[News] Trump, Russia, and the 2016 Election

All news related to Donald Trump's alleged ties to Russia and to the Russian interference in the 2016 Presidential election. New details should be cited to reputable sources.

garion333 wrote:

Trump, unfortunately, gets credit for ending Isis.

He's about to lose that one.

absurddoctor wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Trump, unfortunately, gets credit for ending Isis.

He's about to lose that one.

that's just cuz he wants to beat em again!

So maybe the real question should have been whether or not there has been anything "decent" that Trump has *intentionally* done.

bekkilyn wrote:

*Turning people against religion as they see the hypocrisy of evangelical support for him. (I'd need to see more sources for the truth of this one, but I would modify by replacing the generic "religion" with something more specific such as conservative Christian fundamentalism/evangelicism, prosperity gospel, etc.)

I don't know about turning people against religion in general, but I can say that I left an evangelical congregation after they revealed that racism and anti-immigrant sentiment was more import to them than Christ.

tweeder459 wrote:

In the past couple of years I have become more attentive to the political scene, and while I do find myself leaning more toward conservative ideas, I respect the opinions of others. I've tried not to post anything that is patently false and I've chosen not to engage with others who choose to 'drag' rather than make counterpoints.

However, I can see that the info-bubble here is extremely strong and no amount of debating is going to get folks to view anything i say, or post, as anything other than incendiary. It's true what has been said; everyone is watching the same movie, but people are perceiving two different stories.

You must understand that the folks who post in this thread are extremely well read and well informed about Trump and his cronies. It’s my opinion, based on your posts, that your only sources of knowledge about Trump are extreme right-wing media outlets. I would suggest that you look at what some of the more neutral leaning media outlets are saying about Trump. Especially in regards to the current impeachment inquiry. If your only exposure to a political issue comes from an extremely biased point of view then you are not going to get the full perspective on the topic.

Something else that can be confusing is that some big and wide reaching media outlets have a hidden agenda. They tell lies to promote their hidden agenda. You may end up in a situation where you’re reading two news stories about the same issue that are completely contradicting each other. They can’t both be telling the truth. They could both be lying, but that’s unlikely. How are you to know which one is factual? It’s on you to figure that out, and it’s not easy. Tracing back sources and vetting information takes time and energy. The media outlets who are pushing a hidden agenda are hoping that you will just take the easy path and believe their lies. If you want the truth, you will have to work hard to find it.

tweeder459 wrote:

everyone is watching the same movie, but people are perceiving two different stories.

This analogy doesn’t ring true. This is nothing like a movie. And even if it was, everyone is NOT watching the same one. Politics are infinitely more complicated than a movie.

You have to ask yourself, “Do I want the truth?” If you answer yes to this then you have a long road ahead of you.

garion333 wrote:

Trump, unfortunately, gets credit for ending Isis.

Uh, that might have been true if he hadn't just pulled out of Syria.

Mattis: ISIS will surge back after Trump's Syria withdrawal

"You can pull your troops out, as President [Barack] Obama learned the hard way, out of Iraq, but the 'enemy gets the vote,' as we say in the military. And in this case, if we don't keep the pressure on them, ISIS will resurge. It's — it's absolutely a given that they will come back," Mattis continued.
Quintin_Stone wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Trump, unfortunately, gets credit for ending Isis.

Uh, that might have been true if he hadn't just pulled out of Syria.

Mattis: ISIS will surge back after Trump's Syria withdrawal

"You can pull your troops out, as President [Barack] Obama learned the hard way, out of Iraq, but the 'enemy gets the vote,' as we say in the military. And in this case, if we don't keep the pressure on them, ISIS will resurge. It's — it's absolutely a given that they will come back," Mattis continued.

They'll be Isis 2.0, not the "real" Isis. He can still go around claiming he defeated Isis while 2.0 blows up some more brown skinned folks and maybe some lighter skinned folks up in Europe, but who cares about Europe anyway?

RawkGWJ wrote:
tweeder459 wrote:

In the past couple of years I have become more attentive to the political scene, and while I do find myself leaning more toward conservative ideas, I respect the opinions of others. I've tried not to post anything that is patently false and I've chosen not to engage with others who choose to 'drag' rather than make counterpoints.

However, I can see that the info-bubble here is extremely strong and no amount of debating is going to get folks to view anything i say, or post, as anything other than incendiary. It's true what has been said; everyone is watching the same movie, but people are perceiving two different stories.

You must understand that the folks who post in this thread are extremely well read and well informed about Trump and his cronies. It’s my opinion, based on your posts, that your only sources of knowledge about Trump are extreme right-wing media outlets. I would suggest that you look at what some of the more neutral leaning media outlets are saying about Trump. Especially in regards to the current impeachment inquiry. If your only exposure to a political issue comes from an extremely biased point of view then you are not going to get the full perspective on the topic.

Something else that can be confusing is that some big and wide reaching media outlets have a hidden agenda. They tell lies to promote their hidden agenda. You may end up in a situation where you’re reading two news stories about the same issue that are completely contradicting each other. They can’t both be telling the truth. They could both be lying, but that’s unlikely. How are you to know which one is factual? It’s on you to figure that out, and it’s not easy. Tracing back sources and vetting information takes time and energy. The media outlets who are pushing a hidden agenda are hoping that you will just take the easy path and believe their lies. If you want the truth, you will have to work hard to find it.

tweeder459 wrote:

everyone is watching the same movie, but people are perceiving two different stories.


This analogy doesn’t ring true. This is nothing like a movie. And even if it was, everyone is NOT watching the same one. Politics are infinitely more complicated than a movie.

You have to ask yourself, “Do I want the truth?” If you answer yes to this then you have a long road ahead of you.

Indeed. Nor are we simply consumers of a manufactured product as movie viewers are in this analogy.

We are directly impacted by the actions of this administration. The systematic and increasingly delitirious effects of Trump's reckless, ill-conceived, childlike, stupid, ignorant, and petty decisions will echo for decades in wholly negative ways.

With one incredibly short-sighted decision, he may have dramatically destroyed the balance of power in the Mideast.

In one day:

The Kurds are now allied with Syria and Russia against an aggressor NATO power.

And also:

A tens-of-thousands strong fighting force of religious fanatics are poised to immediately resume operations world wide.

We have had nearly 4 years of this chuckle f*ck.

I am supposed to suddenly give a sh*t about Joe Biden's kid being tangentially related to some possible conflict of interest when THE ACTUAL PRESIDENT'S lawyer was documented associating with known foreign agents hours before they attempted to flee THIS COUNTRY to avoid prosecution?

f*ck. That.

I am maybe one of the most conservative guys on this board and by any measurable standard of the day I am center left or left because I still believe that:

A strong United States is good.
National security, while often unpleasant, is important.
Government should not intrude on people's lives.
Fiscal responsibility on a personal and societal level is important.

The Republican party no longer believes or practices ANY of these things.

It is not a subjective interpretation of a manufactured art piece on my part. It is not a difference of opinion.

Nor is the burden on my part to prove any of these things.

As... OG... as OG can be, his posts are more often than not representative of the level of discourse that this forum is capable of. We don't often get there but we do try.

(Not me so much. I mostly take my cheap shots at the Grudens and call it a day.)

bekkilyn wrote:

So far, my list of "decent" things that Trump has done includes:
...

*Turning people against religion as they see the hypocrisy of evangelical support for him. (I'd need to see more sources for the truth of this one, but I would modify by replacing the generic "religion" with something more specific such as conservative Christian fundamentalism/evangelicism, prosperity gospel, etc.)

I think you could add to this that he's fundamentally broken the consensus in American politics across a large number of axes.

- American intervention overseas is no longer a given politically. He's still intervened overseas. Notably he's sending troops to Saudi f*cking Arabia and bragging about how America is being paid for it, as if they're mercenaries. But overall he's shown how busted and corrupt the military-industrial complex is. It may change forever post-Trump.

Someone like Sanders couldn't run as anti-interventionist in 2016 and hope to get a large chunk of of the electorate supporting them. Trump has destroyed the previous consensus and we should be glad about that.

- As BlackSheep said he's exposed the Republican Party for what it is and possibly accelerated its demise, which would be good for the country and the planet long term.

- He's shown how corrupt the elite wealthy are in this country. First by example. Second in how they fall behind him for the sake of tax cuts. Everyone wants their head on a pike now, which may open the door for true left wing politics in America.

Overall as much as I detest him and want him to go away his ability to puncture bullsh*t has put a lot of sacred cows on the chopping block across the political spectrum.

I still don't think that's worth the damage it's done to LGBTQ folks or people of color. I don't think it's worth the activation of outright white supremacy in this country. But if we're counting moral victories, that's my list.

garion333 wrote:

Trump, unfortunately, gets credit for ending Isis.

Not after the last week abandoning the Kurds.

DSGamer wrote:
bekkilyn wrote:

So far, my list of "decent" things that Trump has done includes:
...

*Turning people against religion as they see the hypocrisy of evangelical support for him. (I'd need to see more sources for the truth of this one, but I would modify by replacing the generic "religion" with something more specific such as conservative Christian fundamentalism/evangelicism, prosperity gospel, etc.)

I think you could add to this that he's fundamentally broken the consensus in American politics across a large number of axes.

- American intervention overseas is no longer a given politically. He's still intervened overseas. Notably he's sending troops to Saudi f*cking Arabia and bragging about how America is being paid for it, as if they're mercenaries. But overall he's shown how busted and corrupt the military-industrial complex is. It may change forever post-Trump.

Someone like Sanders couldn't run as anti-interventionist in 2016 and hope to get a large chunk of of the electorate supporting them. Trump has destroyed the previous consensus and we should be glad about that.

- As BlackSheep said he's exposed the Republican Party for what it is and possibly accelerated its demise, which would be good for the country and the planet long term.

- He's shown how corrupt the elite wealthy are in this country. First by example. Second in how they fall behind him for the sake of tax cuts. Everyone wants their head on a pike now, which may open the door for true left wing politics in America.

Overall as much as I detest him and want him to go away his ability to puncture bullsh*t has put a lot of sacred cows on the chopping block across the political spectrum.

I still don't think that's worth the damage it's done to LGBTQ folks or people of color. I don't think it's worth the activation of outright white supremacy in this country. But if we're counting moral victories, that's my list.

Trump is the God Emperor.

To his supporters, the one from the Warhammer 40K universe.

To everyone else, the one from the Dune universe.

cheeze_pavilion wrote:

Trump is the God Emperor.

To his supporters, the one from the Warhammer 40K universe.

To everyone else, the one from the Dune universe.

You might need to re-read the Dune books. Leto II saves the entire human race, dude. That's the entire point of the Golden Path.

Jonman wrote:
cheeze_pavilion wrote:

Trump is the God Emperor.

To his supporters, the one from the Warhammer 40K universe.

To everyone else, the one from the Dune universe.

You might need to re-read the Dune books. Leto II saves the entire human race, dude. That's the entire point of the Golden Path.

Heh, check the conversation I was quoting. With the difference that Leto II was doing what he was doing intentionally and according to plan, and Trump is doing it inadvertently and totally contrary to plan.

It's a Golden Path, that's for sure.

Potentially a golden shower path...

Reaper81 wrote:
RawkGWJ wrote:
tweeder459 wrote:

stuff

More stuff

even more stuff

~mod~

Enough. He very clearly stated he won't return, and I'm holding him to it. Any further responses on any of your parts will be treated as baiting. You've had your time to crow. Any further responses to this incident will be deleted without warning. Move on.

bekkilyn wrote:

*Turning people against religion as they see the hypocrisy of evangelical support for him. (I'd need to see more sources for the truth of this one, but I would modify by replacing the generic "religion" with something more specific such as conservative Christian fundamentalism/evangelicism, prosperity gospel, etc.)

There's some evidence that evangelical support of the Republican party is one of the drivers in the rise of Americans who identify as being nonreligious. The caveats are that the decrease in religious affiliation is mostly occurring amongst people who are liberal not conservative. They also may not have been as strongly religious in the first place in terms of things like regularly attending church services.

That said, most of the polling in that article pertains to trends that were going on before Trump. But I cannot possibly imagine that Trump's presidency would not accelerate the process. I particularly envision a lot of high school and college age people who are more open to different beliefs and whose identities are not fully calcified like their older relatives. They're watching what's going on with Trump and the blatant hypocrisy of his supporters and it will have a major impact on their long-term identity going forward. I wouldn't be surprised if there's going to be a modest dip in overall religious affiliation amongst adults who were teenagers during the Trump years. This won't be evident now though since polls usually don't collect data on minors.

garion333 wrote:

Trump, unfortunately, gets credit for ending Isis.

Is that why he is trying to start it up again? So can get double points for ending it again (as if he knows how to end in the first place.)

Bruce wrote:
garion333 wrote:

Trump, unfortunately, gets credit for ending Isis.

Is that why he is trying to start it up again? So can get double points for ending it again (as if he knows how to end in the first place.)

Trump doesn't like to do new things. That's why he wants to campaign in 2020 on all the same things he campaigned on in 2016. Namely, Hillary and ISIS.

Indicted Giuliani associate pictured with Gov. Ron DeSantis at Orlando election party

Orlando Sentinel wrote:

A photo and video emerged Monday of Gov. Ron DeSantis with Lev Parnas, one of the two Soviet-born businessmen arrested last week on charges of funneling foreign cash into U.S. elections, at DeSantis’ election night victory party in Orlando last year.

The images come as the governor’s office echoed its statements from last week that DeSantis had never met “one-on-one” with Parnas despite the $50,000 he and Igor Fruman, both South Florida residents, donated to the Friends of Ron DeSantis political committee in June 2018 via the company Global Energy Producers. Both are associates of President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani.

Parnas was also listed as a member of the steering committee for a July 2018 fundraiser for DeSantis held at the Alaqua Country Club in Seminole County. Fellow committee members, however, said they have no memory of Parnas and aren’t sure he attended.

A Tampa Bay Times photo taken Nov. 6 at the Rosen Center in Orlando showed DeSantis face to face with Parnas during his victory celebration.

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EG3rukHWwAAzUW9?format=jpg&name=900x900)

...

Last week, Helen Ferré, a DeSantis spokeswoman, said in an email that DeSantis directed the PAC to return the $50,000 from Parnas and Fruman to the federal government.

Ferré also said DeSantis may have attended large campaign events with Parnas and Fruman, but he has not had any personal meetings with them to her knowledge.

Asked Monday to comment on the photo and video, she wrote, “Parnas attended many Republican campaign events and Governor DeSantis’ election night event was open to the public. Governor DeSantis has not met one-on-one nor spoken to Parnas since taking office."

...

A federal indictment released Thursday accused Parnas and Fruman of scheming to circumvent campaign finance law to influence candidates for state and federal office.

While the indictment doesn’t specifically mention DeSantis or other Florida candidates, records showed Fruman also contributed $25,000 to a political committee affiliated with DeSantis’s GOP primary candidate, former agriculture commissioner Adam Putnam, as well as $20,400 to Sen. Rick Scott’s campaign and victory fund and $2,400 to Republican Congressman Brian Mast.

Mast said last week he would return the money, and Scott followed suit on Monday.

Parnas was also listed as one of nine members of the “Donald J. Trump Jr. Executive Steering Committee” for a DeSantis fundraiser held in Alaqua on July 18, 2018. The president’s son, who was later pictured with Parnas in a Facebook post in May, was scheduled to appear that night along with Fox News Host Jeanine Pirro.

So what do you think the odds are that Parnas and Fruman donated clean, non-foreign money to DeSantis's campaign (as well as the other campaigns)?

While he was a US Representative DeSantis made a name for himself by repeatedly attacking Mueller and his investigation, going so far as backing legislation that would cut off the Special Counsel investigation's budget if it strayed beyond Trump's campaign. In January 2018 he voted with other Republicans to release a classified memo authored by Republicans on the committee which purported to show that the FBI abused its surveillance powers in the Russia investigation. In April 2018 he called for the FBI to investigate everyone involved in the investigation of Russia's interference in the 2016 election, including former FBI director James Comey, former acting director of the FBI Andrew McCabe, FBI agent Peter Strzok, and FBI counsel Lisa Page.

DeSantis won Florida's Governor's House by just 32,000 votes.

It's looking like our favorite Ukrainian oligarch had his US law firm manufacture dirt about Biden because he wanted to use Giuliani's Trump administration contacts to help make his legal problems go away.

So now we have evidence that an indicted criminal used his money and connections to manufacture evidence that Biden got a Ukrainian prosecutor fired and did so specifically because Giuliani--who was working directly at the behest of Trump on this matter--wanted the dirt and he wanted Giuliani's help.

Giuliani being Giuliani he waved the bullsh*t evidence around on cable news after a couple of drinks and now there's no way in hell Firtash is going to get the DOJ to go easy on him.

The other ridiculous part of this article is everyone involved claiming they don't know and haven't worked with each other when that's patently not the case. They're all thick as thieves.

To Win Giuliani’s Help, Oligarch’s Allies Pursued Biden Dirt

Bloomberg wrote:

Associates of a Ukrainian oligarch fighting extradition to the U.S. were working to dig up dirt on former Vice President Joe Biden last summer in an effort to get Rudy Giuliani’s help in the oligarch’s legal case, according to three people familiar with the exchanges.

Dmitry Firtash, charged with conspiracy by the U.S. and living in Vienna, shuffled lawyers in July to add Joe diGenova and Victoria Toensing, vocal supporters of President Donald Trump who had worked with Giuliani. Around that time, some of Firtash’s associates began to use his broad network of Ukraine contacts to get damaging information on Biden, the people said.

DiGenova and Toensing have billed Firtash about $1 million for their work, one of the people said. That includes costs for Lev Parnas, a Giuliani associate, as a translator and important contact, the person said. Parnas was arrested last week along with several associates and accused of conspiring to violate campaign-finance laws.

People working on Firtash’s behalf collected a witness statement from Viktor Shokin, a former Ukrainian prosecutor-general. The statement, dated early September, helped Giuliani renew an assertion that he’d been advancing for months -- that Biden had tried in 2016 to sway Ukrainian politics to help his son. U.S. and Ukrainian officials have disputed Shokin’s account.

Shokin, though, had been promised his statement wouldn’t be made public, according to the people. Giuliani went on to cite it repeatedly, waving it around on cable news as evidence of Biden’s alleged corruption. The Hill and other media outlets provided links to it, with Giuliani later suggesting he had a role in making it public. “This is the affidavit I put out,” he said during a Fox News interview this month.

As a result of the publicity Giuliani generated with Shokin’s statement, two of the people said they believe the odds of the Justice Department dropping the case against Firtash have plummeted, because it would look like a quid pro quo. Others connected to the case agreed.

...

If indeed Firtash’s camp aided the Trump political machine, that could be a problem. American politicians cannot accept foreign campaign contributions, and as Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation has laid out, even non-monetary assistance can have a value.

In a statement from his spokesman, Firtash denied having contact with Giuliani.

When asked about the matter, Giuliani has said he has “nothing to do with Firtash.” He didn’t respond to requests for comment about this article.

Toensing and diGenova, a husband-and-wife law team, declined to comment through a spokesman. The Justice Department also declined to comment.

...

On a separate track, his U.S. legal team continues to challenge the case’s legitimacy. By last summer, Firtash decided he needed reinforcements. In July, he parted ways with Lanny Davis, a longtime ally of Bill and Hillary Clinton, both Democrats. Within Firtash’s circle, those ties weren’t considered helpful in dealing with Trump’s Justice Department, according to the people.

Tapping pro-Trump lawyers like diGenova and Toensing looked like a useful way to help get his case thrown out, the people said. The legal duo had considered representing Trump during the Mueller probe into Russian interference in the 2016 election. DiGenova has appeared on Fox News attacking Mueller’s investigation.

In late September, Fox News reported that the pair was with working “off the books” with Giuliani to dig up dirt on the Bidens in Ukraine. That mission was shared by Parnas and Igor Fruman, associates of Giuliani who helped set up meetings with Ukrainian officials. Along with Parnas, Fruman was arrested last week and charged with campaign finance violations. Both men had one-way tickets to Vienna. Giuliani also had a trip scheduled to Vienna.

Efforts have already been made to shield some of the work by Parnas and Fruman. The pair assisted DiGenova and Toensing in their law practice, according to John Dowd, a former Trump lawyer now representing them. In a letter to lawmakers, Dowd also wrote that Parnas and Fruman assisted Giuliani in his legal work for Trump, arguing that the two should be protected under attorney-client privilege rules.

Toensing has said her firm hired Parnas as a paid translator, though people familiar with Firtash’s business say he has plenty of translators and key aides who speak fluent English.

A spokesman for Firtash said he had no contractual or other commercial relationship with Parnas or Fruman.

There was one additional connection that DiGenova and Toensing had that people in the Firtash camp considered potentially useful, according to one of the people. Their son Brady Toensing, the former head of the Vermont Republican Party, had joined the Justice Department as senior counsel in its Office of Legal Policy in June. In that position, Brady Toensing has no connection to the Firtash case.

DOJ inquiry into 2016 election becomes criminal investigation:

An inquiry that Attorney General William Barr ordered into the origins of the probe into possible ties between the 2016 Trump campaign and Russia has now become a criminal investigation, a source familiar with the matter told POLITICO on Thursday.

The investigation, being conducted by the U.S. attorney for Connecticut, John Durham, was launched as an effort by Barr to answer unspecified questions he had about why the FBI began the counterintelligence investigation that eventually led to the appointment of special counsel Robert Mueller.

However, escalating Barr’s inquiry from a management review to a criminal matter means current and former FBI and Justice Department officials face the possibility of criminal charges arising from some aspect of their work on the Russia investigation.

The designation of Durham’s inquiry as a criminal investigation also vastly increases his power to gather information, opening up the possibility of grand jury subpoenas for records and testimony.

This country sucks

Rat Boy wrote:

DOJ inquiry into 2016 election becomes criminal investigation:

An inquiry that Attorney General William Barr ordered into the origins of the probe into possible ties between the 2016 Trump campaign and Russia has now become a criminal investigation, a source familiar with the matter told POLITICO on Thursday.

The investigation, being conducted by the U.S. attorney for Connecticut, John Durham, was launched as an effort by Barr to answer unspecified questions he had about why the FBI began the counterintelligence investigation that eventually led to the appointment of special counsel Robert Mueller.

However, escalating Barr’s inquiry from a management review to a criminal matter means current and former FBI and Justice Department officials face the possibility of criminal charges arising from some aspect of their work on the Russia investigation.

The designation of Durham’s inquiry as a criminal investigation also vastly increases his power to gather information, opening up the possibility of grand jury subpoenas for records and testimony.

How hard will current FBI actually go after their current and former members caught up in this circus? If a Democrat wins the presidency, this corruption and those bad actors all need to be addressed. Burying this type of behavior And moving ‘forward’ is well past that sell by date. Dragging Barr, a large cross section of this administration in front of the courts is completely necessary. Heck, you can certainly send a few to The Hague to stand trial for the debacle at the border.

Crying about a witch hunt being unfair whilst flying on a broom, turning people into toads and having a pointy black hat is just getting fking old

They’re just going to criming until they get the sanctions removed and/or we’re no longer a democracy.

Lol

IMAGE(https://media1.tenor.com/images/72d08dc3085dc95e7136d7b496974dd5/tenor.gif?itemid=8449894)

If you’ve ever been unlucky enough to get RT on your cable, that should have been familiar. That was basically an RT segment.

For some reason Tulsi Gabbard, a Democrat, thinks the most pressing issue is Hillary Clinton.

Meanwhile she just happens to share almost all the same opinions as Hannity and Trump.

I hadn’t really been paying attention because she’s barely a candidate but apparently her and Hillary have been having a twitter beef or something the last couple weeks.

Hillary commented that in her opinion the Republicans were grooming someone for a 3rd party run. The NYTimes misreported* that she said The Russians were doing so. In neither version was she quoted as naming anyone, so of course Gabbard immediately goes on Twitter and attacks Hillary for attacking HER, specifically. Though in the act of proving Hillary right Gabbard did use the phrase “Queen of Warmongers” which would make either an excellent metal band, or a fantastic Destiny 2 expansion.

*And didn’t correct it for nine days, because of course.

Both are irrelevant to the current presidential race and need to just shut up because they are distractions to something vital going on in this country.

BTW in the clip of Clinton she did say "her" so that narrows it down to Harris, Klobuchar, Warren and Gabbard... So thanks Hill!