believe it is in the best interest of the community, the department, and my fellow officers if I resign immediately.

Sincerely,

Officer Kim Potter

Medical examiner ruled it a homicide.

This woman shouldn't have been allowed to resign. She should have been fired with cause the same day and arrested pending an investigation based on the ME's ruling.

I have loved every minute of being a police officer

Just let it wash over you.

I have loved every minute of being a police officer

Like a wave. A calming wave.

I have loved every minute of being a police officer

You murdered a man at a traffic stop and this is the first thing you say?

Jonman wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I am going to say something really unpopular here, but here goes.

I honestly think that Officer Kim Potter sincerely thought she was tasing Daunte Wright when she shot him.

Not unpopular, but missing the wood for the trees.

The problem is that we're putting cops on the street in such a way that one single, understandable, and entirely predictable mistake kills an innocent person.

If I did that in my job, a federal-government-regulated industry, I'd go to jail for it. I don't mean making that mistake, I mean putting something out into the world that is one predictably probable failure away from killing innocent people.

No disagreement on this. My point is that the entire industry of law enforcement appears to be designed to fail. And though we can spin wheels all day about definitions of "good" and "bad" cops, the entire exercise misses the fact that it is the system itself that is broken and demands broken outcomes.

It looks like with all the sh*t going on, we completely missed the fact that the Boston Police Union has been protecting a pedophile president for decades.

The Boston Globe

For years, the Boston Police kept a secret: the union president was an alleged child molester
Despite 1995 evidence, Patrick Rose kept his badge, worked on child sexual assault cases, and ascended to power in the police union. He went on to allegedly molest five other children.

Paleocon wrote:

It looks like with all the sh*t going on, we completely missed the fact that the Boston Police Union has been protecting a pedophile president for decades.

Wonder what the odds are that this guy worked the indecent assault and battery case of Father John Geoghan, the other famous Boston serial child molester?

oilypenguin wrote:

Medical examiner ruled it a homicide.

This woman shouldn't have been allowed to resign. She should have been fired with cause the same day and arrested pending an investigation based on the ME's ruling.

A medical examiner ruling it a homicide and a district attorney ruling it a homicide are 2 different things.

Quintin_Stone wrote:
oilypenguin wrote:

Medical examiner ruled it a homicide.

This woman shouldn't have been allowed to resign. She should have been fired with cause the same day and arrested pending an investigation based on the ME's ruling.

A medical examiner ruling it a homicide and a district attorney ruling it a homicide are 2 different things.

Hence the need for an investigation, yes. The medical examiner's ruling should still be sufficient grounds for an arrest.

hbi2k wrote:

The medical examiner's ruling should still be sufficient grounds for an arrest.

It's not, that's what I'm saying. Even in a clear case of self-defense, the medical examiner will rule it a homicide.

I still see the underlying problem as the police unions having too much power. If cops were made to be accountable for their mistakes and transgressions, there would be far fewer mistakes and transgressions.

Also, American police officers are given military weapons. These are the same weapons that our military soldiers use to kill enemy military soldiers in conflicts of war. These same wartime weapons are being turned on our citizens by our police officers. I don’t think it’s a radical point of view to say that this is a problem. This a is a huge f*cking problem.

Give a guy a hammer and everything he sees looks like a nail. Give a cop a military weapon and everything they see looks like an enemy combatant.

So I’m not trying to be harsh, but if Potter hadn’t been a total idiot mixing up her weapons then it would be an acceptable use of force. She of course should still lose her job, pension, and be tried for involuntary manslaughter just as someone else pointed out would happen if a civilian screwed up that badly.

Paleocon wrote:

I honestly think that Officer Kim Potter sincerely thought she was tasing Daunte Wright when she shot him.

Is it normal behavior to scream TASER when you're pulling a taser? That sounds very odd to me. It sounds like a deliberate, at-the-moment lie, which would make it premeditated murder.

In other words, if that's not normal procedure, this was a straight-up execution, not some case of simple confusion.

I heard a news podcast where they played the actual audio from the officer’s body cam. It really sounds like it was an accident. That doesn’t affect the final outcome, though. An unarmed man who was loved by his friends and family is dead. He was stolen away from those folks who loved him so much. And why? If cops didn’t carry guns, he’d still be alive. I really believe that cops should not carry guns. Their lethal weaponry should be locked in a safe in their cruiser.

Malor wrote:
Paleocon wrote:

I honestly think that Officer Kim Potter sincerely thought she was tasing Daunte Wright when she shot him.

Is it normal behavior to scream TASER when you're pulling a taser? That sounds very odd to me. It sounds like a deliberate, at-the-moment lie, which would make it premeditated murder.

In other words, if that's not normal procedure, this was a straight-up execution, not some case of simple confusion.

It is actually.

They do this for a number of different reasons, but primary among them is, ironically, to prevent other officers from discharging their weapons at the suspect when it is the aim of the arresting officer to utilize less lethal force.