[Discussion] Election 2020

Seems like the board is set. Let’s see how this goes.

I understand the wariness around The Lincoln Project, Powell, Kasich, et al, but I do think there is some potential long term value for even the left wing of the Democratic Party. Specifically I’m referring to people like Trichy’s dad- average voters who have now crossed the hard psychological barrier of switching political sides for the first time. Even if they think it’s a temporary move, I suspect most are going to rather quickly find themselves a lot more sympathetic to liberal policies and liberal politicians now that they’re on the same “team”. They’re also going to be more open to criticism of conservative dogma that they have previously always accepted at face value. I think this effect has the potential to continue long after Trump’s gone.

Seems pretty on the nose to me when Trump is praising the Nazis in Charlottesville as very fine people.

Jayhawker wrote:

At some point, doesn't it become obvious? This is EXACTLY the line Russia wants the far left to take. Attack the people attacking their puppet. I'm not sending them money, I'm not voting for anyone they endorse, other than Biden. And I was voting Democrat before the Lincoln Project came around.

You really do seem to think that everyone who doesn't toe the line is being played by Russia. That somehow Leftists and other independents simply aren't smart enough to see that their strings are being pulled by the evil Russians. I'm of the opinoin that anybody who is afraid to speak truth to power is the puppet.
I am not a Democrat. I do not owe and will not declare my unquestioning allegience to either major party. I will not dance to anybody else's tune. Not Putin's, not Trump's, not Biden's, and certainly not yours. I will continue to point out things that I consider troublesome and problematic regardless of who is responsible. If that, somehow -inexplicably, given the near-zero impact of an average person shouting into the wind- damages a candidate... perhaps a better candidate should have been chosen.

peanut3141 wrote:

Ah, I disagree. I think Trump's presidency is a greater threat to *American democracy* than Nazi Germany was and I'm willing to accept allies of convenience to stop it.

Ah yes, an actual World War is very much equatable to US political advertisements and temporary alliances.

r013nt0 wrote:

I mean, just look at the response from Liberals to all of the Project Lincoln ads. Constant retweeting, constant "Yeah!" responses, "welcome to the resistance" nonsense. Endless gushing articles from various pundits praising the likes of George Conway and Rick Wilson. Not to mention the attempts to rehabilitate the image of George W. Bush, a man with the blood of a million Iraqi citizens on his hands.

These people should not be counted among your allies. They are not playing for the same team, they are not on the same side. They are merely smart enough to see the direction their team is headed, and they are using Liberals and corporate Dems to take back their party for their own personal gain. That's it and that's all.

But, is anyone here praising Kasich or Powell or the Lincoln Project guys, much less worshiping them as heroes?

I think rather, I have seen the sentiment that the enemy of my in enemy is, if not my friend, is at least useful in the now.

And personally, I would love for Bush Jr. to endorse Biden, preferably during Trump's convention speech. Not because I want the Dems to have anything to do with him, in fact, after that he should just stay on his ranch and paint dog paintings for the rest of his life. But, because if we can get even a percentage point more votes, then we get just that much more of a chance to save this very imperfect Republic. Or if not save, at least give us a fighting chance to keep pushing things to the left and maybe, actually save it in the future.

Ultimately, because where I and millions of other Americans live are off of the map of the United States of Canada that is floating around, I'm afraid of waking up someday soon in the Confederate States of Gilead.

I am not saying that anyone here is hoping that the Union fails, but I think a lot of people in safe blue states imagine they have a fantasy safety net if things really, truly go off the rails.

Badferret wrote:

And personally, I would love for Bush Jr. to endorse Biden.

You're in luck. The entire family has.

*saw this earlier but cannot now find a source, so grain of salt.

r013nt0 wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

Ah, I disagree. I think Trump's presidency is a greater threat to *American democracy* than Nazi Germany was and I'm willing to accept allies of convenience to stop it.

Ah yes, an actual World War is very much equatable to US political advertisements and temporary alliances.

In terms of threat to American democracy, yes, which is why I said exactly that. You seem to have chosen to ignore my intent.

peanut3141 wrote:

In terms of threat to American democracy, yes, which is why I said exactly that. You seem to have chosen to ignore my intent.

It really, REALLY isn't. Not even close. And to try to equivocate the two is absusrd, myopic, and disgusting, honestly. And I consider donald to be a massive threat to our democracy.

r013nt0 wrote:
Jayhawker wrote:

At some point, doesn't it become obvious? This is EXACTLY the line Russia wants the far left to take. Attack the people attacking their puppet. I'm not sending them money, I'm not voting for anyone they endorse, other than Biden. And I was voting Democrat before the Lincoln Project came around.

I'm of the opinoin that anybody who is afraid to speak truth to power is the puppet.
I am not a Democrat. I do not owe and will not declare my unquestioning allegience to either major party. I will not dance to anybody else's tune. Not Putin's, not Trump's, not Biden's, and certainly not yours. I will continue to point out things that I consider troublesome and problematic regardless of who is responsible. If that, somehow -inexplicably, given the near-zero impact of an average person shouting into the wind- damages a candidate... perhaps a better candidate should have been chosen.

Right. That's why Sanders never had even remote chance of winning the nomination. That's now how politics works. Because if your support and vote can't be counted on, there is no reason to give in to any of your demands or requests.

It's why AOC is a million times better than Sanders. She understands that politics are not good or evil. It is merely the tool we use to compromise in large groups. You can do it with honor, with evil intent, or just dumb.

Trashing the only nominee that can beat Trump is dumb.

Not realizing that Trump and Trumpism is the coming of a complete fascist dictatorship that will end any chance of a moderate Republican holding power again, let alone Bernie Sanders is also dumb.

AOC has proven that she not only talks a great game, she is smart as a whip and understands politics.

r013nt0 wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

In terms of threat to American democracy, yes, which is why I said exactly that. You seem to have chosen to ignore my intent.

It really, REALLY isn't. Not even close. And to try to equivocate the two is absusrd, myopic, and disgusting, honestly. And I consider donald to be a massive threat to our democracy.

Dude, you need to do some history learnin'

WW2 was not a threat to US democracy. Period.

Nazis weren't occupying statehouses or standing outside polling stations with rifles to "secure the vote" (i.e. discourage the browns from voting).

It was a military threat to the US, sure, but our entire system of government was not in the process of being hijacked.

Jayhawker wrote:

Because if your support and vote can't be counted on, there is no reason to give in to any of your demands or requests.

It's why AOC is a million times better than Sanders. She understands that politics are not good or evil. It is merely the tool we use to compromise in large groups. You can do it with honor, with evil intent, or just dumb.

You will just never get it. My vote absolutely can be counted on. If you earn it. Nobody is entitled to my vote. Nobody is entiteld to your vote, either. I have voted in every election since I turned 18 except one, which is when I moved and forgot to re-register. This is the very essential founding theory behind democracy. Earn votes.
So once again your assertions are baseless and meaningless.

And AOC is out there right now speaking truth to power by calling out Pelosi, so...

Sometimes I think P&C should have a dedicated thread for "does my analogy make any sense?" but best I can do is this: LINK

r013nt0 wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

In terms of threat to American democracy, yes, which is why I said exactly that. You seem to have chosen to ignore my intent.

It really, REALLY isn't. Not even close. And to try to equivocate the two is absusrd, myopic, and disgusting, honestly. And I consider donald to be a massive threat to our democracy.

I am not equivocating. I am attempting to be very explicit and direct. I'll admit I wasn't alive during WWII, but from what I know, the democratic norms that have been violated during this presidency exceed those violated during WWII. I do not remember learning that FDR attempted to discredit the electoral process to retain power. Though he worked with Stalin, I do not recall him idolizing him and wishing he held a similar position in the United States.

And there was some expectation those violations that did occur were not acceptable long-term and must end with the wars against Germany and Japan. I do not see this today. That is why I see a greater threat to our democracy now.

I'm sorry you find me absurd and disgusting, but as a great woman once said, it is what it is.

Jonman wrote:

Dude, you need to do some history learnin'

WW2 was not a threat to US democracy. Period.

Nazis weren't occupying statehouses or standing outside polling stations with rifles to "secure the vote" (i.e. discourage the browns from voting).

It was a military threat to the US, sure, but our entire system of government was not in the process of being hijacked.

So Hitler wasn't bent on world domaination? You are asserting that his plan was to leave us alone after Europe? If that's the case why did we go to war?

This is a silly derail.

r013nt0 wrote:
Jonman wrote:

Dude, you need to do some history learnin'

WW2 was not a threat to US democracy. Period.

Nazis weren't occupying statehouses or standing outside polling stations with rifles to "secure the vote" (i.e. discourage the browns from voting).

It was a military threat to the US, sure, but our entire system of government was not in the process of being hijacked.

So Hitler wasn't bent on world domaination? You are asserting that his plan was to leave us alone after Europe? If that's the case why did we go to war?

This is a silly derail.

If you can gather enough red string to connect the bombing of Pearl Harbor by Not-Germany with the hypothetical overthrow of the US government by Nazi Germany, it ain't me with the problem, pal.

peanut3141 wrote:

I'm sorry you find me absurd and disgusting, but as a great woman once said, it is what it is.

I do not. I didn't say that, as that would be ad hominem and I don't debate that way. I directed my comment at your argument itself. As much as people here find my argumentative style distasteful, I do not sink to personal attacks.

r013nt0 wrote:

I do not. I didn't say that, as that would be ad hominem and I don't debate that way. I directed my comment at your argument itself. As much as people here find my argumentative style distasteful, I do not sink to personal attacks.

That's a stupid-ass thing to say.

Spoiler:

Only kidding! But did you feel like I was calling you stupid?

r013nt0 wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

I'm sorry you find me absurd and disgusting, but as a great woman once said, it is what it is.

I do not. I didn't say that, as that would be ad hominem and I don't debate that way. I directed my comment at your argument itself. As much as people here find my argumentative style distasteful, I do not sink to personal attacks.

Oh, I know this one. My relatives don't find gay people disgusting and morally reprehensible, just the things they do, say and advocate for.

Jonman wrote:

If you can gather enough red string to connect the bombing of Pearl Harbor with the hypothetical overthrow of the US government by Nazi Germany, it ain't me with the problem, pal.

For example, this.
I don't feel the need to engage in this manner.

It would be easy enough to simply state that you disagree. That you don't believe that Hitler was planning on complete domination of the globe. You could link sources, you could offer up evidence.

Or not.

peanut3141 wrote:

Oh, I know this one. My relatives don't find gay people disgusting and morally reprehensible, just the things they do, say and advocate for.

See, I'd just call this another example. There is nothing simliar between my calling your argument equating a World War with the Lincoln Project being considered an ally "problematic," let's say, and judging people based on their sexuality.

Well this threads not long for this world. We just can’t have nice things in P&C.

And I’m on the side of we need Trump out. Full stop. Mitch McConnell is welcome to speak if he helps that happen as far as I’m concerned.

Ok, maybe that’s too far....

Jonman wrote:

If you can gather enough red string to connect the bombing of Pearl Harbor by Not-Germany with the hypothetical overthrow of the US government by Nazi Germany, it ain't me with the problem, pal.

To be extremely fair, Germany did try to encourage Mexico to invade the US as a distraction. I wouldn't say Germany posed absolutely no threat to US democracy, but as previously stated, I think it was less.

They invaded our allies and supported Japan who violated our territorial integrity, but we didn't destroy our political system in the process of confronting and overcoming that threat.

r013nt0 wrote:
Jonman wrote:

If you can gather enough red string to connect the bombing of Pearl Harbor with the hypothetical overthrow of the US government by Nazi Germany, it ain't me with the problem, pal.

For example, this.
I don't feel the need to engage in this manner.

It would be easy enough to simply state that you disagree. That you don't believe that Hitler was planning on complete domination of the globe. You could link sources, you could offer up evidence.

Or not.

NOPE!

IMAGE(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/California_sea_lion_in_La_Jolla_%2870568%29.jpg)

I am more than happy to discontinue the derail about WWII and go back to discussing how we are going to nudge the party to the left after the election or something.

Okay, how about this? What if Hitler and Trump are alive at the same time? Trump doesn't like Hitler and if you support Trump's re-election you'll definitely get rid of Hitler, but if you don't support Trump, Hitler will take over the world.

Do you still support Colin Powell speaking at the DNC to defeat Trump if it helps Hitler?

/s

My eyes glazed over about a half page back, but I did notice a lot of I and You statements back there and I would like this thread to not be a our ourselves and be about the actual topic, thanks. Will check back after work and more carefully review.

Focusing on the Presidential election for nudging the country's political needle left is silly, IMO. A normal president compromises all the time. As always, the lefties miss the trees for the forest. Win local and state elections, get more AOCs in congress. Vote for and support a president who is just left enough to make incremental progress or at least not lose progress that has been made. Assume you're doing the work that's going to make lives better for future generations, not ours.

Chairman_Mao wrote:

Focusing on the Presidential election for nudging the country's political needle left is silly, IMO. A normal president compromises all the time. As always, the lefties miss the trees for the forest. Win local and state elections, get more AOCs in congress. Vote for and support a president who is just left enough to make incremental progress or at least not lose progress that has been made. Assume you're doing the work that's going to make lives better for future generations, not ours.

Centrists literally make organizing illegal using federal laws...

Chairman_Mao wrote:

Focusing on the Presidential election for nudging the country's political needle left is silly, IMO. A normal president compromises all the time. As always, the lefties miss the trees for the forest. Win local and state elections, get more AOCs in congress. Vote for and support a president who is just left enough to make incremental progress or at least not lose progress that has been made. Assume you're doing the work that's going to make lives better for future generations, not ours.

I would definitely agree with this in most normal circumstances. I think the difficulties currently are coming from two sides. One is the absolute need to get rid of donald. Pretty sure nobody here would argue against the point that he needs to go.
But from the other direction we have the other existential threats of climate change, which cannot wait for future generations, universal healthcare (UBI would also be nice) which cannot wait past this current epidemic, and the myriad social and economic reforms which are all decades or centuries too slow in coming about as well.

r013nt0 wrote:
Chairman_Mao wrote:

Focusing on the Presidential election for nudging the country's political needle left is silly, IMO. A normal president compromises all the time. As always, the lefties miss the trees for the forest. Win local and state elections, get more AOCs in congress. Vote for and support a president who is just left enough to make incremental progress or at least not lose progress that has been made. Assume you're doing the work that's going to make lives better for future generations, not ours.

I would definitely agree with this in most normal circumstances. I think the difficulties currently are coming from two sides. One is the absolute need to get rid of donald. Pretty sure nobody here would argue against the point that he needs to go.
But from the other direction we have the other existential threats of climate change, which cannot wait for future generations, universal healthcare (UBI would also be nice) which cannot wait past this current epidemic, and the myriad social and economic reforms which are all decades or centuries too slow in coming about as well.

Climate change is the only truly existential threat we face. Even if Biden fully recognizes that, he's not going to get sh*t done without a few more D senators to cast majority votes.

DSGamer wrote:

Centrists literally make organizing illegal using federal laws...

#notallcentrists? You'll have to define organizing then, because pandemic time excluded, it's perfectly legal to go door to door as part of an organization to talk to people. I highly recommend this Ezra Klein Show episode for a look at how organizations should go about effecting change.

In any case, all the more reason to get more lefty congresspeople elected to office.