Star Citizen Catch-all

ClockworkHouse wrote:
billt721 wrote:

Laundering how? You have to get the money back out at some point for it to have been 'laundered'. Selling ships on ebay? Is that a thing?

Edit: Or am I the guys from Office Space completely misunderstanding how money laundering works?

The same way as any other front company. Dirty money goes in; it gets split up into smaller amounts and shuffled between departments and divisions; then it gets paid out as outsized salaries, bogus consulting fees, inflated contract bids, anonymous art auctions, and so forth. All of that is now clean money that can be reported as normal income. The front company keeps a percentage as their cut and to maintain some degree of legitimate business activity in order to avoid scrutiny.

A product like Star Citizen is an ideal front for money laundering. Funds come in anonymously in transactions of various sizes. Second-hand sales can help pump more dirty cash into the system, and since they're products without objective value they can sell for any amount. The project is a never ending boondoggle in an industry with plenty of legitimate never ending boondoggles.

So I, as a person with a bunch of money to launder, would, with the cooperation of someone in finance at Cloud Imperium, put that money into them via crowdfunding, then I'd have to get some sham contract with them to get that money back out as income (because obviously them paying other staff with that money isn't me laundering it, it's me wasting it). I dunno -- it's certainly possible, but isn't it just as likely that people make stupid decisions with their money? Just look at the first page of this thread.

Edit: Or what Coldstream said.

Okay.

*Legion* wrote:

It's clear just from taking one peek at the forums or the subreddit that there is a big community of players that drink the Kool-aid. Does that alone explain the huge, increasing numbers flowing into buying digital content for the game? Not sure.

I wouldn't be suspicious if it was just a few million, because there are gullible people out there that are probably still being strung along from the initial kickstarter. But basically $79 million in incoming cash in a year? Or hell, screw the yearly amount... the spreadsheet in that article has their daily breakdown. There is some variation from day to day, but generally speaking they are bringing in a near consistent $90k plus PER DAY, EVERY DAY, for 2020. In the entire spreadsheet, which goes back to the initial kickstarter, there are only two days that are in the red.

Or let's get really real here... they have an HOURLY breakdown. Looking at the last month, there is a near constant influx of $3k-$5k PER HOUR from crowdfunding. I'm sorry, but gamers are just not that consistent. Never have been, never will be.

Someone on /r/wallstreetbets said Big Hedge is heavily shorting Cloud Imperium

PurEvil wrote:
*Legion* wrote:

It's clear just from taking one peek at the forums or the subreddit that there is a big community of players that drink the Kool-aid. Does that alone explain the huge, increasing numbers flowing into buying digital content for the game? Not sure.

I wouldn't be suspicious if it was just a few million, because there are gullible people out there that are probably still being strung along from the initial kickstarter. But basically $79 million in incoming cash in a year? Or hell, screw the yearly amount... the spreadsheet in that article has their daily breakdown. There is some variation from day to day, but generally speaking they are bringing in a near consistent $90k plus PER DAY, EVERY DAY, for 2020. In the entire spreadsheet, which goes back to the initial kickstarter, there are only two days that are in the red.

Or let's get really real here... they have an HOURLY breakdown. Looking at the last month, there is a near constant influx of $3k-$5k PER HOUR from crowdfunding. I'm sorry, but gamers are just not that consistent. Never have been, never will be.

This is a much more compelling argument.

So, basically, CIG has gotten into the same business as spaceflight contractors.... endlessly "building" something, as opposed to delivering it, and constantly coming up with new things to spend money on.

I mean, all this money flowing for a game isn't unusual for a title in a mega popular genre like... *checks notes* space flight sims.

Coldstream wrote:
*Legion* wrote:

It's clear just from taking one peek at the forums or the subreddit that there is a big community of players that drink the Kool-aid. Does that alone explain the huge, increasing numbers flowing into buying digital content for the game? Not sure.

It probably does and is an entirely reasonable explanation. The whole money-laundering thing is yet another conspiracy theory in an ocean of conspiracy theory bullsh*t that we've all been drowning in for the last few years. I'm starting to think that people are getting addicted to anxiety and doom-peddling. If anyone has actual evidence of money laundering, they should notify the appropriate authorities. Otherwise it's just contributing to the endless pool of "maybe they are..." filth we've all been wading through for far too long.

It doesn't explain what they're doing with all that money. It's obviously not making a complete game.

ranalin wrote:
Coldstream wrote:
*Legion* wrote:

It's clear just from taking one peek at the forums or the subreddit that there is a big community of players that drink the Kool-aid. Does that alone explain the huge, increasing numbers flowing into buying digital content for the game? Not sure.

It probably does and is an entirely reasonable explanation. The whole money-laundering thing is yet another conspiracy theory in an ocean of conspiracy theory bullsh*t that we've all been drowning in for the last few years. I'm starting to think that people are getting addicted to anxiety and doom-peddling. If anyone has actual evidence of money laundering, they should notify the appropriate authorities. Otherwise it's just contributing to the endless pool of "maybe they are..." filth we've all been wading through for far too long.

It doesn't explain what they're doing with all that money. It's obviously not making a complete game.

But a lot of people are living very comfortably. It's a jobs program!

Did they ever finish their roadmap to make a roadmap?

PurEvil wrote:

Or let's get really real here... they have an HOURLY breakdown. Looking at the last month, there is a near constant influx of $3k-$5k PER HOUR from crowdfunding. I'm sorry, but gamers are just not that consistent. Never have been, never will be.

Until 10th December 2020, I'd have agreed with you, PurEvil. But, because of Cyberpunk 2077, I suspect Coldstream is spot on. (It's worth remembering that 11 million people pre-ordered that game, despite it being thrice-delayed and despite CDPR refusing to show any gameplay.)

Now I think that gamers are all too consistent:

- We are consistently willing to kickstart and crowdfund (pay in advance for products to be developed).
- We are consistently willing to pre-order (pay in advance for products before their development is complete).
- We are consistently willing to subscribe to services (pay for services that we may not actually consume).

If you view Star Citizen through this prism, then its revenue figures aren't particularly outlandish. A strong subscriber base (say, 300,000 people, paying $144 per year) gets you more than halfway there - $43 million. You then only need to persuade another 350,000 or so people to make a $100 pre-order to cover the rest.

Obviously, my figures aren't literally correct, but I think they illustrate my broader point. If you have the right revenue model, then it's not impossible to keep the balloon inflated for a very long time.

And I must share a small portion of the blame here. I still subscribe to services I don't use (Amazon Prime TV, for example). And I still pre-order, even when I know I shouldn't (Cyberpunk).

While I admittedly didn't know there even was a subscription for Star Citizen (why in the world would anyone subscribe monthly to a game where they are stuck on making the road map for the road map?) I still just don't buy it. Something just seems fishy about that amount of revenue being dumped hourly into a niche game in a niche market that most larger communities have given up on. I just don't get how they have maintained a steady increase in users considering how unlikely it is that a game will ever be released.

Maybe I'll be eating these words in the future, I mean, for the people that backed it I hope so... Last thing I want is some con taking record-breaking amounts of money out of the industry and leaving gamers empty-handed, but that's exactly what this looks like, and what I think most people are expecting at this point.

Clearly, they need a roadmap for the roadmap to make the roadmap.

And if you chip in $50 while they work on that, you'll get the Nanoswarm, microscopic cloud fighters you can deploy to harass and degrade the systems of your enemies, even after you warp out of the Exquisitely Detailed(tm) sector in which you began your thrilling bout of Space Joust.

edit: I went and looked, and they actually did do quite a nice development roadmap. So that set of criticisms doesn't really apply, but I still find them amusing, so I'll leave them up.

Just eyeballing it, it appears that they're trying to finish everything up by November, which implies that it won't launch before 2022, since you know something's gonna slip.

The roadmap is only supposed to cover a year. At least that's what they said when releasing it. I don't think the roadmap ending in Q4 is intended to mean a final release is to be expected then.

I'm guessing we'll see 2022 tasks once they ship their Q1 milestone.

They'll put out a new one and pretend that not doing 3/4 of it is normal like they've done the last 3 or 4 times. I've lost track.

PurEvil wrote:

While I admittedly didn't know there even was a subscription for Star Citizen (why in the world would anyone subscribe monthly to a game where they are stuck on making the road map for the road map?) I still just don't buy it. Something just seems fishy about that amount of revenue being dumped hourly into a niche game in a niche market that most larger communities have given up on. I just don't get how they have maintained a steady increase in users considering how unlikely it is that a game will ever be released.

Yes, some online communities have given up on seeing the game, but I'm not sure that's the point.

I doubt that Cloud Imperium Games are even trying to sell the game to those communities anymore; those ponds were 'fished out' years ago (as billt721 said, see the early pages in this very thread).

Rather, I think CIG are trying to sell the idea of the game to new gamers; ones that don't spend hours every week on Reddit or (even) on here.

And thanks to the wonder that is human reproduction, there are lots of them.

The combined number of births in Europe and the USA alone is about 8 million per year. That means that, every year, 8 million young people turn eighteen, get their first credit cards and start making poor purchasing decisions.

Inevitably, some of those young people will become gamers. And some of this sub-group will gravitate to the PC. And some of that sub-group will discover Star Citizen. And, a few bitter years later, some of them will find their way to this thread...

It's easy for us GWJ greybeards, backs bent by the weight of the cynicism we carry, to splutter in dismay and disbelief at Star Citizen's ability to defy financial gravity. However, it's worth going to their website and looking at it afresh. It is actually very impressive. What it shows of the 'game' looks fantastic. And its incredibly easy to buy. if I didn't know better, then I'd be tempted to throw £43 at a Starter Pack.

In his book, 'Which Lie Did I Tell', William Goldman recounted a conversation he'd had:

"I was talking once to a famous critic's darling director and he said this:

"People talk about movies in three parts: preparing, shooting and postproduction. That's wrong.
There are really only two parts: the making of the movie and the selling of movie.
"

I am not sure he isn't right."

Companies like CIG (and CD Projekt Red) have become among the undisputed masters of the selling part. The other part? Not so much...

detroit20 wrote:

Companies like CIG (and CD Projekt Red) have become among the undisputed masters of the selling part. The other part? Not so much...

I know you're enjoying your bashing of CD Projekt Red, but they did actually deliver a game. Granted 40% of it's preorder base couldn't play it at launch, but i think they've fixed that at this point. Key point is that they delivered. CIG is a completely different story

I love it when I see this thread active. It's always entertaining reading!

ranalin wrote:
detroit20 wrote:

Companies like CIG (and CD Projekt Red) have become among the undisputed masters of the selling part. The other part? Not so much...

I know you're enjoying your bashing of CD Projekt Red, but they did actually deliver a game. Granted 40% of it's preorder base couldn't play it at launch, but i think they've fixed that at this point. Key point is that they delivered. CIG is a completely different story

That's absolutely fair, Ranalin. I was being unnecessarily tendentious.

I think one of the fishy parts is the fact that there's very little evidence of Star Citizen being supremely popular outside of its record breaking crowdfunding. Where else is Star Citizen moving the needle? This is, depending on how you choose to measure, either the largest crowdfunded project (not game, project of any sort) in history, or merely one of the top few largest.

In every other sense, Star Citizen shows the level of popularity you expect from an enthusiast space sim. A PC-only sim, mind you. A high-end machine requiring game at that, something that isn't going to run on the army of low end, esports-ready, Fortnite box PCs.

I think it's quite interesting to look at Wikipedia's list of largest crowdfunded projects. Virtually everything else at the top of the list, and dominating the whole list, is cryptocurrency related. Hmm.

The only other consumer product that makes the top 10 is a car company whose Wikipedia page describes as: "production has not yet commenced as of 2020. The company has continuously delayed the release date since 2012", which, I mean, I'm just gonna leave those phrases right here and let them talk for themselves.

(Oh, and that car company has started issuing their own cryptocurrency. You can't make this up.)

The last game I remember having so many early warning signs was Hellgate:London. I remember observing that the devs seemed extremely excited about the revenue model, and the game seemed to be an afterthought.

Star Citizen takes that to amazing new heights. In effect, they're promising a couple hundred bytes in a database for $2000. And then they don't even deliver the bytes!

Squadron 42 on Stadia.

Just gonna put that here and see what happens.

I can't imagine SC is feasting off of young kids. It's a space sim promising the world the greatest space sin (leaving that typo) ever made from a 90's guy who made space sims in the 90's, so likely most of the money is coming from other 90's guys hoping someone delivers on the promise dream of space sims from the 90's before the genre died in the early 00's.

Who has the most expendable cash in the world? 40 and up probably. That's usually when income begins growing and student loans fade, eh?

garion333 wrote:

That's usually when income begins growing and student loans fade, eh?

I think I'm doing something wrong.

garion333 wrote:

promising the world the greatest space sin (leaving that typo)

If they really were delivering the greatest space sins, then I'd understand the money. They'd have my money too.

Greatest space sins == Sins of a Solar Empire?

maverickz wrote:
garion333 wrote:

That's usually when income begins growing and student loans fade, eh?

I think I'm doing something wrong.

Stop funding Star Citizen, moron.

garion333 wrote:
maverickz wrote:
garion333 wrote:

That's usually when income begins growing and student loans fade, eh?

I think I'm doing something wrong.

Stop funding Star Citizen, moron.

No, that's not it.

You don't even need a secondary market for selling accounts for this to be a money laundering outfit.. hell you don't even need that sophisticated of a setup.. its a private company.

Russian Oligarch needs to launder an ongoing cash stream.. setups a small development shop that has an inflated contract with SC.. Oligarch through various shell accounts buys $XM of virtual goods.. SC pays the small development shop with the inflated contract.. Oligarch pays the small dev shop a reasonable market salary to product some part of the never ending SC shell game and pockets the rest.. If what Hollywood says is true then the person is looking for .60 to .70 on the $1.00 for the laundering.

Is there anything else in the gaming community similar to Star Citizen? When a coworker explained the concept, I remember thinking, "That sounds amazing!" I went home, loaded up twitch, and watched a few separate streams.

Every...single...stream...was the same.

Streamer: Look at this blade of grass, look at the detail. This is amazing. I love the new micro-whatever update! Sure, I can't do anything because all the missions are bugged but look at the detail on these rocks! Look at the minute cracks!

I noped out of there real quick

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Greatest space sins == Sins of a Solar Empire?

Of all the potential space sins, you went for the nerdiest one.