Goodjers Talking About Insomnia

There was some discussion of insomnia in the Loathe thread and it was suggested that insomnia should have its own thread. So let’s talk about insomnia.

I have occasional insomnia. Nothing major but enough of a problem to disrupt my life. My main way to deal with it is through meditation. At its worst, I’ve laid in bed for six straight hours just meditating but never sleeping. I actually felt ok the next day, which really surprised me.

A short-ish history

People who have followed my story in the anxiety thread or the depression thread or my thread about moving overseas already know a bit about my situation, so I'll try to do a short (for me) version.

I had really bad sleep hygiene as a child. My parents had televisions with cable (pirated Cinemax, HBO, everything) going back to when we were little kids. I had an Atari, later an NES in my bedroom from age 7 on with essentially unlimited access.

I basically slept when I wanted and as little as I liked, so I developed some really bad habits. So basically as I've gotten better at managing my insomnia a lot of my success has come from developing good habits and taking care of myself.

After college I entered the workforce and I would frequently get obsessed with a video game or a programming problem and pull all-nighters to try to get stuff done. I basically couldn't put the problem down until it was solved. This led to me doubling down on my bad habits. On top of that around this time I realized I had developed sleep apnea.

My insomnia is co-morbid with this obsessiveness, something that's become easier to manage over the years through therapy and meditation. Additionally I struggle with anxiety and panic attacks. That caused me to go on medication for a long time following a really tough stretch where I didn't sleep for 5 straight days.

I've had a couple other bouts of extreme insomnia where I either didn't sleep or only dozed an hour on a couple of nights. I had bouts of 7 days one time and 10 days on two separate occasions.

That's as short as I can make it. Sorry.

Stuff that helps me

- At night I sleep with SleepPhones plugged into an old iPhone.

- On that I either listen to guided meditations as I fall asleep, ASMR, or ambient music like Moby's Long Ambients.

- Cannabis that's high in CBD with trace amounts of THC helps me fall asleep the second part of the night after I've woken up briefly in the night.

- I try to practice good sleep hygiene. We haven't had a TV in our room for 18 years. We turn devices off before bed time as much as possible. Try to eat well before bed. I don't use our bed for much else and I try to wind down in a different room so I don't associate my bed with sleeplessness. I get up after 30 minutes if I don't fall asleep.

- I get up at the same time each day and try to wind down at the same time each day. The more I make my schedule a habit the sleep seems to follow. If I start to get off schedule things get worse.

- All possible devices go in night mode where blue light is turned down. No idea if this helps, but I try everything that makes sense.

- At a certain time of night I sometimes use blue light blocking glasses. I turn lights off at night.

- I don't watch agitating or violent movies nor play agitating video games before bed. Often this extends into the daytime and it's helped me with my anxiety just to know that at certain times some things aren't good for my system.

- I sometimes drink a teaspoon of tart cherry juice. It's supposed to help with the production of melatonin.

- Weighted blankets are a recent addition, but they seem to help both with calming down before bed and staying asleep. I keep one near the couch and one in bed.

- I try to meditate when I can.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

DSGamer knows his stuff. I use blue light filters as well and try keep the lights off or low a few hours before bed time, the wavelengths of lighting in modern electronics are really not good for you in the evening. This compounded with the fact that sleeping in the early hours of the night, from 23:00 or so - are far more beneficial to your health than staying up late and sleeping in in the morning.

I'd also mention that pretty much any booze in your blood when you're asleep pretty much negates all beneficial aspects of sleeping.

I wake up around 05:45-6:00 each morning without a clock, no matter how late I get to bed, I wake up at the same time. Used to get to bed around midnight or one a clock and then was just tired all day. Nowadays I get to bed around 22:30 and wake up well rested.

About a year ago I switched to a graveyard shift at work. And to complicate things further my start time can range anywhere from 2pm to 10pm and it’s a 10 to 13 hour shift. Sleeping in the day has been mostly ok. I bought a really nice sleep mask and that really helps. Lately I feel like I’ve conditioned myself to quickly fall asleep after I put the mask on. This was totally unintentional, but it’s a benefit that I really enjoy.

I couldn't sleep last night, decided to try laying down in bed at 12:15ish. It was still not till 1ish before I fell asleep. Got up with the alarm at 5, trying going back to sleep afterwards since I have the day off for Borderlands 3, nope, body not having it.

Thanks for making the thread, Rawk!

I hope ThatGuy42 checks this thread out - I had a question about their situation. What I was wondering is if they always had a different sort of sleep pattern, or if it started in adulthood? When I was a kid and teen, and through college really, I was able to sleep incredibly well. I had no problems at all. I couldn't sleep in a car or plane (still can't, no matter how tired I am), but this insomnia started in my mid-20s and just hasn't ever stopped, going about 15 years now. Actually getting up in the night when I can't sleep is something I really should start doing, as even my doctor mentioned it.

DSGamer, thanks for the list of things that help you sleep, those are pretty good. I'm doing a number of them and I'll try to do more. Last night was the same as usual, went to sleep at 10:30, fell asleep very quickly, but then woke up at 12:30 for the first time, was awake for a short while, then it was just sleep and wake 3 or 4 more times during the rest of the night. That's pretty normal for me.

I've never been one to 'sleep' as such. I've struggled ever since I was born, so it's something I just kind of accepted as being part of who I am. In the last coupe of years I learned that listening to dudes droning on is like a tranquilliser to me. Idle Thumbs was a bedtime mainstay for me.

Earlier this year I discovered Sleep With Me which is designed to help the listener to focus their mind and let you fall asleep, but what I told other people about it they didn't like the guy's voice. So I figured what the hell, and decided to make a podcast where I drone on and help people fall asleep, and so far it's going quite well.

So if I can be allowed a small shill, check it out at sleepytimetales.net or just search 'sleepy time tales' in your podcast app of choice. It may help, it may not, but my listenership is growing and I've got a lot of positive feedback so it's worth a try.

I've always had a really hard time sleeping. As a kid, I would hit the sleep radio button, then an hour later hit it again, and some nights another time. There are plenty of times if I wake up in the night, I just can't get back to sleep for hours. I don't think I ever had a diagnosable issue, moreso environmental and internal patterns, but there are a few things that I've done in the past year or two that have really helped.

First off, I started using an iOS app called Ananda. It plays several layers of sounds, including binaural beats. I don't know if I totally bought into the claims, but it was a rich enough set of sounds that it completely occupied my mind and ceased the racing thoughts for several months before I acclimated. I still use it, but it doesn't shut off my brain like it used to. But it does now trigger the idea that it's time to sleep. Along with that, I got a bluetooth sleep mask to block out light and make the Ananda app easier to hear without bothering my wife.

But I actually think the thing that really turned my sleep around was adjusting my expectations and routines after reading The Power of When by Michael Breus. Like all books of this ilk, you have to take what works and ignore the rest, but it gave me a good framework to adjust my sleep schedule as well as reconsider how many hours I need to get each night. Oh, and probably the best thing I learned from it was about sleep cycles and timing sleep/wake to match so I'm not trying to wake out of the deeper parts of sleep. Matching that did wonders for my waking up more rested, and consequently made it easier to get to sleep the next night.

Yeah my sleep problems started in my early teens. I was actually in college when I got the sleep study done because I was having so many problems resting and subsequently focusing the next day to get my studies and tasks done. Also, I tend not to be the nicest person when I'm tired, so my lack of sleep was causing personal issues with my friends and family.

I use very similar tools and process to what's already been said in order to actually fall asleep. Rather than the sleep phones, I use a pillow speaker with either classical music, guided meditation, or a podcast on. @MrDevil909, I will definitely look into Sleepy Time Tales. I always stop drinking at least 3 hours before bedtime, but I often will either smoke pot or take a CBD gummy about an hour before I try to lie down. A lot of my issues have been partially alleviated by really listening to the signals my body sends. As such, I also "unwind" in other rooms and only actually get in bed when I can tell I'm ready to sleep. When I wake up in the middle of the night, I just get up and busy myself for an hour until I can tell I'm ready to go back down. If I do find myself tired during the day I find the "nap-a-latte" method really works for me. Drink a nice cup of coffee, then close my eyes and nap for 20 minutes. Wake up feeling refreshed and ready. I take that kind of a nap at least once a week during work.

A lot of my issues have been partially alleviated by really listening to the signals my body sends.

This is one of the biggest keys, IMO. Insomnia is frequently about getting stress about an inability to sleep. But really what it is for many of us is an inability to sleep when we prefer.

If you can do whatever possibly to sleep when your body wants to sleep things become a lot easier. I used to power through being sleepy to play games or whatever and now if I'm sleepy I go directly to sleep. If I'm tired I try to rest, etc.

"I don't know why I need this thread," said the man who fell asleep at 8:00 PM last night because he couldn't sleep the night before only to wake up at 11:00PM and then couldn't get back to sleep so he read for a few hours and finally nodded off about three hours before his alarm went off.

I lean on ASMR to help with sleeplessness (as well as anxiety). The calming influence and safe in this space nature help me to drift off, or at the very least feel rested and somewhat refreshed should sleep remain elusive.

Sleeplessness for me can range from being mentally and physically exhasted yet being unable to sleep. Even with peace of mind. Or waking up after a period of sleep (20 minutes, 45 minutes, 1 hour, 3 hours) to remain awake as an absolute depleted wreck before crashing hard before something (usually work) demands I rise and shine.

It is part hindrance on my part with night shift hours flipped to day time hours, and back, and forth. My marriage suffers if I stay on a job centric night pattern. My job output suffers if I stay on a socially suitable day pattern. So I bounce between the two.

If something or someone is on my mind due to a dishonorable act, or a spiteful act, etc, then I can get lost in emotional turmoil or a mental spiral. I cannot switch off. I need to solve it. I go down the rabbit whole of human cruelty and human dishonesty, trying to understand, hoping to cure or remedy. Although this has not happened for some time. Boundaries. The power of saying "no" and putting negative individuals, and manipulators, out of sight, out of mind. This has been mighty beneficial in many ways, sleep included.

RnRClown wrote:

I lean on ASMR to help with sleeplessness (as well as anxiety). The calming influence and safe in this space nature help me to drift off, or at the very least feel rested and somewhat refreshed should sleep remain elusive.

Not totally related, but do you get the "shivers" other people discuss? I did the first few times and it was kind of amazing. ASMR still relaxes me, but I have to listen to it *before* bed and not *in* bed. In bed it's more distracting than helpful these days.

We have a white noise machine, which I've found has helped me a little bit, at least with falling asleep the first time after turning out the light. It's a pretty nice one that can do various sounds from natural to stuff that sounds like an air conditioner. My favorite right now is "light rain".

I can't fall asleep at all to anything resembling music or people talking, no matter how boring or monotonous. I end up actually listening to it, listening for changes, for anything. I've always been that way though, going back to being a kid. I definitely fall into what RnRClown mentioned there sometimes, just getting stressed or angry thinking about various people or things happening in my life.

We have two cats that like to sleep on the bed with us, and I'm sort of afraid they're not helping me much. It would not be easy to keep them out of the bedroom at night, and the sounds they'd be making scratching and meowing at the door would be really bad. I'm wondering if part of my problem is the mattress. My wife and I have opposite preferences when it comes to mattress stiffness, and so we have basically something in the middle. I may pick up something to make my side softer and see if that helps.

Don't hesitate to ask your primary care about sleep disruption.

I used to really struggle with sleep disruption (hypersomnia, insomnia, nightmares, dreamless sleep, etc.) to the point other clinicians considered a possible Bipolar II diagnosis.

Finally, my wife brow beat me into getting a sleep study. Bam. Obstructive sleep apnea.

I got a full mask CPAP. f*cking changed my life. I am completely off psychiatric medications, I sleep an appropriate amount daily, and I don't feel like dog sh*t, all day, every day.

What makes me nuts is that I went through my whole military career with OAS. Dudes used to complain about my snoring all the time. I am sure the only reason it was even partially managed was due to my daily routine and physical health.

I had real bad insommnia due to depression and anxiety. Compounding this was working night shift for years, alcoholism, marijuana abuse and severe obstructive sleep apnea. I'd go for 3 or 4 days at a time w/o sleep. I wound up quitting my night job, mom went to managed care, went to sleep study, got a sleep machine and treated depression and anxiety.

My life completely changed when I started getting good sleep.

Spoilered for length and possible TMI:

Spoiler:

I've never been a great sleeper, and I've had some on-and off struggles with anxiety. I'd toss and turn and wake up multiple times throughout the night, and still feel tired in the morning, but I just thought that was normal.

Then, a couple years ago, I had a health scare. I tried to go to bed one night, but any time I lay down my heart rate would skyrocket and I felt like I couldn't breathe. I started to freak out. Was I having a heart attack? After a while I figured out that lying down exacerbated the issue so I ended up using pillows to prop myself upright on the couch to try and sleep. It didn't work very well. Eventually in the wee hours of the morning I gave up and went to the hospital.

I'll spare you the unpleasant details of my 8-hour stay in the emergency room, but after a few tests and a lot of sitting around and waiting I was eventually diagnosed with "viral pericarditis", which as far as I can tell is Doctor-speak for "patient shows symptoms of pericarditis, but I'll be f*cked if I can figure out why". In any case, whatever was causing those symptoms cleared up quickly, and it hasn't happened since. That part turned out fine.

What wasn't fine, was that during my stay at the hospital they also discovered that I had dangerously high blood pressure, and also some possible irregularities with my heart. I was referred to a cardiologist, and thus began an entire year of various heart-related tests that eventually ruled out everything and concluded that my heart was fine.
For the blood pressure, I was prescribed some medication to keep it under control. That's still ongoing but things are more or less under control.

That year seriously f*cked up my mental health, though. That first trip to the hospital kicked my anxiety into overdrive, and then I spent over a year not knowing if there was something wrong with my heart. Any time I felt a twinge of pain in my chest or left arm, or shortness of breath, or an irregular heartbeat? OH sh*t IT'S FINALLY HAPPENING. THIS IS HOW I DIE. What's worse, anxiety sometimes causes those very same symptoms! I was trapped in a vicious spiral of anxiety and hypochondria.

On top of that, I was TERRIFIED of sleep. This all started when I tried to go to sleep, so I was constantly afraid of having another episode. I was literally afraid to go to bed. I tried everything I could think of to calm myself down and/or tire myself out before going to bed, but as soon as my head hit the pillow my mind and my heart would both start racing. At least once a week I would spend an entire night lying awake in bed, desperately trying to fall asleep, terrified to look at a clock and see how much (or little) time was left until I had to get up in the morning.

I was trying everything I could think of to help me sleep. Chamomile tea, melatonin, meditation. I'd only watch relaxing TV in the evenings (food/cooking shows mostly), if any stressful situations occurred in the TV I was watching it could trigger a minor anxiety attack, which would trigger an even bigger anxiety attack when I realized I was getting too anxious to fall asleep. I tried listening to podcasts in bed, but they'd just wake me up whenever I started to drift off. Sometimes I tried sleeping on the couch just to change things up. Some of the above helped a little, but nothing really made a significant difference. In my lowest moments I turned to alcohol which was a terrible idea, both as a coping mechanism and as a sleep aid. At that point I was so desperate to sleep I was just trying to find a way to turn my brain off for a while.

During this time, one of the tests suggested by my cardiologist was a test for sleep apnea. I got a referral from my doctor to a sleep clinic, and they gave me some equipment for a take-home sleep test. They told me I they needed at least 6 hours of sleep data for the test to be useful.

Want to really f*ck with an insomniac? Strap a bunch of uncomfortable, unfamiliar medical equipment to their body and then tell them that they absolutely have to get 6 hours of sleep. I couldn't sleep AT ALL. I lay awake for 8 miserable hours. When I took the equipment back to the clinic the next day I was an exhausted, anxious mess. I apologized and explained that I hadn't been able to get any sleep. The specialist seemed skeptical, and loaded up the data to take a look anyway. After a quick look she showed me the output and explained that actually, I had been falling asleep! I was just having so many apnea/hypopnea events that I was waking up many times throughout the night. I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea.

I had been stuck in a cycle where the anxiety was making it hard for me to fall asleep, and every time I did fall asleep the apnea would just wake me up again, setting off another bout of anxiety and starting the whole miserable process over again. During those nights where I thought I was getting no sleep at all, I was actually falling asleep many times but only for very short spurts.

They started me on CPAP, and the results were immediately noticeable. I still had a lot of trouble falling asleep each night (the CPAP didn't help here, it feels REALLY weird at first), but once I did fall asleep I could actually stay asleep until morning. I was better rested, and after a while I slowly managed to stop feeling so afraid to go to sleep. Once I realized that now I could stay asleep once I fell asleep, going to bed seemed a lot less scary. Even if it took me 2 hours to fall asleep, once I was out I was out for the rest of the night. I gradually developed better coping strategies for the anxiety: it still flares up every now and then, but when it does I'm usually better equipped to ride it out until things get back to normal.

I honestly think CPAP saved my life. The way things were going before, it was probably only a matter of time before I had either a heart attack or a complete mental breakdown.

OG_slinger wrote:

"I don't know why I need this thread," said the man who fell asleep at 8:00 PM last night because he couldn't sleep the night before only to wake up at 11:00PM and then couldn't get back to sleep so he read for a few hours and finally nodded off about three hours before his alarm went off.

I feel you there. There are entire years where I just accept that as normal. Walk in door at night. Sleep for three to four hours. Maybe nap again, or not, for a few hours before the AM alarm goes off.

They say it's not good for anyone, blah-blah -- humans and their circadian rhythms-- blah-blah, but I strongly feel that in another life ima do night shift.

DSGamer wrote:
RnRClown wrote:

I lean on ASMR to help with sleeplessness (as well as anxiety). The calming influence and safe in this space nature help me to drift off, or at the very least feel rested and somewhat refreshed should sleep remain elusive.

Not totally related, but do you get the "shivers" other people discuss? I did the first few times and it was kind of amazing. ASMR still relaxes me, but I have to listen to it *before* bed and not *in* bed. In bed it's more distracting than helpful these days.

I do. I've grown to refer to these as "tingles" and they're fantastic. I do not always experience them. I presume this may be something that could see an immunity form, from overexposure. It helps that I can go without for days, if not a week or more. I also vary between creator, and styles. Whilst some simply don't experience autonomous sensory meridian response.

Without too severe a sidetrack - unless enough folks find it befitting as a sleep aid - I find both visual and auditory triggers help with calmness, and sleep. I like slow considered hand movements. I enjoy soft spoken to whispered content. I'm not too keen on mouth sounds. (My wife loathes these.) I get distracted by most weather effects. (My wife adores these.) I do not take to flirtatious or sexualized themes. It is more so that they cross personal boundaries - professional, trust, care, platonic - and nothing at all resembling outrage culture which can surround these choices. The oddest one I've stumbled upon, for me, that works, is video game controller sounds. With the correct environment, and timing, button presses, stick movements, and casing creak, really helps me to unwind and calm down.

Yeah, I'm definitely not partaking of ASMR for anything other than sleep. So I try to seek out videos that are more oriented to prompting relaxation.

I also like guided meditations like the ones this guy does.

I've suffered from insomnia for much of my life. Either not being able to fall asleep until 4 or 5am when I need to get up at 7 or 8am or falling asleep and then waking up and then not being able to get back to sleep. I'm a night owl for sure, I just feel better at 10pm than I do any other time of the day. That sucks, just when you feel like doing stuff, you need to wrap up your day and get to sleep.

One thing I found that helped huge was to quit ALL caffeine. I love tea and coffee! A couple of years ago I stopped drinking all caffeinated beverages. No coffee, tea, or soda. I allow myself one or two cups of decafeinated coffee in the morning and nothing else. You don't think that a cup of coffee you had at 10am will cause you sleep trouble at midnight, but it really does. It's just enough to keep you from totally relaxing. I think I'm just really sensitive to caffeine.

Also, nicotine and alcohol are killers for sleep. I found that if I have a cigar and scotch or a few hours before bed it really messes with my sleep. Had to cut that out on work nights.

I discovered ASMR this year. I used to experience it without knowing what it was when I would get quiet personal attention from teachers during class. I’ve found a few YouTube channels. There’s a lot of “roleplay” ones that I’m not really into but I do find some of them calming and relaxing when they’re just talking about something.

TAZ89 wrote:

One thing I found that helped huge was to quit ALL caffeine. I love tea and coffee! A couple of years ago I stopped drinking all caffeinated beverages. No coffee, tea, or soda. I allow myself one or two cups of decafeinated coffee in the morning and nothing else. You don't think that a cup of coffee you had at 10am will cause you sleep trouble at midnight, but it really does. It's just enough to keep you from totally relaxing. I think I'm just really sensitive to caffeine.

I haven't been able to bring myself to cut out all caffeine, especially because I *really* need it the mornings after a crappy night's sleep. I'd be a zombie without it. Also, I stopped smoking years ago and I just can't bring myself to get rid of the other half of the morning ritual I used to love.

I have, though, stopped drinking all caffeine after a cup or two of my morning joe. I've ditched sodas in favor of water and seltzers.

I've always been a night owl and I'm finding that that really messes with doing basic things like establishing consistent bedtimes and bedtime rituals. I hit a major slump in the late afternoon/early evening, but I get a second wind around 9:00 PM. While everyone else seems to be powering down at that point in the evening, I'm suddenly full of energy. If I try a pre-midnight bedtime I know I'm just going to be laying there in the dark.

And the things that I do like to do to wind down--read on my Kindle or maybe catch up on a couple of games of Words with Friends on my phone--tends to lead to other bullsh*t screen time.

I used to have a problem falling asleep due to my mind just thinking about things. I now take zzquil every night. I take it about an hour before I go to bed and it helps me fall asleep much easier. it also helps me go back to sleep if I wake up in the middle of the night when that may have been a problem befiore.

Here’s a typical sleep session for me: I work at night. Sleep in the day. On Thursday I planned out 5 hours for sleep. I know that seems unhealthy but I’ve been working 13 hour shifts so it’s really the best I can do. Darkened the room. Sleep mask on. Unconscious at about 9am. About one hour later, wake up to pee. Back to sleep. 45 minutes afterward, wake up to pee. Slightly more than 3 hours left to sleep. Go unconscious for what feels like 10 minutes then wake up to alarm. That 10 minutes was actually 3 hours 15 minutes. It’s now 2pm. I need to leave for work in 90 minutes. In that time I do some house cleaning, make my dinner (lunch box), eat lunch, get myself ready and go.

The waking up to pee multiple times is frustrating. That’s way more often than I pee when I’m awake. I hadn’t had caffeine or alcohol. All I’d drank was some low sugar soda and some water. It doesn’t seem normal.

I feel fine and can function normally with this schedule, but when I look at it on paper, it seems unhealthy. I try not to worry about it, but I feel like I’m setting myself up for some sort of failure. I know that I should ask a doctor and not a group of trusted internet friends but...

Does anyone in this thread have any opinions about what I’ve just described?

Been suffering from insomnia since I become a parent 8-years-ago. It really sucks.

I've had severe chronic insomnia for roughly 12 years now. By severe chronic, I mean that every night I take medication to get to sleep. Due to weight gain, I also have apnea and use a CPAP.

For a while I used Ambien. The great side-effect was vivid, memorable dreams. The bad side-effect (from my wife's POV, not mine) was I acted goofy drink for about 30-45 minutes before falling asleep. Eventually Ambien wasn't keeping me asleep through the night.

For several years I used Temazepam which worked very well. Eventually I was switched off of it because of other medication changes.

It actually feels better to know so many others are experiencing this horrible problem too. Rawk, I'm not sure I have opinions on what you described, but everything I've read has said that working at night is just bad for people. Being up to work through the night and sleeping through the day is just not how humans are supposed to be. I think a doctor really might be your best option, to see if they have any suggestions for someone that has to work the night shift. I typically don't wake up to pee, though that did happen last night for some reason.

micklism wrote:

Been suffering from insomnia since I become a parent 8-years-ago. It really sucks.

Same here - my sleep problems really started in earnest when my son was born. It took him almost two years to start sleeping through the night, but once he did, for some reason I did not. He's 15 now. A super stressful personal life definitely didn't help either, but that story is all in the divorce thread. I'm afraid I've just lost the benefit of a good night's sleep for good.

Ahh! I started reading this thread, a little while ago, and I’ve woken up at 03:00, each of the past 4 nights..... even better, last night was 03:11, again at 04:23, and again at 05:23. Each time was a good 10-15 minutes to fall back asleep.

Y’all are bad for my sleep.