Dealing with Divorce Catch-All

RnRClown wrote:

I think my wife and I are coming to our final crossroads. She wants children. Our relationship was founded on a few pillars, one of which was not having children. She is trying to erode my consent and my boundaries. I need to be an obedient provider or I've ruined her life. I must not love her. How can I not have changed! How can I not want a family.

She's alluded to taking her own life if I don't come around. I've tried. It's not natural, not for me. I'm going against physical reactions, emotional spirals, mental responses. I felt worthless. I actually shutdown for a period. I curled up and was low-key shaking. My thoughts were destructive. My emotions flickered between blunted and frayed. Her response was to be disappointed in me. To reiterate how her life has been wasted.

This was my experience exactly (minus the struck sentence). Nevin73 is correct. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Mine has been amicable, but it has still been hell.

I'm never sure how I'm going to make it, even now.

I'm grateful for the responses. I really needed to get that off my chest and to hear something back. It helped. Nevertheless, I had to take some time away from the issue. When not otherwise necessary, nor enforced. I was partitioning as a coping mechanism. Apologies for essentially ghosting as a result. I needed the comfort I can find in isolating and separating issues.

As for what has happened since that contribution. Well. We had a few heavy, heavy conversations that day, and that night. They were emotionally draining. For both of us. We touched base once more, amicably so, the following day. Since then my wife was initially withdrawn, as was I, before she then seemingly bounced back to a ways quite before all of this. She won't broach the subject again. She dismisses it. Almost with a smile. This is something she has done previously, during prior difficult times. I'm not sure if it's sincere. I'm not sure if it's a facade. The desired outcome, as I know to well, is to coax me back with calm, and with positivity. Once enough time passes things will come crashing down again. Or, she will attempt to coerce me to follow, and through soothing and positive reinforcement I may well succumb. I have in the past. That has led me to give up on my hopes and my desires. I swallow opinions and go with the flow. I'm not strong enough. I know.

I'm not sure what to do. I've got a few days off work. We must discuss things further. We need a resolution. We cannot just pretend everything is dandy. We have to set out a roadmap. How do we proceed. What do each of us need. I'll attempt to raise the issue today.

I will probably follow with what she decides for our relationship, in terms of attempting to mend, or beginning a separation. If I feel she is being sincere. If she respects my boundaries. If she respects my consent. I'm struggling with trust, mind you.

I'm having a difficult time, too, with affection and intimacy. My wife is trying. I simply cannot. Not only am I paranoid about her intentions, due to conversations she opened up about with other women, women who either suggested or shared personal experiences with their men and alcohol, as well as tampering with contraceptives, to become pregnant. She was vulnerable and pouring out emotion. She pretends this didn't occur or was taken out of context. Anyway. I also do not understand how she can be affectionate, how she can seek intimacy, not when we've yet to re-establish an emotional wavelength, an intellectual connection, a bond of camaraderie. I need that. I sometimes think she forgets I'm not a caveman governed by base desires.

I feel as if she's settled for me and will tough it out no matter what. She is afraid of being alone. She is not independent (as much as I have tried to make her more so). If I attempt to pull away it's either emotional turmoil, or suggestions of self harm, or a dismissive sidetrack.

I've offered financial support. I talked living arrangements. To get her to where she needs to be, if we separate. I got nothing other than a shake of the head. In that case we need to lay everything out and perhaps seek counselling.

I'm rambling. Apologies.

RnRClown wrote:

Not only am I paranoid about her intentions, due to conversations she opened up about with other women, women who either suggested or shared personal experiences with their men and alcohol, as well as tampering with contraceptives, to become pregnant.

Pro tip for all people with a penis out there: Never put your unwrapped penis in a person with a womb if you aren't 100% comfortable with that person getting pregnant and being able to deal with it.

RnRClown wrote:

I'm grateful for the responses. I really needed to get that off my chest and to hear something back. It helped. Nevertheless, I had to take some time away from the issue. When not otherwise necessary, nor enforced. I was partitioning as a coping mechanism. Apologies for essentially ghosting as a result. I needed the comfort I can find in isolating and separating issues.

As for what has happened since that contribution. Well. We had a few heavy, heavy conversations that day, and that night. They were emotionally draining. For both of us. We touched base once more, amicably so, the following day. Since then my wife was initially withdrawn, as was I, before she then seemingly bounced back to a ways quite before all of this. She won't broach the subject again. She dismisses it. Almost with a smile. This is something she has done previously, during prior difficult times. I'm not sure if it's sincere. I'm not sure if it's a facade. The desired outcome, as I know to well, is to coax me back with calm, and with positivity. Once enough time passes things will come crashing down again. Or, she will attempt to coerce me to follow, and through soothing and positive reinforcement I may well succumb. I have in the past. That has led me to give up on my hopes and my desires. I swallow opinions and go with the flow. I'm not strong enough. I know.

I'm not sure what to do. I've got a few days off work. We must discuss things further. We need a resolution. We cannot just pretend everything is dandy. We have to set out a roadmap. How do we proceed. What do each of us need. I'll attempt to raise the issue today.

I will probably follow with what she decides for our relationship, in terms of attempting to mend, or beginning a separation. If I feel she is being sincere. If she respects my boundaries. If she respects my consent. I'm struggling with trust, mind you.

I'm having a difficult time, too, with affection and intimacy. My wife is trying. I simply cannot. Not only am I paranoid about her intentions, due to conversations she opened up about with other women, women who either suggested or shared personal experiences with their men and alcohol, as well as tampering with contraceptives, to become pregnant. She was vulnerable and pouring out emotion. She pretends this didn't occur or was taken out of context. Anyway. I also do not understand how she can be affectionate, how she can seek intimacy, not when we've yet to re-establish an emotional wavelength, an intellectual connection, a bond of camaraderie. I need that. I sometimes think she forgets I'm not a caveman governed by base desires.

I feel as if she's settled for me and will tough it out no matter what. She is afraid of being alone. She is not independent (as much as I have tried to make her more so). If I attempt to pull away it's either emotional turmoil, or suggestions of self harm, or a dismissive sidetrack.

I've offered financial support. I talked living arrangements. To get her to where she needs to be, if we separate. I got nothing other than a shake of the head. In that case we need to lay everything out and perhaps seek counselling.

I'm rambling. Apologies.

You guys really should seek counseling. Like now. Don't wait. She's got a time limit on her choices, you don't, and you really need to move on it, now.

garion333 wrote:

You guys really should seek counseling. Like now. Don't wait. She's got a time limit on her choices, you don't, and you really need to move on it, now.

This. Just based on what I've seen family members go through: the conflict between partners with differing opinions on whether to have kids or not is horrible. The resentment from letting the issue biologically lapse without first settling it is worse.

I gotta say, RNRClown, if your distrust of her is that strong, then your marriage may already be over. That kind of thing would be hard to recover from. "No more sex until you're too old to have children" does not strike me as a good way to keep an emotional bond alive.

Another thought: you could get a vasectomy, which would avoid the issue almost completely. Her reaction to that proposal would tell you a lot about how accurate your trust issues actually are, and whether you can stay together.

I agree that couple counselling is a very good idea, I strongly encourage pursuing that.

Mixolyde wrote:

Pro tip for all people with a penis out there: Never put your unwrapped penis in a person with a womb if you aren't 100% comfortable with that person getting pregnant and being able to deal with it.

Definitely. I've practised as such my entire life. Good education. Good upbringing.

It is exactly that which brought about this possible solution, on my wife's part, via excessive alcoholic consumption and/or tampering with contraceptives. She assures me it was only considered. Conversed upon. Not acted upon. Yet there was more alcohol in the house. (I'm not a drinker. When I do I stop short.) Contraceptives, which were usually left to my discretion - condoms - instead became presented to me, or placed conveniently, or, that which I cannot believe I fell for, touted as unnecessary as she was tracking her menstrual cycle, which in tandem with her age, saw windows of opportunity where pregnancy was never going to happen. Let's try it. She would prefer it. It'd feel better. She may even have developed a reaction to latex. Trust a woman on women's issues. Etcetera. I'm not excusing myself, but at that time I had no reason to doubt her, at all, not following ten years of trust, and apparent alignment, concerning children. She was dismayed when I was quizzical. I was disappointed in myself for causing that. Horribly. It was probably paranoia. So, I went with it. Once. It was awkward. I was not myself for quite a time thereafter. (Our pregnancy actually traced back to that date.)

I discovered she had an app on her phone and certain dates highlighted. Pregnancy tests in the home. This was new. It was discreet. She was hoping to fall pregnant. Banking on the words of other's who had conditioned her to believe that I'd adjust. Maybe I would have. I've heard such before. If I didn't she'd still have a child.

We always utilised contraceptives. The only reason a surgical solution was never sought was on the word of most everyone, friends, family, colleagues, that age, or stability, would see a natural progression towards wanting a family. It never did. I wondered if it would. I guess not for me. And if it simply happened against all odds, well, maybe it was actually meant to be. (Which is the mantra that I was acting upon in preparation to be a father. Changes to the home. Financial alterations. Tailoring my work schedule. I could do this.)

Until I discovered deceptive methods had been discussed and conditioned towards, our relationship was good. I was always prepared for a fluke. I knew I had opted in for that possibility even with precautions. It's the deception. It wasn't just a fluke. The following clash between one partner seeking further purposeful attempts, whilst the other seeks no such outcome, not even a dice roll, try as I did, is also only an issue because apparently separation is not an option.

I feel for my wife. If we hadn't miscarried our lives would be so different. She saw that I was prepared to adjust and to try my best. She cannot get her head around my reluctance to get us back to that stage. We were there before. But, for me, that 'before' simply happened. I was reacting to what was already in motion. It was done. This time is different. I'm being asked to one hundred percent opt in. That was never in my DNA. I never promised. I spelt out the opposite as a safeguard. I suppose my oath to not run a mile, nor force termination, should the fates go against the odds, gave her just enough slim hope. And if I was none the wiser to her tinkering those odds, like apparently so many, who would that hurt. I simply made it difficult to tinker the odds, I'm just that careful in many instances, that it led her to put too much time in. She also says she has went back and forth herself. She was adamant in the beginning. Slowly evolving over time. Swaying this way and that.

Sorry. Rambling. Again. It's helping to unpack.

To be honest, that first paragraph justifies you getting a vasectomy at your earliest convenience.

It's harsh, but if you feel strongly about not having children, honestly, RUN. This is wildly inappropriate behaviour on her part and, in my opinion, inexcusable. Taking important choices away from someone intentionally is usually described with very, very harsh words.

I appreciate everything that each of you have offered. Please do not read into any quotation of certain contributions whilst not others. It's more to do with where my focus is at that moment, or that which provides a springboard to delve back in.

I have taken everything on-board. I've re-read. It's a great aid.

Malor wrote:

I gotta say, RNRClown, if your distrust of her is that strong, then your marriage may already be over. That kind of thing would be hard to recover from.

I do think this may ring true. Effectively, the fire in my heart is out. I'm not sure if that can be rekindled. Or, if it'd ever be more than a half-life were it to spark once more.

Malor wrote:

Another thought: you could get a vasectomy, which would avoid the issue almost completely. Her reaction to that proposal would tell you a lot about how accurate your trust issues actually are, and whether you can stay together.

I've considered that it may in fact be time. I'm 36 years old as of this moment. That's more than a fair margin for a potential change of heart, whether from age, whether from stability, that has simply never manifested within my soul. I had thought on it many years prior only to have it suggested I was too young. My wife thought it unnecessary. My mother thought it silly. Plus, contraceptives and common sense had always done their jobs. It may well be time. As you say, it may also finalise these issues once and for all.

-----------

As for the planned conversations. They have not occurred. My wife is distant and despondent. I'm not sure as to why. Her mood simply swerved. She was somewhat jovial and motivated beforehand. I came back from work. I slept. Then everything was different. We didn't get to talking. Any careful suggestions about anything fizzled out. I'm giving her time and space. It doesn't seem a good time to pile anything additional on. I'll wait.

If you do get a vasectomy, like with most things at GWJ, there's a thread for that.

Vasectomies are reversible, FWIW.

mudbunny wrote:

Vasectomies are reversible, FWIW.

Can be reversible. The chances of successful reversal go down pretty significantly as time passes.

Regardless, considering where they are in the relationship over the question of children, I'm not sure that a vasectomy is a difficult decision anymore.

Also, vasectomies are not an instant option. You will still potentially be fertile for a few months afterwards. Doctor should tell you that if you go that route, but just be aware.

Also, maybe a controversial opinion, especially considering the health of your relationship, but you should know that... A vasectomy is your decision. It's your body, you can get one without anyone else's permission. Probably an instant sabotage of your relationship if you do it without telling her, but you know. It's still an option.

I have never been divorced (and hopefully never will be), but any relationship where someone says to themselves "I can change them after we are a settled couple" is doomed to fail.

Before I got married, I had broken off a lot of relationships with wonderful and attractive women who made it clear that they wanted me to change some things. Big things that were no-go's to me like "they 100% want to have children" (I love furbabies), "they want to move into the middle of nowhere" (my career says that's impossible), or "gaming is for children".

My point is, anyone trying to change a core belief you have is already unhappy. It sucks, and I'm sorry people go through it, but literally five different married couples whom I have known for over a decade have broken up over this. They never had the honest conversations they needed to have to make sure both parties were happy and content in the day-to-day routines.

Just my two cents. I've had this conversation in person/on ZOOM a lot in the last three years. It's more than a weird coincidence now.

mudbunny wrote:

Vasectomies are reversible, FWIW.

Or as my doctor says "DO NOT THINK OF VASECTOMIES AS REVERSIBLE".

Colloquial evidence: my dad had his vasectomy reversed after 10 years and had my baby sister. My idiot brother had his vasectomies reversed TWICE and had MORE spawn.

They maybe shouldn't be thought of as reversible, but my personal life experience is that they are entirely too reversible (though I love my sister and my nieces/nephews dearly, no sarcasm here).

Clearly the only practical answer is an orchiectomy.

NSMike wrote:

Clearly the only practical answer is an orchiectomy.

Ok, threw out all my orchids. Now what?

Mixolyde wrote:
NSMike wrote:

Clearly the only practical answer is an orchiectomy.

Ok, threw out all my orchids. Now what?

Now your orchids can stop using contraceptives.

Jonman wrote:
Mixolyde wrote:
NSMike wrote:

Clearly the only practical answer is an orchiectomy.

Ok, threw out all my orchids. Now what?

Now your orchids can stop using contraceptives.

THIS IS THE FUTURE LIBERALS WANT.

I know I'm probably not going to like the answer to this but it's a struggle right now and any kind of feed back may help so here goes.

I recently started dating someone it's been 5 weeks and despite my wife being the one to end things she says she thinks I got into a relationship to soon. The girl is someone I've known for a year and it turns out my family has lived next to hers in the same apartment for the past 4 years and they are all friends.

Things have moved very fast with us but it feels natural, safe and right. It has made me realize I have probably never been loved by my wife and I truely feel like this is something special.

This has escalated things around the house though and my ex says she thinks it's time for me to move out. This is despite us making a deal that as long as we don't bring a partner to the house we can continue to live in the house. Its going to be hard to sacrifice seeing my daughter daily and be relegated to a few times a week once I'm out. It feels very selfish of me and I do still struggle with it. I was in such a dark place though, it's nice to be happy again. So this is now my reality so I know I have to come to terms it was probably only a matter of time before my ex found a reason for me to move on. Overall though my ex and I are still getting along ok and rarely fighting.

My real question is about introducing my daughter (who will soon be 12) to this girl. I read online you should wait a year, but that seems so long. I'll likely be out of the house by April and I would like my daughter to know the girl while I'm in my current house so she can come to me and talk and I can see if she is struggling.

We have plans to meet at my parents place to play board games this weekend (we got Covid tested I know people may judge this decision). And I had spoken to my wife and despite her saying she thinks it's to fast she will trust my judgement. So I arranged things but now my ex is saying no it's to soon and changed her mind yesterday.

I'm torn I don't come from a family of divorce/seperation. My daughter is the one who asked of she could meet this girl (3 weeks ago I told her about me starting to date she has asked every weekend I have had with her since then). I'm just very torn, I know things seem fast but I really trust and know the girl I'm with will make things easy and comfortable. And if not she will step aside until my daughter is (if she ever is).

I'm also realizing I've probably got some blinders up, I'm having a very hard time seeing negatives to an I introduction. That is besides possibly upsetting my ex more. My daughter loves hanging out and playing games and spending time together, we have tried so often to get my ex to try and sit down for a movie or board game but it always ends with her saying no. Now I have someone who wants to do things with her and spend quality time and I just really think it would help my daughter get what she lost back. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Rave - I like to believe that the universe sometimes pulls us in a direction.

You know your instincts; and you know this person. We can make any coincidences into “meant to be!” moments. I have been fortunate to have luck listening to the universe. How do you feel about this gravitational pull?

If you feel strongly for this person, if she makes you feel valued, and you are capable of doing the same for her? Perhaps heed the call of the universe.

Now I say this as someone who went from meeting, dating, living together, married, in the span of 14 months in - 12 years ago.

My life is what it is, and I am infinitely a better person because I followed what to some must have seemed like a ridiculous path.

There is no reason you’re life, and your life with this person, can’t be amazing - if you both understand the risks and take the leaps together.

Here are my suggestions, as someone who is the child of divorce (although I was in my late teens when it happened)

1 - make sure you daughter knows you are not trying to replace her mother.
2 - make sure your gf(?) knows she is not expected to act as a mother to your daughter.
3 - Make sure your daughter knows you are not trying to start a new family without her.
4 - Make sure your daughter knows you are there for her, above all else. Having a booty call when your daughter calls? Well. Drop that booty, answer the call.
5 - Therapy. For you, for your daughter, for your ex, and in various pairings.
6 - Never, ever badmouth your ex in front of your daughter. That goes double for your gf.

Now on to your question.

Nothing wrong with meeting your gf with your daughter. Go to someplace neutral (a park or something where you can up and leave at a moment's notice, or maybe a zoom call). You go there with your daughter. The gf shows up separately. (Don't try a "OH MY GOD!! WHAT A COINCIDENCE??" That only works in movie) Don't push it, tell your gf that as well. Let your daughter control the meeting. Make it clear to your gf rule #6 above.

Zoso1701 wrote:

Rave - I like to believe that the universe sometimes pulls us in a direction.

You know your instincts; and you know this person. We can make any coincidences into “meant to be!” moments. I have been fortunate to have luck listening to the universe. How do you feel about this gravitational pull?

If you feel strongly for this person, if she makes you feel valued, and you are capable of doing the same for her? Perhaps heed the call of the universe.

Now I say this as someone who went from meeting, dating, living together, married, in the span of 14 months in - 12 years ago.

My life is what it is, and I am infinitely a better person because I followed what to some must have seemed like a ridiculous path.

There is no reason you’re life, and your life with this person, can’t be amazing - if you both understand the risks and take the leaps together.

My girlfriend really believes things happen for a reason as well. Once we really started to get to know each other we have had all these really strange coincidences or near misses in life. We had no clue our families were friends until recently and it turns out they all really get along. My family was kind of pushed aside (still close but not as close as we were growing up) for my wife's family. It was actually alot of fun to know our families are already pretty close.

I have always my entire life believed in sticking to a plan and having multiple back up plans for when things inevitably go wrong. In my current relationship I've just kind of being going with things despite the risk...and you know what it feels natural. I feel happier then I have in possibly 23 years.

All that said Im not someone the believes things happen for a reason I've never believed in a higher power or fate. I'm well aware this new relationship will be tested and know we haven't been yet. I just need to reconcile these too parts of my life so badly now.

Mudbunny:

Everyone of those things you mention I have done I'm glad there is nothing you pointed out that I was blind to and not taking into account.

I am very close with my daughter we communicate together very well (my ex doesn't have the same communication but she's a wonderful mom) I made sure I spoke with her about all of this two weeks ago long before I planned on an introduction.

If this was some one I had just met on a dating app or didn't feel like I knew well I'd never be considering this at all.

Having met someone a year ago (we're still together, long distance) I only have one thing to add to the mix as a 'follow your heart' kinda person. The first 2 - 3 months are amazing, especially since you're feeling things you haven't for a long time, or maybe never have before. We even know scientifically there's euphoria and things like high cortisol levels released during the 'honeymoon period' regardless of age and maturity, which can make everything feel possible.

Just speaking from experience, my judgement was uhhh ... not exactly crystal clear when I was in the throes of early romance. There's a lot of excitement, and nature is helping that along. So you have to dig really deep to spot any red flags, and be sure you're not fooling yourself about what the right moves are, especially if the message you get is 'go faster'. I understand the excitement to get everything in place and carry forward from a difficult situation to one that looks so amazing, I'd probably be doing what you are too. Just wanted to toss that in there that it's not the end of the world if you slow it down a little bit, another month or two is a blip in the grand scheme of things, and the current euphoria might be pushing or trampling over boundaries in the rush to embrace something new.

It's a beautiful time and I consider it a true gift that new connections bring such deep feelings of excitement. In many ways, we need that to drop our guard and let the possibility of new love and intimacy in. Enjoy it! Regardless of how you proceed, I wish you luck and great joy!

Thanks for the input Certis really appreciate it. The newness for sure scares me especially being well aware of the honeymoon phase.

We did talk about the possibility of moving in together which would have made getting 50/50 custody very easy and helped me get my own place. In the end the smarter more adult decision actually seems to be moving in with my parents and settling for 3 days a week until I can afford to get a place of my own (should be 9-12months I hope). I just say all this because I'm trying to convince myself that when actual decisions that effect my future need to be made I don't just blindly do things.

There are things that worry me for sure, there is a 10 year age difference between us both, and I know in the future she would like a kid which I wouldn't be opposed to (I've always wanted 2) but I need a strong foundation before I'd do that if at all. I'm also not getting any younger and some friends (mostly male for some reason) really seem to think I'm to old for another. Financially we are also in slightly different places I am debt free and have savings she does not. It's alot to take in.

Since my wife left me this has been a very confusing and overwhelming few months. I feel like I can finally breathe again though and feel very hopeful for the future. Things could also fall apart tomorrow so who knows.

"It's a lot to take in." I'm nodding vigorously, and I don't even have a kid in the picture.

I guess that would be the other consideration, it's hard to imagine things not working out, but we need a lot more time to truly know someone (and their baggage) than a couple months. Bringing your daughter into the picture before you've settled into the relationship might be difficult or confusing for her if it doesn't pan out. I hate writing this, it's the last thing I'd have wanted to read when I was five weeks in, but there's a lot of moving parts. The age difference is whatever to me, personally, it always comes down to maturity and self-awareness once you're out of your 20's. My GF is only a year younger than me, so it's nice to have the same references from childhood at least.

That's the rational side, but trusting your heart and intuition is the most important thing in my opinion. I know a lot of couples who just "knew" after their first date they would be married. Maybe "trust but verify" is a good approach to love.

My wife and I will be separating this summer. It's been a long time coming, and very much the right thing for me to do. I put down a security deposit on a rental townhome today for a June move-in. And I'm feeling very good about the decision, and even better about finally having some movement in my life, rather than the stagnant unknown of waiting to see if things get better.

We're not divorcing yet. I want to give it a few months to see if reducing the wear of the day to day gives us both the space we need to work on things we each need to do. Personally, I'm not certain that will happen in a way that would allow our marriage to work or thrive, but I'm willing to give it some time.

So, there's a fair chance I'll be a bit more active in this thread, and I appreciate the support here--a ton. I've also got a few EAP counselor sessions on deck, ready for me to schedule to help through the transition.

But today, I'm feeling calm about the choice. I've spent a long time and done a lot of reading and soul searching to get to this point. And I know it's the right move for right now.

It feels awful to congratulate someone on such a move Antichulius, but I feel its worthy and everyone in this thread understands the intent of it when I say it. I know for me progressing to that point was a huge step, and while it brought pain, it was also a huge weight off my shoulders at the same time.