[Discussion] Election 2020

Seems like the board is set. Let’s see how this goes.

Zona wrote:

I do believe that would be the difference between us. My first major political experience was the crushing disappointment of George W. Bush being reelected. It taught me pragmatism. But I can see how coming to a political awakening under an era of hope could leave you cynical.

I was into politics through the Bush years as well (I’m in my 40’s) Obama was just the first politician I was excited about. I remember hoping Bush wouldn’t be re-elected, but Kerry was exceedingly bland and I didn’t really expect him to be able to pull it off.

ruhk wrote:

I was politically active through the Bush years as well, I’m in my 40’s, Obama was just the first politician I was excited about. I remember hoping Bush wouldn’t be re-elected, but Kerry was exceedingly bland and I didn’t really expect him to be able to pull it off.

He outran the fundamentals of the race. In hindsight I'm surprised he did as well as he did vs Bush in 04.

Just to be clear, I want you to be right. I dearly wish to live in a world where you have a better understanding of politics then I do. I want a world where politicians are judged by the general public the way you judge them. I have been trying to work towards that goal since I turned 18. I have donated time, money, and energy to that cause since I was old enough to legally do so. I have been pushing back against the sh*tty views of the people around me, friends and family alike, since I was in my teens. I have been volunteering, phone banking, and since it's become a thing text banking for progressive challengers in safe seats since I was old enough to legally engage in those practices. Most of the time, until very recently I've been disappointed. But in the last two cycles, the challengers I've put in the time for have started winning, I had no expectation that Bowman would have carried it, but he did. Believe me when I say I'm thrilled.

But at the end of the day if he had lost I would have still put in the same amount of effort to get Engel reelected as I'm putting in to getting Bowman elected*. Like I've done for years. Because I understand we live in an imperfect, sh*tty system, but that dose not mean I will let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

If I ever seem hostile, forgive me. I want the same end goal, but I get frustrated with what I see as ineffective ways to achieve it.

But at the same time, if I get defensive, it's because I recognize that the Democratic Party is the only real vehicle to have even a chance of implementing the policies I want with the political system and electorate we have. I get real tired of people complaining exclusively from the left. The party for all it's flaws isn't f*cking republican lite, and loudly and continually proclaiming it so just makes getting change implemented harder.

*To be fair, it is a safe blue seat. That doesn't mean I'm not taking hours out of my day to try and assist in the work of getting them elected, but it dose mean it's a safer seat to push my views in.

Stengah wrote:
JC wrote:
Lent wrote:
Jonman wrote:

Wait, radical left Democrats get a great deal on tires?

Those would be radial left Democrats.

Glad you didn’t retread an old joke.

You've got to rotate new ones in every once in a while

I don't know why everyone's so surprised about this. Surely you didn't expect to get four Goodyears out of this president?

Zona wrote:

If I ever seem hostile, forgive me. I want the same end goal, but I get frustrated with what I see as ineffective ways to achieve it.

But at the same time, if I get defensive, it's because I recognize that the Democratic Party is the only real vehicle to have even a chance of implementing the policies I want with the political system and electorate we have. I get real tired of people complaining exclusively from the left. The party for all it's flaws isn't f*cking republican lite, and loudly and continually proclaiming it so just makes getting change implemented harder.

It's true that it's the only real vehicle, it would be wrong to ignore all the human suffering they've saved people from even with their imperfect policies, and all that because I believe it and I've argued it.

I just wonder how much of the "republican lite" response is because the Democratic Party seems way more interested, talented, and effective in fighting their own left flank than fighting the Republicans.

For years the moderates ran not as pragmatic Democrats, but as embarrassed Democrats. They'll run campaigns telling some mythical swing voter just how much they're not like the other Democrats. In some districts that's a necessary evil, in some it was just ridiculous.

I mean, the thing that made the ACA initially unpopular and constitutionally vulnerable was the Individual Mandate, which was *literally* republican-lite.

So yeah, I do think the left flank ignores some facts about the reality of politics and the good the Democratic Party does. But I also don't think that criticism of republican-lite is totally off the mark.

When it comes down to it, I think the so-called 'centrist' Democrats would rather form a coalition government with centrist Republicans than with leftist Democrats. And I wonder if that's where a lot of the cynicism about the Democratic Party comes from.

As with all evil, it comes down to money. Leftists see Democrats as beholden to slightly different, but mostly the same, corporate masters as Republicans. And they are not wrong, the math bears that out. If we could fix gerrymandering, campaign finance, and public education I am sure we would get better policies and programs that benefit more people. We could balance Socialism with capitalism, and punish white crime again. But the current powers benefit from the current system, so it is unlikely to change in ways that matter. Catch-22.

CaptainCrowbar wrote:
Stengah wrote:
JC wrote:
Lent wrote:
Jonman wrote:

Wait, radical left Democrats get a great deal on tires?

Those would be radial left Democrats.

Glad you didn’t retread an old joke.

You've got to rotate new ones in every once in a while

I don't know why everyone's so surprised about this. Surely you didn't expect to get four Goodyears out of this president?

IMAGE(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ImpracticalImpoliteGallowaycow-small.gif)

Zona wrote:

I dearly wish to live in a world where you have a better understanding of politics then I do.

Cool self-aggrandizement.
The fact that you have reached different conclusions from another person does not in any way demonstrate that you, a priori, have a "better understanding" of a given subject.

Do you think there is enough common ground between progressive and moderate Democrats to continue the current system or would it be better to go their own way? Maybe dissolve the Democratic Party and form a Socialist party and a Moderate party? That would initially weaken non-Republicans (or not for those that consider the current Democratic Party Republicans by a different name). But I could see it tremendously energizing Socialists/far left groups as those who feel disenfranchised might become much more engaged.

I could see Moderates and Socialists forming coalitions at times and Moderates and Republicans forming coalitions at times. It might give Republicans a huge advantage but it also might result in many switching to the Moderate party.

Can we maybe create a separate thread that focuses on Leftist politics, theory and implementation?

I want to learn more about your positions and especially how you think we can go about pushing things to the left.

But this election is 75 days away, and we have the candidates were have: so for this thread can we discuss the current election?

Docjoe wrote:

Do you think there is enough common ground between progressive and moderate Democrats to continue the current system or would it be better to go their own way? Maybe dissolve the Democratic Party and form a Socialist party and a Moderate party? That would initially weaken non-Republicans (or not for those that consider the current Democratic Party Republicans by a different name). But I could see it tremendously energizing Socialists/far left groups as those who feel disenfranchised might become much more engaged.

I could see Moderates and Socialists forming coalitions at times and Moderates and Republicans forming coalitions at times. It might give Republicans a huge advantage but it also might result in many switching to the Moderate party.

Considering that John Kasich and all he stands for are now contained within the umbrella of "Moderate Democrat" I really don't see any way progressives don't eventually have to split off.

Done!

Election 2020 Side Discussions

Badferret wrote:

Can we maybe create a separate thread that focuses on Leftist politics, theory and implementation?

I want to learn more about your positions and especially how you think we can go about pushing things to the left.

But this election is 75 days away, and we have the candidates were have: so for this thread can we discuss the current election?

RE 2004. That was an eye opener for me about how much the GOP were complete hypocrites. Their supposed "pro military" party identity was complete bullsh*t and the Swift-Boating of John Kerry was disgraceful.

Not that I voted for many Republicans before that (mostly one US Rep that I knew personally growing up from church), but I haven't voted for any since.

I know a lot of people got quite upset at Kasich and Powell speaking for the DNC, but Powell speaking out against Trump was apparently the nail in the coffin for my dad. He posted to Facebook that he's about to vote Democrat for the first time in his life, and is currently going toe to toe with some of his conservative friends about Trump being an existential threat. I know we may not like seeing them speak, but we're not the ones they're speaking to. Trump just lost a vote, and Biden gained a vote, and that seems to be a net positive.

That's good to hear, trichy.

trichy wrote:

I know a lot of people got quite upset at Kasich and Powell speaking for the DNC, but Powell speaking out against Trump was apparently the nail in the coffin for my dad. He posted to Facebook that he's about to vote Democrat for the first time in his life, and is currently going toe to toe with some of his conservative friends about Trump being an existential threat. I know we may not like seeing them speak, but we're not the ones they're speaking to. Trump just lost a vote, and Biden gained a vote, and that seems to be a net positive.

That's good news, and I truly hope that the follow through on actually voting for Biden occurs. My fear is that too many people will say, "I can't vote for Trump" but vote for him anyway once they have their ballot. I'd be curious to know if it's only Trump that is considered the existential threat or if the move of support is completely away from the Republican party?

trichy wrote:

I know a lot of people got quite upset at Kasich and Powell speaking for the DNC, but Powell speaking out against Trump was apparently the nail in the coffin for my dad. He posted to Facebook that he's about to vote Democrat for the first time in his life, and is currently going toe to toe with some of his conservative friends about Trump being an existential threat. I know we may not like seeing them speak, but we're not the ones they're speaking to. Trump just lost a vote, and Biden gained a vote, and that seems to be a net positive.

Yup.

Kasich and Powell spoke because--contrary to the view that Trump's supporters are a monolithic bloc of super racist assholes who've pledged their undying fealty to the Orange Man--there are a considerable number of moderate Republicans and Republican-leaning Independents who primarily voted against Hillary in 2016. They needed to hear their fellow Republicans say it was OK to vote for Biden.

Democrats who are upset about this fail to truly grasp what's at stake this election and place far too much importance in an event that is really nothing more than a political infomercial.

OG_slinger wrote:
trichy wrote:

I know a lot of people got quite upset at Kasich and Powell speaking for the DNC, but Powell speaking out against Trump was apparently the nail in the coffin for my dad. He posted to Facebook that he's about to vote Democrat for the first time in his life, and is currently going toe to toe with some of his conservative friends about Trump being an existential threat. I know we may not like seeing them speak, but we're not the ones they're speaking to. Trump just lost a vote, and Biden gained a vote, and that seems to be a net positive.

Yup.

Kasich and Powell spoke because--contrary to the view that Trump's supporters are a monolithic bloc of super racist assholes who've pledged their undying fealty to the Orange Man--there are a considerable number of moderate Republicans and Republican-leaning Independents who primarily voted against Hillary in 2016. They needed to hear their fellow Republicans say it was OK to vote for Biden.

Democrats who are upset about this fail to truly grasp what's at stake this election and place far too much importance in an event that is really nothing more than a political infomercial.

The convention to nominate the presidential candidate and pick the party platform for the upcoming election isn't about messaging what the party believes in and plans to support as policy?

DSGamer wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
trichy wrote:

I know a lot of people got quite upset at Kasich and Powell speaking for the DNC, but Powell speaking out against Trump was apparently the nail in the coffin for my dad. He posted to Facebook that he's about to vote Democrat for the first time in his life, and is currently going toe to toe with some of his conservative friends about Trump being an existential threat. I know we may not like seeing them speak, but we're not the ones they're speaking to. Trump just lost a vote, and Biden gained a vote, and that seems to be a net positive.

Yup.

Kasich and Powell spoke because--contrary to the view that Trump's supporters are a monolithic bloc of super racist assholes who've pledged their undying fealty to the Orange Man--there are a considerable number of moderate Republicans and Republican-leaning Independents who primarily voted against Hillary in 2016. They needed to hear their fellow Republicans say it was OK to vote for Biden.

Democrats who are upset about this fail to truly grasp what's at stake this election and place far too much importance in an event that is really nothing more than a political infomercial.

The convention to nominate the presidential candidate and pick the party platform for the upcoming election isn't about messaging what the party believes in and plans to support as policy?

This year is a bit different given the situations we find ourselves in, Trump and the Pandemic, but no, it's an infomercial. Sure, mention is made of the big tent items of the party but there's no real meat or explanation as to how it's going to be done. If you don't think that's the case, just watch the RNC convention next week. It's not even going to be an infomercial. Just hours of grievances, racism, and fear mongering.

JC wrote:
DSGamer wrote:
OG_slinger wrote:
trichy wrote:

I know a lot of people got quite upset at Kasich and Powell speaking for the DNC, but Powell speaking out against Trump was apparently the nail in the coffin for my dad. He posted to Facebook that he's about to vote Democrat for the first time in his life, and is currently going toe to toe with some of his conservative friends about Trump being an existential threat. I know we may not like seeing them speak, but we're not the ones they're speaking to. Trump just lost a vote, and Biden gained a vote, and that seems to be a net positive.

Yup.

Kasich and Powell spoke because--contrary to the view that Trump's supporters are a monolithic bloc of super racist assholes who've pledged their undying fealty to the Orange Man--there are a considerable number of moderate Republicans and Republican-leaning Independents who primarily voted against Hillary in 2016. They needed to hear their fellow Republicans say it was OK to vote for Biden.

Democrats who are upset about this fail to truly grasp what's at stake this election and place far too much importance in an event that is really nothing more than a political infomercial.

The convention to nominate the presidential candidate and pick the party platform for the upcoming election isn't about messaging what the party believes in and plans to support as policy?

This year is a bit different given the situations we find ourselves in, Trump and the Pandemic, but no, it's an infomercial. Sure, mention is made of the big tent items of the party but there's no real meat or explanation as to how it's going to be done. If you don't think that's the case, just watch the RNC convention next week. It's not even going to be an infomercial. Just hours of grievances, racism, and fear mongering.

But that is their platform now. Trump made it so.

trichy wrote:

Trump just lost a vote, and Biden gained a vote, and that seems to be a net positive.

I'd willingly submit myself to listening to Powell and other idiots for hours as long as that is the result each time.

DSGamer wrote:

The convention to nominate the presidential candidate and pick the party platform for the upcoming election isn't about messaging what the party believes in and plans to support as policy?

It's been a made-for-TV marketing experience since at least 1968.

Who's going to be the nominee and what the platform is (as much as people really give a f*ck about the platform) is hammered out well in advance of the convention.

Having two Republicans speak for a grand total of six and a half minutes out of eight plus hours of prime time TV isn't making a grand statement on what the Democratic Party or its policies are. It's a calculated move designed to tell moderate Republicans that it's OK to vote blue (or just not vote for Trump). I'll take that help. Hell, I'd take the DNC reanimating the corpse of Reagan and giving him a keynote if it gets rid of Trump.

Moving to other thread.

I'm sure that none of this hero-worship around right wing war criminals like the Lincoln Project and the Bushes, anti-abortion ex-governors like Kasich, and Generals who lied to the U.N. like Powell bodes ill for those who are hoping that corporate Democrats are able to be moved left.

Can you describe the hero worship?

The only hero worship I am aware of has come from far left folks wanting to know why the Dems won't run the same kinds of ads.

I mean, just look at the response from Liberals to all of the Project Lincoln ads. Constant retweeting, constant "Yeah!" responses, "welcome to the resistance" nonsense. Endless gushing articles from various pundits praising the likes of George Conway and Rick Wilson. Not to mention the attempts to rehabilitate the image of George W. Bush, a man with the blood of a million Iraqi citizens on his hands.

These people should not be counted among your allies. They are not playing for the same team, they are not on the same side. They are merely smart enough to see the direction their team is headed, and they are using Liberals and corporate Dems to take back their party for their own personal gain. That's it and that's all.

r013nt0 wrote:

I mean, just look at the response from Liberals to all of the Project Lincoln ads. Constant retweeting, constant "Yeah!" responses, "welcome to the resistance" nonsense. Endless gushing articles from various pundits praising the likes of George Conway and Rick Wilson. Not to mention the attempts to rehabilitate the image of George W. Bush, a man with the blood of a million Iraqi citizens on his hands.

These people should not be counted among your allies. They are not playing for the same team, they are not on the same side. They are merely smart enough to see the direction their team is headed, and they are using Liberals and corporate Dems to take back their party for their own personal gain. That's it and that's all.

Serious question: Would you have refused to coordinate with Stalin in WWII if you were FDR?

I do not think the people you mentioned are long-term allies who share the same end goals. But they want Trump gone and Biden elected in November 2020. Until then and for that purpose, I am willing to use their message to reach those who will not listen to non-Republican voices.

peanut3141 wrote:

Serious question: Would you have refused to coordinate with Stalin in WWII if you were FDR?

That's a false equivalence and I'm not going to play that game.

r013nt0 wrote:

I mean, just look at the response from Liberals to all of the Project Lincoln ads. Constant retweeting, constant "Yeah!" responses, "welcome to the resistance" nonsense. Endless gushing articles from various pundits praising the likes of George Conway and Rick Wilson. Not to mention the attempts to rehabilitate the image of George W. Bush, a man with the blood of a million Iraqi citizens on his hands.

These people should not be counted among your allies. They are not playing for the same team, they are not on the same side. They are merely smart enough to see the direction their team is headed, and they are using Liberals and corporate Dems to take back their party for their own personal gain. That's it and that's all.

I haven't seen what you are describing. The ads are good and harsh, but I'm not seeing anyone supporting any of these guys to have any power other than their freedom of speech.

They are not allies, and we are not working with them. We just like this one thing they are doing. And I've mentioned several times that I would prefer democrats never run ads like that. That being dark and negative was their brand, and it would work on their constituents. It's preaching to the choir here. The ads aren't meant for us at all.

At some point, doesn't it become obvious? This is EXACTLY the line Russia wants the far left to take. Attack the people attacking their puppet. I'm not sending them money, I'm not voting for anyone they endorse, other than Biden. And I was voting Democrat before the Lincoln Project came around.

r013nt0 wrote:
peanut3141 wrote:

Serious question: Would you have refused to coordinate with Stalin in WWII if you were FDR?

That's a false equivalence and I'm not going to play that game.

Ah, I disagree. I think Trump's presidency is a greater threat to *American democracy* than Nazi Germany was and I'm willing to accept allies of convenience to stop it.

I don't know that we want to play gatekeeper for those who get the "right" to stand up against Trump.