Help me build my PC 2020 Catch All

Yeah, as much as I liked working in a MBP environment, they peaked at the 2013 and 2015 models. The new ones are sleeker and prettier and while still capable of heavy use, they are trending to lower reliability. The screens are particularly more susceptible to glitching and cracking from minor impacts or improper handling.

So, with $4000 budget, I'd keep upgrading the desktop to do the heavy lifting and I have found a few reasonable 2in1's for $400-$600. (and then pocket the $2000 left over)

If we could easily haul desktops with us when we visit our families then we wouldn't need a new computer at all.

OK, I would still need something to run Final Cut Pro, which I already own. I'm not looking to purchase and learn Adobe Premier. I had been chugging along with a 2006 Mac Pro that was still great for editing. The power was there but the OS support... it was technically a Hackintosh by the time it died. Stupid 32-bit EFI. The upcoming Mac Pro revision looks pretty sweet, but it's a) late, b) even more expensive at the baseline than a tricked-out MacBook Pro, c) probably overkill, even for a machine I would use for a decade. Unfortunately Apple doesn't really have anything else close to what the old Mac Pro was. The Mini has crap for the GPU and less of a CPU than I'd like, both of which affect render times. I don't have space for an iMac, and I have an issue with spending for a fancy display and not being able to use it with another machine. That hangup doesn't apply to a laptop notebook computer because the integrated screen is key to its portability. So right now it's looking like my options on that front are either the new MBP or trying to make a Hackintosh.

Most of the reviews I've seen of the new 16" MBP say they've addressed a lot of the annoyances that people had with other recent Apple laptop notebook models.

My wife wants a portable computer that she can use to play WoW and a few other games when we travel. She also wants something that gives her the option of doing some CAD and/or GIS work if she needs to. That work is usually done on a desktop, but being able to do it on the road too would help.

I know that Macs aren't upgradeable these days. That's why I'm trying to avoid configuring a machine with unnecessary bottlenecks. I'm just having trouble figuring out what CAD and GIS systems want from a computer.

Natus wrote:

Speaking of Windows 10, the last step of my build requires Windows 10. Is this all I need?

There are some comments on the Amazon page that gamers got corrupted USB sticks. Is that really a thing?

You don't need to buy that. You can download the Windows installed directly from Microsoft and put it on your own USB stick.

As for activation, nothing will happen if you don't activate other than having the watermark on the bottom right of you screen. There are also OEM keys you can buy online for much cheaper

Vargen wrote:

I know that Macs aren't upgradeable these days. That's why I'm trying to avoid configuring a machine with unnecessary bottlenecks. I'm just having trouble figuring out what CAD and GIS systems want from a computer.

CPU, as much as you can throw at it, with a secondary demand for RAM. I'm not sure how much they've gone multithreaded, but it used to be that you wanted as much per-core performance as you could get. The 16" Macbook Pro peaks out at about 2.4GHz per core, which is awful.

Apple no longer makes a computer you want to buy.

No, does it really top out at 2.4GHz? WTF Apple?

From Apple's site:
2.6GHz 6‑core Intel Core i7, Turbo Boost up to 4.5GHz, with 12MB shared L3 cache
Configurable to 2.4GHz 8‑core Intel Core i9, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz, with 16MB shared L3 cache

2.3GHz 8‑core Intel Core i9, Turbo Boost up to 4.8GHz, with 16MB shared L3 cache
Configurable to 2.4GHz 8‑core Intel Core i9, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz, with 16MB shared L3 cache

That's not sustained. That's only single-core, and only in short bursts. It's the base figure you care about for heavy lifting.

Contrast that with, say, the 4790K in this years-old desktop, which has a base clock of 4GHz. That means that, as long as the cooling is adequate, it will maintain that clock speed no matter what. And Apple laptops are known for being very thermally limited, so even maintaining that 2.4GHz rate may be impossible. It seems very likely to me that this CPU, multiple generations old and with crippled I/O from the Spectre fixes, would probably do a better job than a current 16" MBP.

A good modern Ryzen 3 desktop would run rings around it, laughing.

Citizen86 wrote:
Natus wrote:

Speaking of Windows 10, the last step of my build requires Windows 10. Is this all I need?

There are some comments on the Amazon page that gamers got corrupted USB sticks. Is that really a thing?

You don't need to buy that. You can download the Windows installed directly from Microsoft and put it on your own USB stick.

As for activation, nothing will happen if you don't activate other than having the watermark on the bottom right of you screen. There are also OEM keys you can buy online for much cheaper

Also note there is a good chance you can activate it with a windows 7 key.

Malor wrote:

That's not sustained. That's only single-core, and only in short bursts. It's the base figure you care about for heavy lifting.

Contrast that with, say, the 4790K in this years-old desktop, which has a base clock of 4GHz. That means that, as long as the cooling is adequate, it will maintain that clock speed no matter what. And Apple laptops are known for being very thermally limited, so even maintaining that 2.4GHz rate may be impossible. It seems very likely to me that this CPU, multiple generations old and with crippled I/O from the Spectre fixes, would probably do a better job than a current 16" MBP.

A good modern Ryzen 3 desktop would run rings around it, laughing.

To be fair, Apple uses the same mobile CPUs everyone else does. So it's not a fair comparison to put them up against desktop CPUs if you require a laptop form factor.

Although the last gen or two were known for throttling pretty hard, the newest versions I think are doing pretty well.

There are reasonably priced ryzen 3 laptops out there...

Vargen: with so many use cases I think you need to be looking at desktop replacement/gaming laptops if you decide to go with something other than a Mac. I am a Mac fan myself, but their price to performance ratio is so out of line with just about every other brand that I just couldn't do it when I bought my laptop a few years back. I was able to get a faster CPU and 2x the RAM and HD capacity for the same price. Oh yes and when the battery crapped out I was able to replace it myself. Big plus there.

If you are adventurous you could try going the Hackintosh route. I have one I built back in 2011 that has been great until recently. It still runs like a champ but I have never been able to get anything newer than El Capitan to install on it. If I wasn't trying to save up money for a down payment on a house I would probably have already built a new one.

fangblackbone wrote:

There are reasonably priced ryzen 3 laptops out there...

Don't get me wrong. I really don't suggest anyone to get a Mac. However their newest 16" are a good step in the right direction for people who need/want a Macbook.

People who need a Mac for work, like developers generally know what they're getting into. I use Windows personally as WSL has gotten really good and allows me to have a Linux environment just like on Linux or OSX, along with Docker it's a pretty decent experience, so I feel no need to go back to Mac anytime soon.

Feel like most people are still getting Mac just because it's a lifestyle choice, or it's what they've always used and don't want to switch. Generally these people also have the disposable income for it. So yeah, whatever.

I use a 13" MacBook Pro for work and am happy with the balance of portability and power. I'd rather not be stuck with a wimpy netbook, a massive Dell-esque laptop, or a equally-expensive "gaming" laptop (that my employer wouldn't OK).

I use a Latitude 5480 for work, and it’s not massive. They have a whole series of different laptops for different needs. The old days of clunky, thick, heavy laptops are over (unless you’re in the military or have high end performance needs).

Math wrote:

I use a 13" MacBook Pro for work and am happy with the balance of portability and power. I'd rather not be stuck with a wimpy netbook, a massive Dell-esque laptop, or a equally-expensive "gaming" laptop (that my employer wouldn't OK).

Why you've picked those three options when there's a bunch of intermediate options between them I don't know. My work Windows box is a sleek Dell that's good for everything short of throwing massive datasets at MATLAB.

Yep, I've been pretty pleased with my Dell XPS 15. 6 core CPU, user replaceable ram, storage, and battery. And a GTX 1050 ti too

Haven't heard of a "netbook" since 2010

They're called Chromebooks now ;P

fangblackbone wrote:

They're called Chromebooks now ;P

Exactly. The damn things are everywhere.

I've yet to see one in the wild, but I live in Microsoft town...

So the Mac Pro can be pretty pricey.... I'm not even sure how 1.5TB (am I reading that right?) of RAM is possible...

24 64GB LRDIMMs, I would think. That's server territory. A good 8 processor server could do 6TB. Some do 8 TB with 8 32 core 5GHz (sustained per core) processors. And 8 threads per core.

That was for years my world, at work.

They use 12 128GB ECC DDR 4 Dimms.. they run at the cheapest $1200 a stick so the ram by itself is a huge chunk of the overall cost. For builders that level motherboard that can take the required Xeon processor and has 12 memory slots is around $2500.

It's kinda dumb though since unless you really need 1.5TB of ram its way cheaper to build your own AMD ThreadRipper 3 system for a fraction of the price... those can max out at 1TB of Ram and support ECC as well.

Math wrote:

So the Mac Pro can be pretty pricey.... I'm not even sure how 1.5TB (am I reading that right?) of RAM is possible...

Yeah, but the only way to get a black Apple mouse or trackpad appears to be ordering it with this machine. So really that's a bargain at any price.

Interesting that as the CPU options get more expensive the base clock speed drops. (Yes, I did notice the numbers of cores. It's still amusing.)

TheGameguru wrote:

It's kinda dumb though since unless you really need 1.5TB of ram its way cheaper to build your own AMD ThreadRipper 3 system for a fraction of the price... those can max out at 1TB of Ram and support ECC as well.

What's the estimated labor cost for converting a media project backlog to something that can be opened on said AMD system? When you're getting into legitimate needs for that kind of hardware then you're probably also concerned with those kinds of questions...

I've seen some snark about how it costs $400 to put wheels on the case. Personally, if I had to move something that heavy and expensive then I don't think I'd want to skimp on the wheels.

I've seen some snark about how it costs $400 to put wheels on the case. Personally, if I had to move something that heavy and expensive then I don't think I'd want to skimp on the wheels.

$5 per wheel would be more than adequate for that size/weight. Unless, of course, you plan to enter it in a roller derby.

I've never rolled a server more than about 100 feet in its entire service lifetime. Your mileage (hah!) may vary.

Vargen wrote:
Math wrote:

So the Mac Pro can be pretty pricey.... I'm not even sure how 1.5TB (am I reading that right?) of RAM is possible...

Yeah, but the only way to get a black Apple mouse or trackpad appears to be ordering it with this machine. So really that's a bargain at any price.

Interesting that as the CPU options get more expensive the base clock speed drops. (Yes, I did notice the numbers of cores. It's still amusing.)

TheGameguru wrote:

It's kinda dumb though since unless you really need 1.5TB of ram its way cheaper to build your own AMD ThreadRipper 3 system for a fraction of the price... those can max out at 1TB of Ram and support ECC as well.

What's the estimated labor cost for converting a media project backlog to something that can be opened on said AMD system? When you're getting into legitimate needs for that kind of hardware then you're probably also concerned with those kinds of questions...

I've seen some snark about how it costs $400 to put wheels on the case. Personally, if I had to move something that heavy and expensive then I don't think I'd want to skimp on the wheels.

No idea. Are there still proprietary software that’s locked to Mac? My buddy has a production company that has done lots of work over the years (look for his upcoming Sigma Sound documentary that he is wrapping up) and they switched from all Mac’s to Surface Studios and he couldn’t be happier.

But it’s a fair point as I know next to nothing about Macs other than I can build machines that run circles around them at a fraction of the cost.

Malor wrote:
I've seen some snark about how it costs $400 to put wheels on the case. Personally, if I had to move something that heavy and expensive then I don't think I'd want to skimp on the wheels.

$5 per wheel would be more than adequate for that size/weight. Unless, of course, you plan to enter it in a roller derby.

I've never rolled a server more than about 100 feet in its entire service lifetime. Your mileage (hah!) may vary.

My server is built in a CaseLabs Mercury S8 which is bigger and heavier than that Mac Pro and it is fine on the wheels that were a $15-20 add-on.

I have been saying it for years: I would really love to see Apple make a plain Mac again. Something between the Mac Mini and Mac Pro. Consumer grade processor (options for say i5, i7, i9), normal RAM, a normal PCIe port or two, a small to mid tower form factor, something that can be purchased in a low spec package and then upgraded later. The Mac Pro is designed for creative professionals... not for me. The Mac Mini is created for people who just need a simple little computer to surf the web... not for me (works great for my stepdad and mom though). The only middle ground is the iMac and I would rather provide my own screen and get something with better performance for the price. This is why I built a Hackintosh in 2011 and why I will probably build another one or just switch to Windows.

Yeah, that’s pretty much the same boat I’m in.

And I’m somebody who dropped $3500 on a Mac Pro in 2006 and consider that money well spent; I got a decade of full-time use out of it and another few years of it as a great video production machine. If I could spend $3500 on a modern-day equivalent that I could expect to get that kind of use out of then I probably would.

This new Mac Pro is not for me. It isn’t for a lot of full-time video professionals. When it was announced one of the Loading Ready Run folks said that they aren’t the target market for this, and they’re a video production company with several full-time employees. It’s for, I dunno, NBC or Disney.

TheGameguru wrote:

No idea. Are there still proprietary software that’s locked to Mac?

Final Cut Pro is still a huge favorite of some video editors.

Vargen wrote:

Yeah, that’s pretty much the same boat I’m in.

And I’m somebody who dropped $3500 on a Mac Pro in 2006 and consider that money well spent; I got a decade of full-time use out of it and another few years of it as a great video production machine. If I could spend $3500 on a modern-day equivalent that I could expect to get that kind of use out of then I probably would.

This new Mac Pro is not for me. It isn’t for a lot of full-time video professionals. When it was announced one of the Loading Ready Run folks said that they aren’t the target market for this, and they’re a video production company with several full-time employees. It’s for, I dunno, NBC or Disney.

Or Pixar or anyone else at a huge company like that with an existing Mac based workflow. That is my biggest issue with moving to Windows right now. I have a workflows I am used to on my Mac with some Mac only apps and some automation via AppleScript and GUI scripting and CLI tools. Plus I am still running an older version of Adobe Creative Suite so I would need to look into upgrading/replacing that (though that might be an issue on a newer version of macOS as well).

Just curious, if it works for video editing now, then why the need to upgrade? Keep the old Mac Pro to edit and then buy a new and more sensible (windows) laptop...

Also LTT to the rescue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATnp...