2020 NBA Catch-All: The Great Bubble Experiment

bhchrist wrote:
Stele wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:

I have always heard it as the “flu game”.

That the normal reference. Some in Chicago say it was something else. We'll see.

Given Jordan's involvement in the documentary, I really don't think we will.

It's funny how a lot of sentiment has turned from "Isn't this incredible" to "Wait a minute, this is Jordan's version of the Jordan story".

I don't disagree, fwiw. While I find that the documentary is really good and I loved those Bulls, I loved those Bulls because of Pippen and the role players.

I'm finding it frustrating that Pippen's getting dumped on while meanwhile Jordan's getting a light touch for essentially being a bully.

DSGamer wrote:
bhchrist wrote:
Stele wrote:
LeapingGnome wrote:

I have always heard it as the “flu game”.

That the normal reference. Some in Chicago say it was something else. We'll see.

Given Jordan's involvement in the documentary, I really don't think we will.

It's funny how a lot of sentiment has turned from "Isn't this incredible" to "Wait a minute, this is Jordan's version of the Jordan story".

I don't disagree, fwiw. While I find that the documentary is really good and I loved those Bulls, I loved those Bulls because of Pippen and the role players.

I'm finding it frustrating that Pippen's getting dumped on while meanwhile Jordan's getting a light touch for essentially being a bully.

I lived in and through that time. I love the 30 for 30 docs and the like. When I heard the background of this thing, I peaced out on it.

Top_Shelf wrote:

I agree with Ken Burns that you can't have the subject of the doc be the producer. It skews the narrative.

This thing, as much as I am enjoying it, is hagiographic version of those teams. It's the MJ Story, as told by MJ, starring the MJ Singers, at the Grand Ol MJ Opry.

On Jordan's drive and being an a-hole teammate.

You could see that, deep down, he knows his approach had negative effects on the people around him. That his fierceness (anger?) had impacts that he probably regrets. Is this guy actually happy? Content? It really doesn't seem that way, to me.

I feel like he covers those emotions (guilt?) up with: I'm a competitor and this is what it takes to win. Is it? The list of winners without being an a-hole is long:

Magic
Timmy
Steph
Hakeem
Phil Jackson
Messi
Drew Brees
Pete Carroll

There's a survivorship bias in sports where the system is built to produce athletes like Jordan and Kobe. But it doesn't have to be that way.

I completely disagree on the regret part.

He clearly doesn't give a f*ck. That's why he's a mutant of a human being.

We're talking about a person who would play mind games with himself to create slights that didn't exist or that were really nothing to then create the fuel he needed to excel to a level of competition other people can't match.

Also he doesn't need to be a nice guy. That's our expectation of what perfect person hero role model we are projecting.

He was also a physical specimen but it's not like the NBA hasn't seen those before. For me that's why Jordan is the best ever. The level of crazy he was able to Jedi mind trick himself into is unprecedented. He was a grating jerk to get there but he displays 0 regret. I don't think it bothers me either. We're talking about the highest level of a sport which is for our entertainment. If success is measured on winning and entertaining he did.

Tonight's going to be rough, as a Reggie/Pacers fan. Dammit.

The latest Lowe Post is a rewatch of the Pacers/Bulls 98 game 7. Worth a listen.

Only have watched Episode 9 so far tonight, but what an emotional roller coaster...

Spoiler:

I might have missed something, but did Steve Kerr mean to say he never spoke with Michael Jordan about their fathers ever or they didn't when they were on the Bulls?

Episode 10:

Plot Twist!

Spoiler:

We spent 10 episodes blaming the wrong Jerry for why everything fell apart.

Feel like I asked that in episode 1 or 2. Just because Krause decided, why did Reinsdorf go along with it?

At the time, Phil was probably more valuable than Jerry. In retrospect, with more titles in LA, he definitely was.

I really like Steve Kerr and I know he's a good interview and speaker, but there was too much Steve Kerr in Episode 9.

Finished strong in Episode 10 though.

Reinsdorf was the problem. Krause deserves more credit for assembling the pieces around MJ. I don't know that we can point to Jackson's record with "Shaqobe" as proof that Krause was a failure. He didn't get the rebuild right and he was absolutely wrong to alienate his core players but Phil won 5 more times because he went from Dynamic Duo of the 90's to Dynamic Duo of the 2000's.

In 35+ years of sports ownership, Reinsdorf won with MJ and a lone championship in the notoriously random sport of baseball (and pretty sure they've not had a Division championship in 10+ years now).

He's not even that impressive as a titan of late stage capitalism. He owns two sports teams at a time of peak sports ownership and he's still worth less than his most famous employee.

I suppose this was inevitable. At this rate by 2025 almost all my Twitter follows will be accounts that synch music to exactly one movie or TV clip.

Yeah I saw it this afternoon with the Miley Cyrus one. Didn't go down the rabbit hole to see how many there were.

Is there a Celine Dion one? When memes collide.

On the debate about The Last Dance being a hagiography, I've been interested by the people in my life who think Jordan comes off as a jerk or a bully.

As I've said before, I was a Bulls fan because of Pippen, so I don't have any particular interest in Jordan being taken down or lifted up. I tend to agree that he comes off as a bit of a jerk. Especially how petty he is after all of these years. I think it's notable that in the 10 piece hagiography he still comes off as a jerk and maybe a little too driven.

Stele wrote:

Is there a Celine Dion one?

No, but they just added this!

I can’t help but shrug about Jordan being a jerk.

I take a holistic view of people in general. If he comes off as too driven, that’s what he needed to be to be as good as he was. Duncan didn’t need to be that way because Duncan is an entirely different person, and people are basically the most complicated things in the world. Nice MJ might pan out to be Clyde Drexler level.

If Shaq had been more disciplined and practiced his free throws, maybe that discipline also makes him a little more polite and cautious in the paint and he isn’t as dominant there. Maybe a skinnier Tony Gwynn doesn’t focus so much on the craft of hitting and is just a 290 hitter. You never know.

I can say as a Hornets fan that what made him a great player does not translate to great or even good ownership. I can also say that he’s well within his rights if he thinks, “hey, I’m one of the most famous people in history and one of the wealthiest people in the world, I don’t really care what strangers think of me.”

Fun fact: I went to Laney in Wilmington NC where he went to HS. Not sure if it got mentioned in the doc.

Anyone who believes they have to treat others poorly so that they themselves can be better is failing at being a human.

And to be clear, MJ wasn't a jerk. He was a bully.

I don’t think belief comes into it.

Blind_Evil wrote:

I can’t help but shrug about Jordan being a jerk.

Yeah, I say the following to my parents every time I see them:

IMAGE(https://i.imgur.com/03yDhfz.jpg)

I can't believe they're showing this Game 6 The Movie and couldn't be bothered to put a goddamn score graphic on the screen.

What do people need Jordan to be a good guy for, exactly? To prove that karma exists?

Blind_Evil wrote:

What do people need Jordan to be a good guy for, exactly? To prove that karma exists?

I believe being a good person is a virtue, so I tend to prefer people who are decent.

Well, clearly everyone can’t be good, that’s not the nature of the world. I’d say a third of people are as bad or worse, so it isn’t very surprising or upsetting to me that one of the few best basketball players is also a bully, jerk, whatever word you want to use. LeBron appears to be a nice guy and Kareem seemed to be too, so thems the odds. I’d rather a bully to opponents and teammates than what the long dominant force of filmmaking was into, y’know?

Blind_Evil wrote:

Well, clearly everyone can’t be good, that’s not the nature of the world. I’d say a third of people are as bad or worse, so it isn’t very surprising or upsetting to me that one of the few best basketball players is also a bully, jerk, whatever word you want to use. LeBron appears to be a nice guy and Kareem seemed to be too, so thems the odds. I’d rather a bully to opponents and teammates than what the long dominant force of filmmaking was into, y’know?

I'm not sure what your point is, to be honest. I assume most of us are just making an observation that he appears to be a bully. For me personally I don't like bullies. That's it. That's the whole observation and all the substance. He's a bully or at least kind of a dick. That's kind of a bummer.

When I'm ranking all time best players his being a bully won't matter. When I'm ranking all time favorite players it will matter a lot.

I, in fact, don't want to be like Mike.

Nah, there have been posts that are almost pleas for MJ to have been better, or be better going forward. More than just observations.

Blind_Evil wrote:

Nah, there have been posts that are almost pleas for MJ to have been better, or be better going forward. More than just observations.

I agree. I don't mind some grit.

Maybe if this was a normal workplace or he was an elected official.

It's the NBA a major league and highly competitive sport. I think I'd be more shocked if he was the perfect hero/human people want him to be.

He's flawed. Just not at basketball.

Pro sports are still a workplace. His teammates are still humans. When Kevin Love and Ty Lue both went into therapy the reaction of most people was rightly that playing with LeBron must kind of suck. And does winning have to come at that kind of price?

I think the Spurs and Warriors have shown that it doesn’t have to.

Blind_Evil wrote:

I can’t help but shrug about Jordan being a jerk.

I take a holistic view of people in general. If he comes off as too driven, that’s what he needed to be to be as good as he was. Duncan didn’t need to be that way because Duncan is an entirely different person, and people are basically the most complicated things in the world. Nice MJ might pan out to be Clyde Drexler level.

If Clyde had Pippen, Clyde may have been Jordan. Who F'n knows.

Blind_Evil wrote:

I’d say a third of people are as bad or worse

Holistic view or straw man? Assuming your argument, even if a third of people are as bad or worse, that is vindication to being an a-hole? It isn't to me.

bhchrist wrote:
Blind_Evil wrote:

I can’t help but shrug about Jordan being a jerk.

I take a holistic view of people in general. If he comes off as too driven, that’s what he needed to be to be as good as he was. Duncan didn’t need to be that way because Duncan is an entirely different person, and people are basically the most complicated things in the world. Nice MJ might pan out to be Clyde Drexler level.

If Clyde had Pippen, Clyde may have been Jordan. Who F'n knows.

My man!

That’s the reason I want a legitimate Bulls documentary someday.

Somehow we’re leaving 10 hours of Bulls documentary and still Scottie is underrated.