Marvel Media (Spoiler Thread)

hbi2k wrote:

Hunted up my blog post about Iron Man 2...

Also the antagonist senator is actually a Hydra agent we later find out. So yeah definitely don't give him the suit.

Not enough Civil War on these top lists

Not as good as Winter Soldier, but still one of my favorites.

Not in necessarily in order, my top tier include Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War, Endgame, GotG1, Ragnarok, Black Panther.

Iron Man has to get a nod for getting it all set up. And the first Ant Man is just fun.

Homecoming for showing how Sony could work with Marvel.

And the first Avengers was just crazy at the time for showing what Marvel was capable of when bringing in all their characters into one film and handling them all well (well, maybe not Hawkeye, but I hope he gets his chance in the D+ show).

Hat tip to Team Thor:

*The Grandmaster version post Ragnorak is also amazing stuff. Somebody should make some D+ shorts like these. Heck, Goldblum has a D+ show already...

I always forget to add the Spidey movies to my lists, but whatever they are off to the side.
Homecoming has the single best twist/reveal in all of the MCU.

Homecoming is great in a way similar to Winter Soldier in that they're both much smaller, more character-driven stories rather than Infinity War/Endgame level THINGZ GO BOOM (which I also love). Having movies which really focus on what it means to be "Spider-Man" or "Captain America" and really more exploring the concept of what it means to be a hero makes those two really stand out for me. Both have all sorts of interesting conflicts, good villains, and enough action to make it interesting, but they really come down to why Peter Parker and Steve Rogers put on the uniforms. Love them both.

Random Winter Soldier trivia--the German woman in the council who Natasha pretends to be is the same woman who was the female lead in the original Logan's Run with Michael York.

[quote="hbi2k"]

Hobbes2099 wrote:
detroit20 wrote:

As quickly as I consume old content, new content is being created to replace it. I could never catch up. I'd be the hamster on wheel. I'd be the Red Queen. Running as fast as I can merely to stay in place...

I hope I don't come across as too contentious, but you're saying you'd rather miss on content that has already been curated and celebrated for fear of missing out on content that could end up being mediocre?

No, it's more a recognition that I will never catch up. We now have access to an unprecedented quantity of high quality television. At the touch of a button we can now view the best that the World has to offer.

20 years ago, UK television was largely UK-produced with a very light sprinkling of cop shows and comedies from the US, and soap operas from Australia. Now - thank in part to channels like Sky Atlantic - we get tons of top US shows across all genres. But in addition we're now seeing amazing dramas from Scandinavia, from France and from Spain... from everywhere.

The problem isn't spurning old greats in favour of modern mediocrities. The problem is that there is so much great new TV too.

hbi2k wrote:

There's something to be said for being part of the conversation, and there tend to be more opportunities for that when the content is still new.

Absolutely,

Ultron: I feel like there's something missing from the movie that explains why Ultron is the he is. He hates humanity. Why? He REALLY hates Tony Stark. Why?? Was there something left on the cutting room floor? Things just don't seem to add up.

Winter Soldier is still my top pick. I'll play it if I can't find something else to have in the background.

Quintin_Stone wrote:

Ultron: I feel like there's something missing from the movie that explains why Ultron is the he is. He hates humanity. Why? He REALLY hates Tony Stark. Why?? Was there something left on the cutting room floor? Things just don't seem to add up.

There is that scene after his "birth" where he scans the internet to learn more about humanity, is it really so surprising he turned against us after that? The mere existence of Facebook is a pretty strong justification for our annihilation all on its own, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Captain Marvel is one of my go-to feel good movies. I watch it a lot.

Marvel has a diverse enough base of movies at this point that there are some that people see at the bottom that others enjoy enough to elevate them to the tops of their lists.

Captain Marvel just didn't hit with me. However Ant Man is great, and it's likely an "also ran" to most I suspect. And I can totally understand both rankings for both movies.

I suspect the D+ stuff will be even more so. I could see people not really getting into WandaVision (my daughter). But those same people may love stuff like Falcon and Winter Soldier or She Hulk.

muttonchop wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Ultron: I feel like there's something missing from the movie that explains why Ultron is the he is. He hates humanity. Why? He REALLY hates Tony Stark. Why?? Was there something left on the cutting room floor? Things just don't seem to add up.

There is that scene after his "birth" where he scans the internet to learn more about humanity, is it really so surprising he turned against us after that? The mere existence of Facebook is a pretty strong justification for our annihilation all on its own, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah, but he really hates Tony Stark, because . . . reasons? I mean, I on some level appreciate they tried to give Ultron a different motivation than the usual "me robot, me hate organics", but I'm not sure why he's doing what he's doing. He brings the Maximoffs in to "tear the Avengers apart". Why? What would that get him in his plan? Why does he capture Black Widow? So he can have an audience, because . . . reasons? He builds Vision in the one place the Avengers look (because the Avengers finding him is functionally Scooby-Doo logic), has no exit strategy other than . . . driving a truck that's clearly labeled as a lab truck away on the highway, visible outside the window, and it's guarded by three robots instead of, say, more than three? At the end, he gets on a jet, where he could just fly away in stealth mode and rebuild his Official Evil Plans, but, instead, he just turns around and machine guns Pietro down because more reasons.

I watched it last night, so it's all still fresh, and the movie is more nonsensical the more I think about it.

I don't keep a very specific list in my head. In my mind it goes something like:

Tier 1: Winter Soldier, Wandavision (provisionally, contingent on the last couple eps)
Tier 2: everything else
Tier 3: Iron Man 2 and 3, Age of Ultron, Thor 1, Captain Marvel
Haven't Seen: Thor Dark World, Incredible Hulk

To get much more granular than that, I'd have to do a full rewatch, which I'm not ruling out sometime in the indefinite future, but don't feel a burning desire for any time soon.

I could MAYBE break Tier 2 into two separate tiers, with Spider-Man Homecoming, Civil War, GotG 2 and some other stuff in the upper tier and Black Panther, Doc Strange, the Antmans, and some other stuff in the lower tier, but I'd be pretty unsure where to put something like, say, Captain America First Avenger, which I remember being a lot of fun but might not hold up now that my expectations have been raised.

Whenever I try to make a 3 tier list, I can’t seem to keep anything in tier 3 beyond The Dark World. Therefore, I have my (many) faves, and the rest.

hbi2k wrote:

I don't keep a very specific list in my head. In my mind it goes something like:

Tier 1: Winter Soldier, Wandavision (provisionally, contingent on the last couple eps)
Tier 2: everything else
Tier 3: Iron Man 2 and 3, Age of Ultron, Thor 1, Captain Marvel
Haven't Seen: Thor Dark World, Incredible Hulk

To get much more granular than that, I'd have to do a full rewatch, which I'm not ruling out sometime in the indefinite future, but don't feel a burning desire for any time soon.

I could MAYBE break Tier 2 into two separate tiers, with Spider-Man Homecoming and GotG 2 and some other stuff in the upper tier and Black Panther, Doc Strange, the Antmans, and some other stuff in the lower tier, but I'd be pretty unsure where to put something like, say, Captain America First Avenger, which I remember being a lot of fun but might not hold up now that my expectations have been raised.

Aww, I liked Thor 1. I give it bonus points for being one of the first and the first handling fantasy stuff (you know other than SCIENCE!! fantasy).

I saw Thor 1 over a decade ago, late at night and with an amount of alcohol that I no longer consume regularly in me, and sort of dozed off for part of the second act. So I'm more than willing to admit to the possibility that it may be better than I remember.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:
muttonchop wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Ultron: I feel like there's something missing from the movie that explains why Ultron is the he is. He hates humanity. Why? He REALLY hates Tony Stark. Why?? Was there something left on the cutting room floor? Things just don't seem to add up.

There is that scene after his "birth" where he scans the internet to learn more about humanity, is it really so surprising he turned against us after that? The mere existence of Facebook is a pretty strong justification for our annihilation all on its own, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah, but he really hates Tony Stark, because . . . reasons? I mean, I on some level appreciate they tried to give Ultron a different motivation than the usual "me robot, me hate organics", but I'm not sure why he's doing what he's doing. He brings the Maximoffs in to "tear the Avengers apart". Why? What would that get him in his plan? Why does he capture Black Widow? So he can have an audience, because . . . reasons? He builds Vision in the one place the Avengers look (because the Avengers finding him is functionally Scooby-Doo logic), has no exit strategy other than . . . driving a truck that's clearly labeled as a lab truck away on the highway, visible outside the window, and it's guarded by three robots instead of, say, more than three? At the end, he gets on a jet, where he could just fly away in stealth mode and rebuild his Official Evil Plans, but, instead, he just turns around and machine guns Pietro down because more reasons.

I watched it last night, so it's all still fresh, and the movie is more nonsensical the more I think about it.

Ultron also seems to be born with an entire personality.

Seeing as how Ultron is birthed from the Mind Gem, my assumption (when I first watched) was that we would find out there was somebody's sentience that was trapped in the Mind Gem all this time and Ultron is actually that being given form again. It would have maybe explained some things. But that didn't happen.

muttonchop wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Ultron: I feel like there's something missing from the movie that explains why Ultron is the he is. He hates humanity. Why? He REALLY hates Tony Stark. Why?? Was there something left on the cutting room floor? Things just don't seem to add up.

There is that scene after his "birth" where he scans the internet to learn more about humanity, is it really so surprising he turned against us after that? The mere existence of Facebook is a pretty strong justification for our annihilation all on its own, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Ultron is basically Microsoft's Tay without the off switch.

My Tier 1 is Iron Man 1, Avengers 1, Winter Soldier, Ragnarok, and Black Panther. If we're including TV shows, add WandaVision and the first season of Jessica Jones.

hbi2k wrote:

I saw Thor 1 over a decade ago, late at night and with an amount of alcohol that I no longer consume regularly in me, and sort of dozed off for part of the second act. So I'm more than willing to admit to the possibility that it may be better than I remember.

Oh, so you were role playing as Selvig during the film!

Quintin_Stone wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:
muttonchop wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Ultron: I feel like there's something missing from the movie that explains why Ultron is the he is. He hates humanity. Why? He REALLY hates Tony Stark. Why?? Was there something left on the cutting room floor? Things just don't seem to add up.

There is that scene after his "birth" where he scans the internet to learn more about humanity, is it really so surprising he turned against us after that? The mere existence of Facebook is a pretty strong justification for our annihilation all on its own, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah, but he really hates Tony Stark, because . . . reasons? I mean, I on some level appreciate they tried to give Ultron a different motivation than the usual "me robot, me hate organics", but I'm not sure why he's doing what he's doing. He brings the Maximoffs in to "tear the Avengers apart". Why? What would that get him in his plan? Why does he capture Black Widow? So he can have an audience, because . . . reasons? He builds Vision in the one place the Avengers look (because the Avengers finding him is functionally Scooby-Doo logic), has no exit strategy other than . . . driving a truck that's clearly labeled as a lab truck away on the highway, visible outside the window, and it's guarded by three robots instead of, say, more than three? At the end, he gets on a jet, where he could just fly away in stealth mode and rebuild his Official Evil Plans, but, instead, he just turns around and machine guns Pietro down because more reasons.

I watched it last night, so it's all still fresh, and the movie is more nonsensical the more I think about it.

Ultron also seems to be born with an entire personality.

Seeing as how Ultron is birthed from the Mind Gem, my assumption (when I first watched) was that we would find out there was somebody's sentience that was trapped in the Mind Gem all this time and Ultron is actually that being given form again. It would have maybe explained some things. But that didn't happen.

That's what I thought, too. Also considered that the consciousness was a trap laid by Thanos in the staff to undermine anyone, perhaps even targeting Stark himself, if they attempted to wield the mind stone.

Sadly, it was just a digital version of Tony's hubris, angry at being created for reasons.

Winter Soldier
Iron Man 1
GotG
Ragnarok
Black Panther

Everything else

I should really give Black Panther another watch. I remember it being pretty straight-ahead Marvel fare with a more interesting villain than usual, but a generic "two CGI puppets punch each other in a neon lightshow" third act. I had a couple of black friends who were super excited about it, and I enjoyed their enjoyment and was happy for them that they got to have something that clearly meant a lot to them, a Marvel superhero who looked like them and dealt with some themes that are important to them in a way that's more personal for them than it is for me. I certainly didn't dislike it, just didn't seem to enjoy it as much as those around me.

I've been listening through the Binge Mode MCU podcasts, and their take plus seeing it so high on others' lists makes me think maybe there was some nuance there that I missed.

Black Panther was also the first one that I thought had an equal number of strong females. I felt more seen than I’d expected.

Sadly with the death of Bosman and the implosion of the actress that played Shuri, I think that might be all we get for Black Panther.

And Twitter is running with lots and lots of fake titles. Some funny stuff out there.

I liked Spider-Man: It Was Agatha All Along

Tanglebones wrote:

Four way tie between Ragnarok, Captain Marvel, Black Panther and Winter Soldier for me

Mine’s identical except removing Captain Marvel and putting it on tier down with Captain America 1.

JLS wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:
MilkmanDanimal wrote:
muttonchop wrote:
Quintin_Stone wrote:

Ultron: I feel like there's something missing from the movie that explains why Ultron is the he is. He hates humanity. Why? He REALLY hates Tony Stark. Why?? Was there something left on the cutting room floor? Things just don't seem to add up.

There is that scene after his "birth" where he scans the internet to learn more about humanity, is it really so surprising he turned against us after that? The mere existence of Facebook is a pretty strong justification for our annihilation all on its own, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah, but he really hates Tony Stark, because . . . reasons? I mean, I on some level appreciate they tried to give Ultron a different motivation than the usual "me robot, me hate organics", but I'm not sure why he's doing what he's doing. He brings the Maximoffs in to "tear the Avengers apart". Why? What would that get him in his plan? Why does he capture Black Widow? So he can have an audience, because . . . reasons? He builds Vision in the one place the Avengers look (because the Avengers finding him is functionally Scooby-Doo logic), has no exit strategy other than . . . driving a truck that's clearly labeled as a lab truck away on the highway, visible outside the window, and it's guarded by three robots instead of, say, more than three? At the end, he gets on a jet, where he could just fly away in stealth mode and rebuild his Official Evil Plans, but, instead, he just turns around and machine guns Pietro down because more reasons.

I watched it last night, so it's all still fresh, and the movie is more nonsensical the more I think about it.

Ultron also seems to be born with an entire personality.

Seeing as how Ultron is birthed from the Mind Gem, my assumption (when I first watched) was that we would find out there was somebody's sentience that was trapped in the Mind Gem all this time and Ultron is actually that being given form again. It would have maybe explained some things. But that didn't happen.

That's what I thought, too. Also considered that the consciousness was a trap laid by Thanos in the staff to undermine anyone, perhaps even targeting Stark himself, if they attempted to wield the mind stone.

Sadly, it was just a digital version of Tony's hubris, angry at being created for reasons.

I think Ultron would have worked better had they gave him an actual origin instead of just having him appear and immediately turn against humans. He works best as an unloved & neglected child rebelling against a father who didn't realize his son was even alive to be hurt (mirroring Tony's feelings about his father that don't show up until Civil War). Have Ultron gain sentience earlier and get installed as the auto-pilot for those 5 Iron Legion suits with a main directive to protect the Earth. He's also programmed to minimize casualties but he interprets that too literally and lets some bystanders die because trying to save them AND stopping the bad guys had a moderately high risk of causing even more casualties. Stark is horrified and tries to shut down & reprogram Ultron, finds out it wasn't an error he made in programming him but that Ultron is now sentient and was able to interpret his programming in a way Stark didn't agree with. Stark still tries to shut him down, which Ultron takes as an attack against himself and thus threat against Earth as he's Earth's protector. He designates all humans as part of the threat to Earth in order to get around his directive to minimize casualties and be able to kill his father's precious humans, whom he now hates because Stark chose them over him, his own son. Resume the rest of the movie from there. Ultron's driving reason behind his plot to slam Sokovia into the earth is that he wants to prove to Stark that his choice in the beginning to let those bystanders die was not wrong and he didn't need to be fixed. Instead of trying to cause humans to go extinct, he comes up with the same sort of solution Thanos did for Titan, solve overpopulation (and thus protect the Earth) by killing most of the people on it. Sure, a couple of billion will die, but left unchecked they'd all die, so in the long run, fewer people will die his way.

hbi2k wrote:

I should really give Black Panther another watch. I remember it being pretty straight-ahead Marvel fare with a more interesting villain than usual, but a generic "two CGI puppets punch each other in a neon lightshow" third act... I had a couple of black friends who were super excited about it, and I enjoyed their enjoyment and was happy for them that they got to have something that clearly meant a lot to them, a Marvel superhero who looked like them and dealt with some themes that are important to them in a way that's more personal for them than it is for me. I certainly didn't dislike it, just didn't seem to enjoy it as much as those around me.

I think your assessment of the film itself is fair. It was adequate - good as a piece of entertainment. But for me what was more important was... it's importance. This is the first time that I can remember a major studio handing over a major property with a huge budget to a film with a black director, black lead characters, a predominantly black cast, etc, etc. Like your friends, I was excited about the film, but I was more excited about what it said about the industry's attitude.

Arguably, other films have come close; 'Blade' (1998) and 'Shaft' come to mind, but 'Black Panther' felt like a quantum leap.

And I agree with you, MathGodess,the representation of women was awesome too. It was great to them playing strong, central roles. I particularly loved Okoye (played by Danai Gurira).

Only judging title we've rewatched:

Tier 1 (Best of the Best): Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, Avengers
Tier 2 (A Good Time): Iron Man, Thor, Iron Man 3, Captain America: The First Avenger
Tier 3(Is It Over, Yet?):Iron Man 2, Captain Marvel, Thor: The Dark World

Winter Soldier is A-Grade espionage action and I feel like it's devalued by being judged as a "comic book" movie. Other than a few goofy choices toward the end, I find that movie nearly flawless.

Guardians has more humor and heart than pretty much any other Marvel film.

Iron Man 2 seems like an investors meeting on film. A bunch of cool scenes spliced together with no real reason as to why. Every time we start getting a glimpse of some real character-work something else explodes and we never return to it. Whiplash is so pointless it's funny.

Iron Man 3 doesn't get the credit it deserves. RDJ and the kid have great chemistry on scene. They are a legit comedy duo.

Captain Marvel and Thor 2 aren't "bad" they are just kinda.....there. Maybe it's because such good movies are so fresh in our minds on this rewatch, but these two in particular dropped many points with me. I thought I quite liked both of them before. Now, they're just long.

MilkmanDanimal wrote:

Why does he capture Black Widow? So he can have an audience, because . . . reasons?

I think this had to do with Scarlett being pregnant at the time.

My tier 1 is First Class. I'm sorry, what? What do you mean this isn't part of the MCU? They why did Disney buy Fox, goshdarnit!

Mystery solved: Spider-Man: No Way Home.