Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order - Catch All

lunchbox12682 wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:

Saw a TV ad for this last night that spoiled at least 2 major surprises in the game. I guess once it's been out for a month or so spoilers are fair game for ads? Seems kinda crappy

Is it spoilers in context only or even out of?

The fact that I feel the need to respond in spoiler tags probably answers that.

Spoiler:

I don't know that I'd say Vader is a spoiler since it's, you know, Star Wars but seeing that commercial probably would have ruined one of the cooler moments had I seen it beforehand.

I don't know that the second surprise Wayfarer was talking about is. I wasn't even paying that much attention to the commercial since I finished the game already.

Wayfarer wrote:

Saw a TV ad for this last night that spoiled at least 2 major surprises in the game. I guess once it's been out for a month or so spoilers are fair game for ads? Seems kinda crappy

Even better, that commercial debuted a few days after the game released.

Which was extra frustrating as an EA Access subscriber because the official reason they didn't do an EA Access demo was to avoid story spoilers.

Yeah, I can only imagine being a developer on the game that had no choice in the game's marketing sitting at home, only to see that pop up on the television.

The two surprises I was referring to were

Spoiler:

Vader and the double bladed light saber reveal moment

I've finished the press demo on Kashyyyk and am now exploring the crashed Star Destroyer on Zeffo. I have really mixed feelings about this game so far!

(I learned five years ago that talking about Star Wars online is somewhat less pleasant than slamming my hand in a car door, so I won't be saying anything about the plot or world.)

Earlier, I somewhat facetiously compared this to Darksiders, but the further into it I get, the more I feel like that's actually fairly accurate. This game, like Darksiders, is a lot of different contemporary influences hung on the frame of a structure similar to the Zelda series. As it's ten years later, the influences are different (no Portal guns—yet) but both games have a similar admirable adventurousness in shamelessly cribbing from other games and tacking it on to a fairly tried-and-true formula. That's something I've always loved about Darksiders, and it's something I think works well here.

Unfortunately, when you boost a bunch of things from other places and put them together, they don't always line up in a well-balanced way. The combat is a good example of this. The developers at Respawn have pulled the block-and-parry dueling model of games like Nioh plus the crowd fights of a technical brawler plus the skill tress of... seemingly every AAA game out there these days.

The trouble they've run into is that the duel-focused combat model doesn't work with the crowds of enemies: you'll frequently end up trying to time parry attacks against three different enemies while being shot at by ranged attackers. In a game like Nioh or Dark Souls, you'd try to avoid that situation by using tools to attract the attention of fewer enemies, use the environment to break up sight-lines, or retreat to more enclosed spaces to whittle down the number of simultaneous opponents. In a technical brawler like DMC, you'd face lots of enemies in open areas, but you'd have more crowd control options to disable one group while you handled another or to more fluidly move between melee and ranged.

At the point I'm at in Fallen Order, they haven't really provided any of those tools to the player, and the closest approximations to them are locked up in the skill tree. Rather than expanding your options and giving you more opportunities, the skill tree feels like it's been used to lock away the basic maneuvers necessary to manage the game's combat encounters.

The parts are all there and are good individually, but they don't combine in a way that's cohesive. As the game progresses and the enemy crowds just get larger, the gaps become more apparent. If this game ends up taking another page from Darksiders and trying to up the ante with constant swarms of enemies, I don't see how any of this gets more fun over time.

That skill tree also causes another problem, this time with the Metroidvania structure. Because they've pushed most of the upgrades into an XP-based skill tree, the designers were left with very little to populate all the hidden chests and discoverables that go with the genre. Instead you get ponchos.

Motherf*cking ponchos. Really?

I want to shake the hand of the person at Respawn who had the chutzpah to propose that the great exploratory hook for their new Metroidvania would be differently colored ponchos. Not equipment or costumes to let you play dress-up (I would dive into a saarlac to wear Poe's jacket, just sayin') but ugly-ass flags you wrap around your neck.

Even better: you can disable the poncho entirely, and Cal's costume actually looks better without it. Oops.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to seeing what else the game has to offer. It's frankly gorgeous on Xbox One X, and the load times aren't terrible, either. All those dark caves lit by lightsabers are a showcase for HDR, as well. I just wish the game design had blended together the bits it borrowed a little better.

Clocky. I don’t know if we’ve ever had the pleasure of playing games in similar time frames. I adore your write up.

It frames so much of the frustrating and “f*ck this” I had in much more elegant prose. Thank you, as always, with all you do, for taking the time to add to and advance the discourse.

Now the only question left is if you’ve made me more or less interested in Darksiders.

So much talk about Darksiders. Is that game good?

DSGamer wrote:

So much talk about Darksiders. Is that game good?

1 is a really good Zelda like.
2 is ok, but I never finished, but keep wanting to. More open world and loot grindy.
3, I cannot get myself to bother past a couple hours.

Something something Sony Golds.

Spoiler:

F*ck double jump wall runs in Kashyk....

DSGamer wrote:

So much talk about Darksiders. Is that game good?

I am contractually obligated under the deal in which I sold my soul to Satan that I must answer this question sincerely at least once every two years but only when the person asking is clearly not actually looking for an answer. Today's your lucky day!

Darksiders, like a lot of those AA action games of Gen 7, doesn't get nearly enough credit for how innovative it was. It's a remarkably voracious game in its willingness to consume ideas from all kinds of different genres, and it has a phenomenal art style. And it was doing this in 2010, years before "combining retro game mechanics and having a phenomenal art style" became the template for indie game development.

Also, while indie takes on the 2D Zelda games, especially A Link to the Past, are likely literally a dime a dozen on Bundlestars, Darksiders is still a bit of a rarity in taking on the template of the 3D Zelda games. There aren't many of those anymore (even from Nintendo), so that's a treat.

Commentary at the time was mostly pre-occupied with patting it on the back for being an ultra-violent take on 3D Zelda games. The "Zelda for grown-ups" moniker has not aged well as the idea of what constitutes gaming "for grown-ups" has expanded beyond scowling men and fountains of blood. The characters and narrative are all of a piece with the milieu of video gaming in the late '00s.

It's also the sort of game that you play on easy not because it's difficult but because the combat is annoying and there's too much of it. It's not very fun to have to reload after you die and slog through the first three waves of yet another combat encounter because you died in the fourth wave last time.

Which, to bring this back on topic, is a point I might be getting to with this game. I outlined my problems with the combat above, but I do actually find some of the block-and-parry encounters to be a lot of fun. Case in point, in the ice caves area of Zeffo, there's an encounter against an upgrade melee Stormtrooper and a Purge Trooper who has what are effectively two daggers. It's a fun fight!

Except... to get there, you have to do a bit of wall-running, and depending on where you last meditated you might even need to go down multiple icy slopes (and if you're really unlucky, go down icy slopes while time-stopping giant gears that you have to jump through).

It's tedious, and platforming isn't really this game's strong suit, anyway. When I died to that Purge Trooper, my first thought wasn't that the encounter was too difficult or that I felt like I'd died unfairly (I knew why I'd died). Instead it was just, "Jesus, it's going to take forever just to get back there" and to consider that if I'd been playing on easy, the fight would have been less challenging and (for me) less fun, but at least I wouldn't have had to do all the sliding and jumping and swinging again.

DSGamer wrote:

So much talk about Darksiders. Is that game good?

i laughed. Well played:)

ClockworkHouse wrote:
DSGamer wrote:

So much talk about Darksiders. Is that game good?

I am contractually obligated under the deal in which I sold my soul to Satan that I must answer this question sincerely at least once every two years but only when the person asking is clearly not actually looking for an answer. Today's your lucky day!

Lol. You got me.

Again Clock is one of my favorite contributors to the forums. Whether I agree or not (in this case I do), almost always a thoughtful, insightful, and digestible take.

My group combat was me doing a lot of rolling around and striking. I did not really get into blocking until the 2nd to last place I believe once I had upgraded my damage in the skill tree.

I also never wore a poncho in game.

beeporama wrote:

almost always a thoughtful, insightful, and digestible take.

Not just digestible, tasty! Usually pretty spicy, too.

Maybe I should get some lunch.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

It's also the sort of game that you play on easy not because it's difficult but because the combat is annoying and there's too much of it. It's not very fun to have to reload after you die and slog through the first three waves of yet another combat encounter because you died in the fourth wave last time.

Which, to bring this back on topic, is a point I might be getting to with this game. I outlined my problems with the combat above, but I do actually find some of the block-and-parry encounters to be a lot of fun. Case in point, in the ice caves area of Zeffo, there's an encounter against an upgrade melee Stormtrooper and a Purge Trooper who has what are effectively two daggers. It's a fun fight!

Lower the difficulty.

I was getting frustrated and bored with the game until I said, "Ah, screw it. I'm going story mode." It suddenly became the Star Wars/Assassin's Creed game I've always wanted. Fighting is challenging enough to not be bored but easy enough to button-mash\survive through an ambush or, if you think your way through, to do the encounter feeling like a Jedi.

I feel like the gameplay was really tuned at the lowest difficulty levels and the higher difficulty stuff was tacked on to be more "Souls game."

There's a... thing... that you get that makes crowd control much easier and better, but it still doesn't resolve the issue of fighting multiples completely.

I didn't find fighting multiples a big problem, at least not in the normal fights. Usually I could get a little space and deflect the ranged attacks at the shooters or make a rush for them and take them out first. I did take ranged damage sometimes but usually not enough to slow down my advance. I'm pretty sure there were some opportunities to position myself to take me out of line of sight of the ranged attackers during a fight.

I thought the 2nd hardest difficulty was a good balance through most of the game - I was challenged, would sometimes lose, but not too frustrating. Then I couldn't get by one of the later boss fights and dropped it to normal and just left it there. Then I still had difficulty with one of the boss fights.

I agree about he ponchos. That had to be the most uninspired loot ever in an action game.

One other source of frustration for me is the way that enemy attacks track the player, especially the red unblockable attacks. Each red attack seems to have a point where it becomes dodgeable, but it's at some point well after the attack animation has already begun. Prior to that point, enemies will rotate and even move around (sometimes in midair!) to follow the player.

It's probably easiest to see with the little rat guys or the big frog guys. If you use your Force powers to slow them when they turn red and then move out of the way of their attack, they'll rotate to follow you even if they're already well into their leap attack or charge attack. You can't slow them down in midair and then move to their side to get a few hits in, because they'll rotate in the air to follow you.

I noticed this in the Second Sister boss fight, as well. Specifically:

Spoiler:

The second encounter with her on Zeffo, just before you get Force Pull.

She has a red jump attack, but if you're within a certain distance of her and if you dodge sooner than the game expects you to, she'll not only rotate but will move forward or backward (in midair!) so that she'll still land on top of you. It's very weird and very frustrating.

On the other hand, finally getting Force Push and Force Pull makes for some really fun combat interactions. Pulling things toward you and then throwing them. Pulling distant enemies forward so that they fall off cliffs. Getting a group of enemies positioned just right on an edge and then Pushing them all off at once. It's great fun. I love the dynamic feel it can bring to fights where it doesn't feel like you're expected to beat enemies in just one way.

It's also fun that if you time it right, you can Force Push the Second Sister out of the air. That feels cool.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

One other source of frustration for me is the way that enemy attacks track the player, especially the red unblockable attacks. Each red attack seems to have a point where it becomes dodgeable, but it's at some point well after the attack animation has already begun. Prior to that point, enemies will rotate and even move around (sometimes in midair!) to follow the player.

It's probably easiest to see with the little rat guys or the big frog guys. If you use your Force powers to slow them when they turn red and then move out of the way of their attack, they'll rotate to follow you even if they're already well into their leap attack or charge attack. You can't slow them down in midair and then move to their side to get a few hits in, because they'll rotate in the air to follow you.

I noticed this in the Second Sister boss fight, as well. Specifically:

Spoiler:

The second encounter with her on Zeffo, just before you get Force Pull.

She has a red jump attack, but if you're within a certain distance of her and if you dodge sooner than the game expects you to, she'll not only rotate but will move forward or backward (in midair!) so that she'll still land on top of you. It's very weird and very frustrating.

On the other hand, finally getting Force Push and Force Pull makes for some really fun combat interactions. Pulling things toward you and then throwing them. Pulling distant enemies forward so that they fall off cliffs. Getting a group of enemies positioned just right on an edge and then Pushing them all off at once. It's great fun. I love the dynamic feel it can bring to fights where it doesn't feel like you're expected to beat enemies in just one way.

It's also fun that if you time it right, you can Force Push the Second Sister out of the air. That feels cool.

100% agree on the enemy locking. Total BS and has been one of my most frustrating parts of combat along with nonhuman for parrying.

Also agree on push and pull. I think I've beat one antijedi trooper "honorably". The rest has had an unfortunate accidents off of cliffs.

Now that I have them, I wish the game had just given you Force Push and Pull from the start and planned the game around that. They give combat such a unique and interesting feel.

Also, the way that Cal somehow just forgets that he knew them is a completely absurd plot device.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Now that I have them, I wish the game had just given you Force Push and Pull from the start and planned the game around that. They give combat such a unique and interesting feel.

Also, the way that Cal somehow just forgets that he knew them is a completely absurd plot device.

Agreed it should have been there gameplay wise from the beginning.
However, storywise I think it makes sense. I have not finished the game yet, so maybe I am unaware of some details. That said, he was never a jedi, just a Padawan. I see it has some other kid with some training that is cut off for years and begins to remember it and the associated mind/muscle memory.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

Now that I have them, I wish the game had just given you Force Push and Pull from the start and planned the game around that. They give combat such a unique and interesting feel.

Also, the way that Cal somehow just forgets that he knew them is a completely absurd plot device.

I would have liked push shortly after you arrive on Zeffo. Pull felt like an appropriate end game instant kill power. Force pulling and stab a group of 6 stormtroopers as I move through an area was goofily fun. The forgetting training was silly but at least they tried to justify it in a way that fits in with the universe. The meditation spots respawning enemies, though, that they didn’t even try to make sense of.

I played the game on the second hardest difficulty up until the final boss battle. After losing 6 times I didn’t want to keep hurting my head against the wall and dropped it down to normal. This isn’t a From game.

Loved the majority of the story and the combat really clicked with you. It really felt like the Tomb Raider reboot. The first one. Didn’t have much traversal refinement and they both had an over-abundance of sliding sequences and slow crawl through tight spaces.

I loved the game but totally agree that the combat is garbage. I had to drop it to easy and it got a lot more enjoyable.

You're a Jedi, you didn't drop it to easy - you used the force better.

You lifted some rocks and did some flips and you got better.

ClockworkHouse wrote:

One other source of frustration for me is the way that enemy attacks track the player, especially the red unblockable attacks.

I agree with this. There were times I got hit and didn't understand why. I think over time I unconsciously adapted and it happened less, but there were definitely times I thought I dodged and I got smacked.

farley3k wrote:

You're a Jedi, you didn't drop it to easy - you used the force better.

I used the force to change the difficulty level.

Vector wrote:

Pull felt like an appropriate end game instant kill power.

Wait, what? Am I getting near the end of the game?

I left off:

Spoiler:

Going back to Kashyyyk to find Tarrful. I'm past the surprise boss fight against the two mercenaries.