[Discussion] Presidential impeachment: the good, the bad, the orange

Formal impeachment proceedings were started today. Discuss.

pretty certain Trump would try to order martial law and get all those treasonous members of congress arrested before even the faintest glimmer of the word “resign” crossed his decaying mind.

Also, assuming this has anything to do with Russia again he’s not just going to say, “Oh well, you got me”.

A quick recap on recent Ukraine / Russia / US events

———

- Ukraine was set to join NATO in 2010 when Russia corrupted *their* election to keep NATO off their doorstep.

- Ukraine and NATO put a halt to their membership after that

- In 2014 Russia annexed Crimea illegally

- In 2014 Russia also sent troops into Eastern Ukraine to try and foment a civil war

- The US and its allies pushed back and sanctioned Russian oligarchs who run the government

- Russia attacks the US election starting in 2015

- Trump wins in 2016

- Trump goes back to Ukraine to ask for election meddling again from a nation in that region

Russia considers Ukraine part of Russia. That’s why they try to get everyone to call it “The Ukraine”. As in, “The Ukraine region of Russia”.

Putin specifically talks frequently about Ukraine, laying claim to it by referring to large chunks of it as
Новоросія (Novorussya) or “New Russia”.

The US is in the middle of Russian corruption. Trump is at the heart of that corruption. That’s why the successful obstruction of justice matters. It’s not a political scandal, it’s a national security matter. It has been from the beginning.

He will never resign.

Rat Boy wrote:
Stele wrote:

I kind of hope he resigns, Pence pardons him for federal crimes, and then in 2021 the state of NY locks him up and throws away the key.

That. While no president has been removed from office due to a conviction over articles of impeachment, one got talked into leaving over the specter of conviction. And don't underestimate Mitch McConnell. He may come to believe that ousting Trump in favor of a President Pence running in 2020 is their best chance of retaining the White House.

Yeah, this is how I see it going down.

Mitch wouldn't lose a second of sleep over Trump going down. But Pence? That's a different matter. If Pence goes down, we have a President Pelosi (woot lady prez!), and Mitch ain't gonna lie down for that.

The second the jeopardy spreads to Pence, sh*t is gonna get real for the GOP. Trump's expendable - but the presidency isn't.

And Trump will resign in a heartbeat if comes down to a pardon-resignation or impeachment/jail time. A normal human would ensure that his kids also get pardons - it'll be interesting to see if that's a factor.....

Trump is all about appearance, though. He’s wealthy and powerful enough that jail time likely isn’t on the table and he can always cast impeachment as a Deep State plot against him that he’ll be able to spin to his benefit. Resignation is admittance of personal failure, though, which runs completely counter to how he operates. He will drag this country into a new civil war before he admits failure.
I mean, I would LOOOOVE to be wrong, but resigning is a choice a “normal” person in his situation would take and I just don’t see how it would square with how he operates with the mythology he’s built around himself.
If it does come to impeachment the obvious course I see happening is that he’ll throw everyone under the bus, family included, then build the media outlet he had been planning to start back in 2016 and spend the rest of his days as an even more incoherent Alex Jones.

ruhk wrote:

Trump is all about appearance, though. He’s wealthy and powerful enough that jail time likely isn’t on the table and he can always cast impeachment as a Deep State plot against him that he’ll be able to spin to his benefit. Resignation is admittance of personal failure, though, which runs completely counter to how he operates. He will drag this country into a new civil war before he admits failure.
I mean, I would LOOOOVE to be wrong, but resigning is a choice a “normal” person in his situation would take and I just don’t see how it would square with how he operates with the mythology he’s built around himself.
If it does come to impeachment the obvious course I see happening is that he’ll throw everyone under the bus, family included, then build the media outlet he had been planning to start back in 2016 and spend the rest of his days as an even more incoherent Alex Jones.

Nah.

The pardon's the thing of value here.

He knows he's f*cked once he's out of office, pretty much regardless of how he exits that office. Resignation is admittance of being entirely f*cked, which he is, and I don't think even he is dumb enough to not realize how much his chickens are going to need a roost.

The only way forward post-presidency is getting pardoned for the myriad crimes that several states' Attorneys General are poised to indict come January 2021. Toss in pardons for his family, and he's out with a cheery wave, a swollen wallet and a "go f*ck yourselves" bird flipped over the shoulder.

They plan to keep criming. Even while impeachment has begun.

IMAGE(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFR-rRJXYAADEg3?format=png&name=medium)

Complicating factors: Pence may be implicated in this.

CNN: Inside the tangled web of Trump officials and Ukraine's Zelensky

New York (CNN)Vice President Mike Pence was not supposed to be in Poland.

Nevertheless, on September 1, there he was, leaning over a vase of white flowers to listen as the Ukrainian President vowed to "beat corruption" and enact new reforms.

Pence was filling in for his boss, President Donald Trump, who days earlier scrapped his trip to Warsaw -- and with it, his first planned meeting with the new Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelensky -- to monitor a hurricane bearing down on the southeastern coast.

Now, Pence finds himself among the numerous administration officials thrust into the middle of another controversy involving the President and foreign political influence, a familiar but uncomfortable predicament for many of Trump's associates as they near the three-year-mark of a scandal-plagued presidency.

Can’t imagine this will lead anywhere, sadly. Hopefully it does not hurt Dem’s in 2020.

Cautiously optimistic...

One thing I have been reflecting on the past day or so is that Trump has two very predictable qualities.

The first is that he has no control over his impulsive reactivity. He just blurts out about whatever is in front of him.

The second is that he is a profound coward. Iran has figured that out and they know he backs down in every fight with a potential bad outcome. He wants attention and power but not the responsibility or accountability that comes with it.

He could say something really stupid with the right bait and then resign in a panic if he believes that is what gets him out of a jam.

A Pence presidency is a strong win for the Republicans in this impeachment scenario.

Should be an interesting day.

I'm in the cautiously optimistic camp. If I have learned anything over the past few years it's that nothing makes sense anymore.

EverythingsTentative wrote:

I'm in the cautiously optimistic camp. If I have learned anything over the past few years it's that nothing makes sense anymore.

That's by design.

tag to follow.

cautiotiously optimistic, especially considering the PEnce implications and that the lead up to this involved using trained attorneys to question witnesses instead of 5-minute periods with legislators.

One should not call what was released today a transcript, but...

Trump then asked Zelensky to do a “favor” and investigate the “whole situation in Ukraine.” Trump vague references to CrowdStrike, the company hired to investigate the hack of the Democratic National Committee during the 2016 election, and former special counsel Robert Mueller.

When Zelensky agreed, Trump then brought up what he referred to as the “other thing,” saying that “it “would be great” if Zelensky could also look into unsubstantiated allegations against Biden — that he used his position to influence an investigation in Ukraine into his son Hunter.

“There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great,” Trump said on the call, appearing to refer to US Attorney General Bill Barr. “Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.”

Trump and his personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, have argued that Biden tried to use his influence as vice president to sideline an investigation into a Ukrainian company where his son served as a board member, but they have offered no evidence to back up the claim.

When you continue to plead your innocence by admitting your guilt.

WSJ wrote:

The president on the call raised a discredited claim that his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, has been pressing for months: that Mr. Biden as vice president called for the ouster of Ukraine’s prosecutor general to protect his son, Hunter, who sat on the board of a company whose owner the prosecutor had investigated. The prosecutor was the target of widespread criticism from the U.S. and other countries and had in fact hampered the investigation into the younger Mr. Biden’s company, Burisma Group. Ukraine’s prosecutor general in May said he had no evidence of wrongdoing by Mr. Biden or his son.

Even the WSJ is plainly saying the claim in re Biden and Ukraine is discredited.

Jesus. He doesn't say "we're withholding money until you investigate" but otherwise yeah. Asking Ukraine for help to dig up dirt on Biden.

Of course he admitted that on the Stephanopoulos interview a few months back, that he didn't see anything wrong with asking other countries for help. Idiot.

Imagine instead of saying "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" Bill Clinton instead said "Here's a sex tape!" That's kind of what this looks like.

Of course.. because they will simply say nothing is wrong about that.. no crime! no collusion! Of course they edited out the part where he told them he was withholding aid until they did so.

They put a disclaimer on the “transcript.”

IMAGE(https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/digital-images/org/4e842bbe-9305-4b2a-8721-b66e2055ad50.png)

Stupid Watergate is f*cking exhausting.

SallyNasty wrote:

Stupid Watergate is f*cking exhausting.

Seriously. At some point wouldn’t Americans be willing to throw Trump overboard so they can stop hearing about Russia and Ukraine. Just to hear something else. Commit crimes somewhere else at the very least.

SallyNasty wrote:

Stupid Watergate is f*cking exhausting.

Lemon, it's Wednesday.

DSGamer wrote:
SallyNasty wrote:

Stupid Watergate is f*cking exhausting.

Seriously. At some point wouldn’t Americans be willing to throw Trump overboard so they can stop hearing about Russia and Ukraine. Just to hear something else. Commit crimes somewhere else at the very least.

Trump hasn't realized yet that his greatest weakness is his own base. Once they get bored of him, it's over. He's conflating approval rating and popularity with interest.

You get one "Mooch" type character in an open Republican Primary and watch how fast they turn on him.

The American political base is so treacherous, lazy, superficial, and paranoid that a good looking, slightly crazier version of Trump out-Trumps Trump.

Bahahahahahahahaha!

TL;DR - The White House emailed its own talking points on impeachment to the House Democrats.

Reaper81 wrote:

Bahahahahahahahaha!

TL;DR - The White House emailed its own talking points on impeachment to the House Democrats.

Haven't they run out of feet to shoot yet?

Even more amusing, they tried to recall the email, a move that never backfires.

Reaper81 wrote:

You get one "Mooch" type character in an open Republican Primary and watch how fast they turn on him.

Why do you think they're already refusing to have primaries for next year?