Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice Catch-All

Spikeout wrote:

It really feels truly sublime when you time the parry's. There's so many delayed attacks that make it even more gratifying when you can stop your itchy index finger from wanting to press that L1 button sooner than required.

I definitely think Sekiro has one of the best combat systems of the generation. There's a technicality, patience & timing to encounters that must take so much work to get right.

I think the stuff they do with the camera during the parry & deathblows is fantastic. One of the many cogs that makes the combat truly sing.

If From Software keep making their games slightly harder than the previous I'm dreading Elden Ring :O

I liked Sekiro up to the point that I didn't. Lots of really neat ideas, and a fascinating art style. However, I hope to never see another game with that kind of absolute timing-required combat. Or, provide a way to outgear or outlevel the challenge. Or provide it via difficulty levels... Just don't shut me out of the game with total skill check barriers! I don't have the patience to continually bash my head against brick walls like I once did, but I absolutely love the gameplay and worlds that From puts out.

Tyrian wrote:
Spikeout wrote:

It really feels truly sublime when you time the parry's. There's so many delayed attacks that make it even more gratifying when you can stop your itchy index finger from wanting to press that L1 button sooner than required.

I definitely think Sekiro has one of the best combat systems of the generation. There's a technicality, patience & timing to encounters that must take so much work to get right.

I think the stuff they do with the camera during the parry & deathblows is fantastic. One of the many cogs that makes the combat truly sing.

If From Software keep making their games slightly harder than the previous I'm dreading Elden Ring :O

I liked Sekiro up to the point that I didn't. Lots of really neat ideas, and a fascinating art style. However, I hope to never see another game with that kind of absolute timing-required combat. Or, provide a way to outgear or outlevel the challenge. Or provide it via difficulty levels... Just don't shut me out of the game with total skill check barriers! I don't have the patience to continually bash my head against brick walls like I once did, but I absolutely love the gameplay and worlds that From puts out.

I agree completely they should be providing a way to outgear or outlevel the challenge, that's definitely a drawback & can be a source of frustration against harder foes. Ashina has been that brick wall for me (well the Interior Ministry Ninja mini boss on the outskirts of Hirata Estate too) but I do love the level of skill you can develop through repeated efforts of these encounters.

Did you end up finishing Sekiro Tyrian?

Spikeout wrote:

If From Software keep making their games slightly harder than the previous I'm dreading Elden Ring :O

I assume that, since Elden Ring is a Soulslike, you'll be able to summon help, which will give people a way to deal with the difficulty.

Spikeout wrote:

I agree completely they should be providing a way to outgear or outlevel the challenge, that's definitely a drawback & can be a source of frustration against harder foes. Ashina has been that brick wall for me (well the Interior Ministry Ninja mini boss on the outskirts of Hirata Estate too) but I do love the level of skill you can develop through repeated efforts of these encounters.

Did you end up finishing Sekiro Tyrian?

I did not. I reached a relatively late game stage, but lost the will to keep going. It had ceased to be fun, and felt more like work.

Fedaykin98 wrote:

I assume that, since Elden Ring is a Soulslike, you'll be able to summon help, which will give people a way to deal with the difficulty.

I'm weird in that I tend to play all the games completely solo (no summons, no player invasions, no getting summoned). It's mostly an anxiety thing!

I can totally see the frustration. I really don't know why they couldn't have a option to grind & at the least increase your HP & Attack Power to make fights more manageable.

Beat the Ministry Ninja after about 3 or 4 attempts (after countless tries earlier in the year) so feel like I'm making progress.

I am back to the Ashina Reservoir & am fighting Ministry Ninja's long lost cousin The Lone Swordsman. They pretty much have the same attacks as each other but my goodness in the enclosed space the camera is a nightmare. The swordsman (like the Ninja) covers space like you wouldn't believe so I feel this is gonna take me a while. There's gonna be a lot of frustration with this camera.

Went elsewhere & journeyed through the area with all the monks. Got to another idiol in a cave just off the main gardens. This leads upto the rat enemies (tiny guys with the shield hats) that are a pain in the ass. I just learned to bypass them as your fighting on such narrow mountain paths, making it way tougher than normal.

Up & up I go until I get to the Armored Warrior, who like most enemies in Sekiro has devastating attacks & for a big brute can close the distance on you like a cheetah.

This is another boss that you just need to parry over & over, the timings are even trickier than Ashina Seven Spears. I finally got him in about 10 attempts, tough fight. There really is no other way than just learning his attacks & trying to stay calm & measured while parrying his flurry of shots.

I've still an annoying habit of dodging backwards 2-3 times to get away from attacks (unsuccessfully a lot of times) even though the big overhead attacks are designed to still catch you. A side dodge at the right time....side dodge. Remember it!

I personally think that not being able to (trivially) outgear/outlevel challenges is a lot of what makes the FromSoft games good. Games which allow you to outlevel things typically encourage grinding and that is easily the worst game mechanic around.

That said Sekiro does give you ways to outgear most (all?) of the bosses. The prosthetics can make many of the bosses trivial if you understand which abilities counter which attacks. The loaded umbrella (and specifically the flame version) is useful for all sorts of bosses.

Spoiler:

For instance, when combined with the Projected Force skill the magnet umbrella can render Isshin, the Sword Saint's final phase completely trivial

Spikeout wrote:

This leads upto the rat enemies (tiny guys with the shield hats) that are a pain in the ass. I just learned to bypass them as your fighting on such narrow mountain paths, making it way tougher than normal.

The axe wrecks these little dudes. While a lot of combat in this game is about the parry system, devising the best prosthetic counters to unusual enemies is significant as well. Whenever I have a few coins left over I dump them into... those spirit thingies. Whatever they are called.

This seems to be a very good guide for skills.

DanB wrote:

I personally think that not being able to (trivially) outgear/outlevel challenges is a lot of what makes the FromSoft games good. Games which allow you to outlevel things typically encourage grinding and that is easily the worst game mechanic around.

Dark Souls 1 & 3 absolutely allow you to outlevel the content. Like... a lot. So does Bloodborne, though not to quite the same degree. Two sorta stopped that by having most enemies stop respawning eventually.

But there is nothing stopping you from being Soul Level 60 before you even fight the third boss in Dark Souls.

r013nt0 wrote:

But there is nothing stopping you from being Soul Level 60 before you even fight the third boss in Dark Souls.

I'd say that's where the 'trivially' qualifier comes in. That would take a real dedication to grinding.

DanB wrote:

I personally think that not being able to (trivially) outgear/outlevel challenges is a lot of what makes the FromSoft games good. Games which allow you to outlevel things typically encourage grinding and that is easily the worst game mechanic around.

That said Sekiro does give you ways to outgear most (all?) of the bosses. The prosthetics can make many of the bosses trivial if you understand which abilities counter which attacks. The loaded umbrella (and specifically the flame version) is useful for all sorts of bosses.

Yeah, I used the umbrella to get through a couple of fights. It's usually not a matter of me not knowing how to handle a fight. It's simply a matter of me not being good enough. The satisfaction for getting past one of those is real, but so is the frustration at finding a barrier at which I no longer feel like I can surpass.

In those occasions, I want some way to ease the burden. I don't necessarily want grinding encouraged... but I do want the OPTION. Leveling in Dark Souls / Bloodborne had an effect, but you still had to play the game. Leveling to absurd numbers won't ever let you one shot some of the bosses, or get past certain boss mechanics, but it might help cover some mistakes made. That's what I'm really after, I think. Something to serve as a crutch / standin for skill.

That's just me, though. I certainly don't claim to speak for everyone. I just feel like having the option makes the game more accessible, and doesn't introduce any specific new requirements for folks that are good enough to make progress without the crutch!

There guys are good fun. They play through souls games together keeping a counter of the deaths.

They originally did a series called 'Prepare to Try' at IGN but have gone out on their own.

After three times dropping the game due to various time constraints & distractions I finally broke through the malaise and defeated Genichiro Ashina. Though he jumped off a roof, the blighter.
I was pleased with myself - it only took me four tries to take him down. I guess the hours repeating the opening areas in defunct playthroughs has payed off.

Higgledy wrote:

There guys are good fun. They play through souls games together keeping a counter of the deaths.

They originally did a series called 'Prepare to Try' at IGN but have gone out on their own.

I'll second this recommendation, such a great crew. Feels like you and your friends playing through the games. Great jokes and moments.

This game. There's something about this game.

I love this game. I want to finish it because it's so satisfying, but I'm so bad at it. I've been stuck on the butterfly lady for months now. I've watched guides and tutorials. I know exactly what to do, but I just mechanically such at the game.

I know there are even more difficult boss fights so I do not know what to do. I'm burning to finish this, but I need to get better first.

I feel the same, though I hit the wall later.

alexjg42 wrote:

This game. There's something about this game.

I love this game. I want to finish it because it's so satisfying, but I'm so bad at it. I've been stuck on the butterfly lady for months now. I've watched guides and tutorials. I know exactly what to do, but I just mechanically such at the game.

I know there are even more difficult boss fights so I do not know what to do. I'm burning to finish this, but I need to get better first.

My advice? Take a handful of attempts every other day without expecting to win. Just pay attention to the mechanics, to the patterns. Eventually, you'll win. That's the way it went for me, though I admit I platinum'd the game in a little over a month. There were a couple of boss fights, at least, where I had to spend days on them, but the approach that worked was that; try a handful of times without having any expectations, just enough times so that I don't get sour, and before I knew it, I would beat the boss I was stuck on.

Hope this helps.

You can actually leave the Butterfly lady and go explore elsewhere and challenge other bosses. I did that and when I returned she was much easier to deal with

She is however kinda like the belfry guardians in Dark Souls. She's kinda a gate to test that you actually understand the combat before you move further in to the game

2.5 months into Shelter at Home, I've decided to pick this back up. I had 15 hours in and figured it would be way too hard for me to start wherever I ended last and started a new game at default difficulty.

I see the butterfly lady being discussed, I thought my biggest mistake the first time was following that story arc when it was given to me rather than progressing through the main story a bit more... should I do so again? I think getting a bit more beefed up helped on future attempts. Without getting too spoilery, does she gate any key thing that I will find myself needing to go back there soon? I never beat her the first time and just decided to rejoin the main quest and went back every so often usually ending up in the same dead situation

If I recall you can get very far without tackling her. Even is gear later on that really makes the fight far more managable. This all said by a guy who has not beaten her and needs to get back to it as well at some point.

On the other hand she represents a real "level up" moment for many people. If you stick to it and beat her you'll likely be good enough to power through a huge chunk of content after that without breaking a sweat.

The first time I played through I bounced off Butterfly Lady and went off and explored the rest of the game. You can definitely see a lot and gather lots of bits and pieces.

The problem though is she is a bit of a skill gate to ensure you get the combat. So what I found was that I got to a lot of "dead" ends that had a boss I was not equipped to kill and had to go off in another direction. And that eventually sent me back to butterfly lady once I'd exhausted the available paths. On the plus side I was better at the game and did take her out in fairly short order. On the negative side it then meant I had to kill about 5 bosses back-to-back to move on and that was very odd for the rhythm of the game/story.

So definitely go and explore if you're bored of failing her because you will get better at the game, but also maybe not do what I did.

I will say never be afraid of being cheap about killing the bosses. The prosthetics are there and you should use them. Many bosses can be eviscerated with the firecrackers.

I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one that got stuck at Butterfly Lady. I ended up doing what you're mentioning here and going out in other directions to see what I could find. Unfortunately I ended up at another boss that I couldn't defeat (can't remember which one now... it was months ago).

So I was stuck between two bosses with nowhere to go, and that's when I stopped playing. I should pick the game back up again. In that meantime I've played all the way through Dark Souls 3, so maybe my reflexes are in the right place.

Going through this the 2nd time has been great.

Like I mentioned I stopped the first time with about 15 hours played, stuck with 3 boss options, butterfly, big spear dude, and big sword dude on top of stairs (game is a few years old but don't want to spoil more specifics).

I got to pretty much that same point the 2nd time after about 3 hours played.. good that some muscle memory came back as well as playing Jedi Fallen Order on hard difficulty seemed to have helped.

Also I did get a new controller.. maybe all just psychological, but I do feel its a little more responsive.

Now I was stopped again at these 3... tried butterfly a few times then focused on spear guy. It did take a while, but finally got him down. That was enough for another set of prayer beads, and I got a new set of combat skills that I must have completely missed the first time which seem to be very helpful. Went straight to butterfly lady and got her dead in one or two tries! Moved on to dude on stairs.. and after a few rounds trying to be sneaky I just went straight in and got him dead as well. Agree with previous posts that beating butterfly helps with future fights.

Loving this game.. i'm an old man but I feel like I need to play these games to keep my gamer cred

Carlbear95 wrote:

I'm an old man but I feel like I need to play these games to keep my gamer cred :)

I couldn't possibly comment myself

I got semi-stuck at the end of this game and realized I had a controller with a parry button that was failing to work some of the time. It was a low percentage of the time, but often enough that it would happen a few times in a boss fight. It turned out that a lot of the missed timing issues I was having were easily explained with the failing equipment. So anyway, that's my story corroborating your more responsive controller situation, Carlbear. Even if you don't realize it, old controllers lose responsiveness or could be outright failing (at least as far as a game so reliant on timing and perfection is concerned).

With TLoU 2 on PS4 and steam sale grabbing my attention, I put Sekiro down for about a week. Fired it up again and my timing is totally off. Can't get parries right, hard time finding the right time to strike.

May need to go back and "farm" a bit just to get some timings down again.

I have a NG+ run that I'm trying without Kuro's Charm. And I'd put it down for months and have also had to go back and farm some easier mobs to work out how to play again.

Slowly getting in to the swing of things and killed the Blazing bull, sat at the Ashina Castle idol and can not remember which way to go from here.

I'm still plugging away at it. Of course it took me 25+ hours to suddenly have it dawn on me... "THAT'S why I should BUY those coin purses" as I watch my multi thousand sen fortune disappear as I lose to the boss for the 20th time.

So now I'm considering some farming using all the various balloons. I think I'm behind the power curve as far as prosthetic upgrades go. I admit I dont' use them nearly as much as I should as my timing with pulling the RT seems different vs. the right bumper and that extra split second of "give" on the trigger seems to be my undoing. (probably all psychological but hey we need excuses for failure don't we?)